Sycamore for framing

[robbshowe]

Hi Folks
I have been given the chance of more than a 100 sycamore trees that are being felled locally. Has anyone tried using this wood for framing and how suitable was it? If not suitable for framing then what?

[Dodgy Loner]

Welcome to the forum !  Since you're writing from across the pond, I assume that when you say sycamore you mean sycamore maple (Acer pseudoplatanus), and not London planetree (Platanus x hybrida).  I am not a timber framer, so I'll wait for some others to chime in hear, but maple should make a fine framing timber, while planetree would not.  Planetree (which is what we call sycamore, FYI), has spiral grain that could wreak havoc on your structure, because it will twist as it dries.

[Stumpkin]

I have used Sycamore for some framing timbers but it wouldn't be my first choice. Sycamore trees grow big along the river bottoms and get twisted back and forth by the wind causing spiral grain and ring shake.
Sycamore wood is supposed to be good for cutting boards because it wont pick up food odor.   

[Dodgy Loner]

As I mentioned above, Stumpkin, I'm pretty sure that the tree he's referring to is actually a maple.  What's your opinion of hard maple as a framing timber?  The spiral grain in American sycamore is actually controlled by genetics rather than the environment - they will have spiral grain when grown in any conditions.

[Stumpkin]

I have also used Hard (Sugar)Maple and Red Maple for timbers, but I would not use Soft Maple (Silver) or Ashleaf Maple (Boxelder).
I used a little bit of everything when I built my shop back in '94.  Red Oak, White Oak, Black Walnut, Butternut, American (Grey)Elm, Red (Slippery) Elm, Hickory, Pecan, Ash, Black Cherry, Honey Locust, Linden (Basswood), White Pine, Redbud, Blue Beach (Hornbeam), Osage (Hedge), and Sycamore.
The Sycamore is the only one I wouldn't use again.

Tom

[Dodgy Loner]

Your shop is more diverse than many forests ;D.  I bet the pecan, hornbeam, and osage were pretty tough to cut joints in.  I've heard bad thing about using sycamore as a framing timber from others on the forum as well.  What's the problem with soft maple, though? 

[Stumpkin]

I have been told that Soft Maples are to weak for timber framing. From my experience cleaning up after the ice storms we have, I wouldn't want to use it or Cottonwood.
The Pecan and Osage wasn't to hard to work when green, the Hornbeam was tho. I guess thats why some call it Ironwood or Muselewood. It has spiral grain too.

[robbshowe]

Hi folks

Thanks again for those taking the time to offer advice.  I'll have to check with those more knowledgeable about the botanic name for our locally grown Sycamore and let you know. This might clarify the relevance of the advice given.  Given the price for these trees is right (free but for the cost of haulage!) I may take a chance and make a small Summerhouse with it to see how it goes.  I'll keep you posted on any developments.

[Dodgy Loner]

Beautiful frame, Stumpkin!  In regards to the strength of soft maple, some species compare very favorably with some of the other woods you have used.  The U.S. Forest Products Laboratory reports the following strengths for common timbers (recorded in modulus of elasticity (MOE)):

Pignut hickory 2.26
Sugar maple: 1.83
White oak: 1.78
White ash: 1.74
Pecan: 1.73
Black walnut: 1.68
Red maple: 1.64 (this is a soft maple)
Red oak: 1.64
Honeylocust: 1.63
Slippery elm: 1.49
Black cherry 1.49
Basswood: 1.46
Bigleaf maple: 1.45 (the west-coast soft maple)
Eastern white pine: 1.24
Butternut: 1.18
Silver maple: 1.14 (another soft maple)
Cottonwood: 1.10

Silver maple is in the bottom of the pack, but better than the cedars which range from 0.80 (Atlantic white-cedar) to 1.11 (Western redcedar), and not much worse than butternut or white pine. 

[Stumpkin]

Redbud was fairly soft too, but I've never found any numbers listed for it.

Where does Sycamore fall in this comparison?

[Dodgy Loner]

Sycamore: 1.42

I think sycamore would be plenty strong, but the spiral grain could cause some problems.  I know a framing timber is a little bit different from a 1" board, but I've sawn sycamore boards that looked like airplane propellers when they got finished drying

I don't think you'll find numbers for smaller trees, like redbud and hornbeam, because they're not commonly used for structural applications.

[Brad_bb]

I was just looking up properties for American Sycamore the other day.  I was particularly looking at yeild stress and hardness.  It looked really good, about only 30 percent less than white oak, and 70 percent better than yellow poplar.  But if it has the problems mentioned, then it may not be good for timberframing.  I'm sure it's fine for furniture.  I saw some beautiful grain pics of the quarter sawn on here awhile back.  I wouldn't mind cutting some and experimenting with it though.
   Silver maple is common here in Illinois.  I wouldn't use it at all in timberframing.  It's very soft and not strong.  i have some in the yard and I end up cleaning up the big branches after a strong annual storm.  Too soft for most uses.
   

[robbshowe]

Thanks again for advice. For the records - Sycamore grown in the UK is Acer Pseudoplantus which is apparently from the Maple family as was suggested earlier in this thread.

[Dodgy Loner]

Acer psedoplatanus is a soft maple, but the US Forest Service lists the average MOE at 1.42, which is comparable to many of the framing timbers used in the U.S., such as American elm (1.34), southern red oak (1.49), baldcypress (1.44), interior Douglas-fir (1.49), and pitch pine (1.43).  It should make a fine framing timber.  Good luck with your project, and be sure to post some pictures of your progress if you get a chance .

[Stumpkin]

  I know a framing timber is a little bit different from a 1" board, but I've sawn sycamore boards that looked like airplane propellers when they got finished drying.

The two pieces of Sycamore that I used on top of the wall on the right side of the picture above, didn't give me any problems. I boxed the heart of a log just big enough to saw out two 12' - 6x8 girts's. Then I ripped a 2" x 2", 45 degree backing angle on the top outside edge. I didn't have any problems with the Sycamore moving or twisting. The piece of Red Elm I tried to use on the other side went wild after I cut the backing angle, and after the other joinery was finished of course, and was turned into 3' cribbing blocks! The other piece of sycamore I used is a 10' - 8x8 corner post boxed from heart of the butt log of the same tree. None of the boards that came off it were good for anything but firewood.

The Sycamore timbers are holding up well after 14 years of winter heating and hot humid midwest summers. I can't say that wood movement has been a problem at all. The tree I used was grown in a sheltered area and had little if any spiral grain. I was concerned about the ring shake that I see in larger diameter Sycamore trees so I used as small of diameter logs as I could and boxed the heart for the timbers. If you choose your Sycamore or Maple logs carefully to avoid the defects they will work just fine for timbers.

[Raphael]

The Pecan and Osage wasn't to hard to work when green, the Hornbeam was tho. I guess thats why some call it Ironwood or Muselewood. It has spiral grain too.

I haven't seen any ironwood large enough for timbers here, but what little I've done with it has convinced me it's a peg only wood.  Your shop is a little like my house, I've got eight or so species in the frame.

[submarinesailor]

Dodgy,

Could you post the list again, but this time include Yellow Poplar.  My place is full of it - a pasture that has overgrow for about 35+ years.

bruce