How to Mill New Old Large SYP

[widetrackman]

A lot of the old pines I am cutting are around 26 in. have a 8'  butt log and maybe 1 or 2 more with approx 9"+ cap of tight rings approx 6 or better per inch. Should I grade mill boards from the cap, boxing the pith. then Mill the remaining cant for whatever lumber I can get. Don't know if I am describing all this right as all I have is what I read and may be confused.

[kelLOGg]

Got a picture of it. That would help get more responses.

[widetrackman]

Got a picture of it. That would help get more responses.

Do not know how, might be too old.

[Stephen1]

I have been going down that road lately as I havr been sawing some B & B siding for cusomers from large EWP. I am starting to pull off the #1 boards with no knots good grain that can be sold for more than B&B siding. Value adding the prie of simple pine.  Then as you get to the heart you find knots so saw it in to B&B

[widetrackman]

Well to make it simple, I am trying to find out about heart wood of these large SYP (Loblolly ?). The last time this area was planted was in 1956 funded by USFS/CC. and some may have been there before then. The ones I have cut have a light color, about 6" heart with 1/4-3/16"  rings and then 9-10" of heart with 6 or so rings to the sapwood? Most of the trees are 50+ feet before limbs. I need advice how to mill this 9-10 heart for best wood, waste does not matter. Mean time I need a camera and try to learn how to post. Hope all this makes sense.

[btulloh]

When you get into that 8" heart you'll start seeing some knots before you get too far.  Mostly pin knots, some a little bigger, just depends.  Something to keep in mind. 

It sounds like you have a fair number of trees, it could be useful to saw a few logs as test subjects and see exactly what's gonna come out.  Maybe grade saw a log or two, quarter saw a couple, etc.  It'll give a better feel for what the heart may yield. 

I think it's been said a few posts back, but an 8 or 9 inch heart at with that ring spacing is not going to be like old growth heart pine.  Like Southside said, quarter sawn and rift grain makes good flooring.

[widetrackman]

When you get into that 8” heart you’ll start seeing some knots before you get too far.  Mostly pin knots, some a little bigger, just depends.  Something to keep in mind.

It sounds like you have a fair number of trees, it could be useful to saw a few logs as test subjects and see exactly what’s gonna come out.  Maybe grade saw a log or two, quarter saw a couple, etc.  It’ll give a better feel for what the heart may yield.

I think it’s been said a few posts back, but an 8 or 9 inch heart at with that ring spacing is not going to be like old growth heart pine.  Like Southside said, quarter sawn and rift grain makes good flooring.

Yea I know it's not like old heart pine but thought I could be real selective and get the best out of these large trees and get some real nice flooring the wife might ok. When I bought this track in  1984 most of the pines planted in 1956 had just been cut (stolen). However 2/3 of the track most of hardwood and mixed pine was not touched, also there were lots of pines that were missed or to small to cut from the plantation in '84. That's why I have these scattered very large pines and some 25 that are to big for me to deal with at 35-36" DBH. It would take me years to harvest and Mill all the large pines (1000s BF). Did Southside suggest to quarter and rift large pines for the best absolute flooring. Again I am not worried about waste. BTW replanted stolen part in '84 and they are still growing.

[btulloh]

Sounds like you've got plenty of nice pines to work with. Some test sawing will tell you what's going to come out of them much better than us all speculating. That also means you'll have samples to show the boss and find out what she thinks.  

I thought @Southside said that earlier in the topic, but I see he hasn't even had a reply here.  I know he makes a lot of syp flooring that is qtr and rift sawn.I do know he's stated that preference before in other similar discussions.  There are some benefits to the rift and quarter sawn, but there are also many people that prefer flatsawn for the more interesting grain. Just comes down to personal preference. Flat sawn takes a little more care to avoid cupping, but properly dried, planed, molded, and installed it will be fine.

[Southside]

If you want the best SYP possible to make from modern logs then you need big, clear, logs and yes saw them so the grain is 90 degrees to the band. 

The size of the log will determine how wide your flooring can be and still keep the vertical grain orientation. 

You will find that the jacket lumber is what will give you the best quality, once you get into the juvenile wood knots increase dramatically and the lumber moves a lot when drying.  I still get some from the juvenile section, but the pieces get shorter to cut out the knots. 

I am on my phone so I can't see your location but if you are within striking distance of my place I would be happy to show you how I break down the logs to maximize quality and reduce loss. It's a different procedure than typical QS. 

[widetrackman]

If you want the best SYP possible to make from modern logs then you need big, clear, logs and yes saw them so the grain is 90 degrees to the band.

The size of the log will determine how wide your flooring can be and still keep the vertical grain orientation.

You will find that the jacket lumber is what will give you the best quality, once you get into the juvenile wood knots increase dramatically and the lumber moves a lot when drying.  I still get some from the juvenile section, but the pieces get shorter to cut out the knots.

I am on my phone so I can't see your location but if you are within striking distance of my place I would be happy to show you how I break down the logs to maximize quality and reduce loss. It's a different procedure than typical QS.

Thanks Southside for the input. I earlier talked about 9-10" cap, which I should have said Jacket ( still learning). Most of what I have down, the butt log at stump is 24-29" and they adv 9-10 jacket with not less than 6 or better rings/in. They all go a easy 50'-55' clear to the first limb (crown) What I want to do is Mill the absolute best flooring no matter how slow and reduce waste without sacrificing quality. Sooo what I am trying to do is learn some techniques which is hard without hands on. When you say 90 degrees to the band isn't that quarter sawing? Thanks again.

[Southside]

The result is the same, but the method I use to achieve it is different than what you will see posted. With traditional QS all of your lumber ends up a different width. With my flooring I need consistent width so I break the log down into 5 cants and move the taper to the juvenile cant. This gives me consistent size and less grain run out, but it takes a big log. 

I guess I sort of merged traditional quarter sawing and the RRRQS method to develop my own VGP (Vertical Grain Pine) method. 

[Stephen1]

I can learn something here!
I saw a lot of large EWP up here and would like to be able to saw VGP. I get it sometimes but not enough. What size logs? 20" + or do they have to be larger?

[Southside]

A 20" log will give you nice 5" finished VGP or really nice 4" without encountering any more waste than if you grade sawed the log.  My rule of thumb is to keep the finished product under 6" wide, most of it is 3"-5" as the wider you go the more the grain will drift away from vertical and towards rift.  With the proud grain in SYP it doesn't take much and the appearance tattle tales on you. 

[widetrackman]

A 20" log will give you nice 5" finished VGP or really nice 4" without encountering any more waste than if you grade sawed the log.  My rule of thumb is to keep the finished product under 6" wide, most of it is 3"-5" as the wider you go the more the grain will drift away from vertical and towards rift.  With the proud grain in SYP it doesn't take much and the appearance tattle tales on you.

Well browsing FF old post I ran across a old Post by WHD Using Modified Quartersawing Method on Pine. I understand how he does it, and think it would give similar results as your procedure, I think?? One thing I did not understand of WDH post was; if necessary use toe board to level pith to bed, open 1st face with toe up if needed, rotate 180, open the next 3 faces  with toe board in original position? Then do you rotate the 1st face back up (on top) and re level the pith with bed and then saw?? One other thing is how much oversize do I Mill the boards on width and depth to compensate for drying and planning tongue/grooving. I assume finished std. pine flooring is 3/4 inch. Man for a newbie there's soooo much to learn. ??? Thanks

[Southside]

I don't drop my toe boards until I start breaking down the individual cants, there will be five, and the pith cant will be a giant wedge.

Typically I saw my flooring blanks at 1 1/16" thick and 1"-1.5" over width. QS pine will tend to crook or side slip as it dries so leaving width allows you to clean that up later and end up with longer boards as a result. 

[WDH]

You use the toe boards to make the pith the same distance to the bed on both ends. When you flip 180 degrees, you drop the toe boards because you have already leveled the pith on those two faces.  Repeat for the other two faces.  

[widetrackman]

Thanks Guys' it's time to saw and see what happens . 

[Stephen1]

You use the toe boards to make the pith the same distance to the bed on both ends. When you flip 180 degrees, you drop the toe boards because you have already leveled the pith on those two faces.  Repeat for the other two faces.  

I have the pith leveled 4 sides......now how do I break down the cant?

[WDH]

You saw out a couple of boards out of the center of the cant.  These center cut boards will be quartersawn/vertical grain and will contain the juvenile core.  You can edge the juvenile core out of these boards or leave it in.

Now you have a top piece and a bottom piece after you saw out a couple of the cant center boards.  If your log is big enough, the top and bottom pieces will be at least 5 or more inches thick now.  Flip the top and bottom pieces (cants) 90°, saw halfway to the bed, flip 180° to relieve stress, and continue sawing to the bed. You will get 90% vertical grain boards.  

[Stephen1]

You saw out a couple of boards out of the center of the cant.  These center cut boards will be quartersawn/vertical grain and will contain the juvenile core.  You can edge the juvenile core out of these boards or leave it in.

Now you have a top piece and a bottom piece after you saw out a couple of the cant center boards.  If your log is big enough, the top and bottom pieces will be at least 5 or more inches thick now.  Flip the top and bottom pieces (cants) 90°, saw halfway to the bed, flip 180° to relieve stress, and continue sawing to the bed. You will get 90% vertical grain boards.  

Perfect. Thank you. Now I know what the 'juvenile' means. With the pine youre right you can leave the juvenile wood in, but not with a hardwood. I do that my large RO logs also. I like YH method but then I have to edge a lot of boards and I do not have the edger.