Post from center of log or edge?

[samandothers]

Neighbor plans to build a gazebo. He has found 2 cedar trees that are down and are free.  He indicates they are 20" to 24" at the butt of the trees.  My question is when milling these and creating 6"x6" posts. 
Is it best to cut the posts so the heart of the tree is in the middle of the posts?  This could be accomplished by taking the posts from logs near the top of the trees.
Or, is it ok to cut post such that they don't contain the heart?  My thoughts are to cut the post so the heart is centered in them. The only reason for asking is the thought of cutting the butts only 8' long making it easier to load. 
Loading the logs will be fun!   No equipment other than equipment trailer, going armed with Chains, jacks, saws come alongs.

[Ianab]

You want your posts with either the pith centred OR completely free of the pith.

So if the log was big enough, maybe 20" SMALL end, you could cut one post with the heart centred, and 4 from around it with no heart involved.

What you need to avoid is leaving the pith on one side or corner of your post, that's likely to move. So don't try splitting a smaller log to make 2 or 4 posts.

Ian

[shelbycharger400]

currious as to what everyone will say
other than that..
loading anything 12 in dia and more , at 8 ft long...
bring a friend!
i have a hard time finding help,  i have put a short log under the big log and created a T,  back the truck up, if i can pick the log up i do, then grab the opposite end and push it in the truck.
other times.. i position the short log just so,  grab the outside end, and flipping it up, standing it on end and quick push over end into the truck. being careful to stand off to one side so if and when it comes back i dont get hit. 

note..  12 to 15 in dia,  8ft long, can be 200 to 400 lb.
Hopefully jeff can chime in where he found the numbers for weight .Not shure but it seems the spruce weight is on the light side on the calculator .   personally i know i can pick up 200 lbs if i tried hard enough, also, i have found some with same diameter, close to same length, all sound with no rot,  and the weight was way diffent.    3 wks ago,  i found a blue spruce log at 6 ft long 14in dia at big end... i had to try 3 different times and several different things before i was able to get it in the truck. i had to shallow pivot the thing. almost had to dig a hole to polevault it.
their was 4 or 5 more their to get...i scratched that idea and said IM done .
looking at getting some sort of crane for the truck now.

[Brucer]

I recommend FOHC (free of heart center) for 6x6 that are going to be exposed to the elements. If the pith is anywhere in the timber at least one face will crack. If water gets into the crack regularly, it will not dry out quickly enough and the wood will start to rot.

Most of the contractors and timber framers I work with use FOHC when exposed to the elements, and often for decorative interior applications such as newel posts. In basements and covered decks, or where a rustic look is the goal, they will ask me to center the heart.

[Ianab]

Agree with Brucer, if you can cut totally free of heart it's usually better. But on a smaller log, keep the heart centred and just live with the checking.

So if you can move the butt logs cut off at 8ft, and make some free of heart posts out of them, that's the way to go.

Ian

[hackberry jake]

Chances are with erc, a 20" butt means a 10" top. You will have to center the heart. Erc is very forgiving though, I cut centered heart 6x6s for my saw shed and they haven't checked yet. They will check quickly if left in the sun though.

[bama20a]

You want your posts with either the pith centred OR completely free of the pith.

So if the log was big enough, maybe 20" SMALL end, you could cut one post with the heart centred, and 4 from around it with no heart involved.

What you need to avoid is leaving the pith on one side or corner of your post, that's likely to move. So don't try splitting a smaller log to make 2 or 4 posts.

Ian
Does this hold true with all types of wood or just cedar ? Mark......

[WDH]

The wood around the pith is called juvenile wood.  It shrinks more than the wood toward the outside of the tree called mature wood.  This differential shrinkage sets up the stresses that lead to splits and cracks.  Also, mature wood does not shrink along its length, but juvenile does just a little, so a post with pith on one edge will likely develop a side-bend and not stay straight.  That is why if the post contains the pith, the pith should be centered.  It is best to make the post closest to the outside of the log where the mature wood is to minimize the adverse drying stress from the juvenile wood.

[okmulch]

Most cedar posts have the pith in the center, that is how I have sawed most of the cedar logs in my life. One of the main reasons is that cedar diameters are smaller then other species and it would be hard to get posts out of the sides. Another reason is there are usually more defect on outside of logs like ingrown bark.

Most people want the pretty red color as the center any way because it is more rot resistant.

[samandothers]

You guys are great to help with education!  Thanks all for the replies!  We did get the logs home today.  We took my tractor and used it to move the brush and to load the logs.  The logs were in somewhat disappointing shape.  There is some heart rot at the base of one  and the same log has a lot of lobes in it.    The tree had limbs split down and top broken in past years so it may not yield much lumber or post.  The second tree was somewhat better but not as large a diameter. The butt log has some rot in the heart that is not a big but runs up through the log.  There is enough logs to get 4 to 6 posts.  2 x lumber will be limited. 

Glad we took the tractor.  One log the tractor struggled to lift over the fender wells of the trailer.  The other logs were not bad.  Put the two butt logs on the trailer, they were about 15 to 16 log.  We loaded the others around them.  When we arrived home we were able roll all but the two butt logs off the sides of the trailer.  We wrapped a chain around them and up about 6 feet on an oak and pulled the trailer out from under them.

Once we retunred and picked up the tractor we were able to move the logs around.  Now we'll just need to await the arrival of the mill to cut'em up.

[sigidi]

Down here 6x6 posts cannot have heart in them by code - minimum is 7x7 and best size for boxed heart post is 8x8. My experience with logs down here is they are too small to get free of heart and free of sapwood 6x6 out of. 24" is minimum diameter for cutting 4x4 put of, bigger the posts goes, much bigger the log needs to go. personally I'd say saw as much lumber as you can get from them and source the posts elsewhere

[Cedarman]

ERC is completely different than most other woods.
The wood shrinks the least of all woods here in the east when it dries because it has such a relatively low moisture content in the heartwood.  Most times 25 to 30 per cent.  Sapwood can he quite wet though.
OK mulch and I used to put out 10,000 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 x 8' cedar posts per month at peak production.  Most would have heart centered, some would be 3 1/2 x 7 that were cut in 1/2 and some were 7x7 that were quartered. Very seldom was there any bowing.  Didn't matter where the heart was at.
Now aesthetics were something else with one white sapwood corner.
ERC does not have a pith as most other woods do.  It does have a center though.

[samandothers]

Sigidi and Cedarman
Thanks for the additional info.  We will need to evaluate what we can get out of the logs we have.  Probably will need to make decision on how we cut the posts or lumber after we start sawing and see how good the wood is.  I think once we remove the outside slabs we will have a better idea.  I think post will have the heart in tme.  I don't think the logs are going to be large enough to get free of heart posts.

[jwillett2009]

I'll throw in my two cents... I have been experimenting with centering pith in my 4x4 and 6x6. I am cutting small logs (<14" on large ends) some as small as 5 or 6 inches. I made a 4x4 and then intentionally left it in the sun on top of a pile for over a month or so. It did check, but in a minor way, and you can put a straight edge on any side and it's still perfect.... It hasn't twisted a 1/32".

[beenthere]

jwillitt
Toss two more cents at us and let us know what species you experimented with. 

[WDH]

I bet that it was not sweetgum or sycamore or hackberry  .

[hackberry jake]

Ddidnt you mean "or elm" WDH? Because we all know how awesome hackberry is.  8)

[CalebL]

Ddidnt you mean "or elm" WDH? Because we all know how awesome hackberry is.  8)

What do you do with hackberry?  I had a guy try to give me a bunch of it and sugarberry. 

[LeeB]

Ddidnt you mean "or elm" WDH? Because we all know how awesome hackberry is.  8)

Hackberry is actually a member of the elm family and shares many of the contrary traits comman to the elms.

[hackberry jake]

I just use it for building material, but I would like to build something pretty out of it one of these days. I like the light color. Poor mans maple maybe?

[CalebL]

I just use it for building material, but I would like to build something pretty out of it one of these days. I like the light color. Poor mans maple maybe?

It's hardness ranks between Red and Silver Maple.  I haven't cut any of it yet because to be honest, I didn't know what to do with it or if anyone would be interested in buying it. 

[tyb525]

Just like any other wood, you can make anything out of it, but some woods are better than others for certain things. Sometimes it's neat to use an uncommonly used wood

Some questionable woods such as hackberry, elm, sweetgum, etc., can still make very nice lumber. But it has the capability to warp like crazy too ;)

[beenthere]

I just use it for building material, but I would like to build something pretty out of it one of these days. I like the light color. Poor mans maple maybe?

It's hardness ranks between Red and Silver Maple.  I haven't cut any of it yet because to be honest, I didn't know what to do with it or if anyone would be interested in buying it.

The OP asked about cedar. Are the two quotes here referring to cedar or some of the hardwoods mentioned??  The reference to "it" leaves a question as to what "it" is.. ;)

[WDH]

I believe that they reference hackberry or sugarberry (it takes an expert to tell them apart, and some of the experts say that they are just one variable species, not two).

jwillet still has not told us which species his straight post was from, so we went off on a spiral grain tangent.

[LeeB]

I'm truly agast that something like that could happen here.