I purchased the new LX55 electric mill from woodmizer. It seems my electric will not handle this mill according to woodmizer. They said there are 22 other mills out there and have had no problems with them. Does anybody know of anyone personally that has one? I find it hard to believe my electric is not sufficient. I even talked to my electric supplier and their engineer told me the power is more than sufficient for this motor. I guess I will need to go with a gas mill.
Welcome to the Forum. What electric service do you have? Volts, # of amps available, and Hz (don't know where you are) What did Woodmizer say was the requirement for the mill?
Also what problems are you having.
I have Orange n Rockland in NY. My voltage sits at 238 and drops to 217. Woodmizer says it can't drop bellow 220 but the plate on the motor is rated at 220! You're allowed a 10% drop so I believe the plate rating is wrong. The motor won't kick out of start mode. Stays slow. Eventually it starts kicking up after several tries but this will eventually burn starter up. I believe it should have a clutch to engage like a gas motor. With the V belt off and no load it starts perfectly
What size wire are you running and for how many feet? That's a significant voltage loss and usually a sign of an undersized feed wire.
#6 wire 20' And I took house out of equation. Hooked it directly to my service. Still doesn't work. I have a hard time believing no other people have this problem. Their first answer was sending me a new motor. That didn't work ...
How many amps is the motor pulling under load and unloaded? Not following you on the second motor. You have tried two different motors with the same result? Also is that #6 copper or aluminum?
How many amps does this draw? Should be on the plate.
There's always a possibility of problems on the power company side of things. Can you check the voltage drop right at the service panel? Sometimes the connections at the transformer get corroded or even loose. Maybe try it with the motor unloaded too.
For a 7 hp should be around 40 amp draw 220
I worked in a shop once where we had crazy power issues, one leg would go too high as I recall and sometimes we had one leg go too low. We put buck/boost transformers on all the machines and life got real easy after that. AT one time I was well versed in figuring out the install on those, but now I don't remember squat. ;D it was 25 years ago. AT any rate, this may solve your voltage issue, but you would need a real electrician to go through the numbers and spec a transformer for you, not some guy who slept in a holiday a couple of decades ago. :D
Just a thought.
What size is the motor? How far away is the pole transformer? Remember voltage drop starts at the transformer, if it is too far away. :'(
Whew! This took off. 🤣 I really appreciate all the feedback. But I have a top of the pay scale trouble shooting electrician. A utility worker and utility engineer plus a friend that installed sewage plants for cities. So we have covered all bases and then some. Really wanted to find someone else that purchased this mill and ask how it works for them. Again thanks to everyone again. 👍
What brand of electric motor is it
Quote from: Billmaz on June 19, 2020, 02:33:42 PM
Whew! This took off. 🤣 I really appreciate all the feedback. But I have a top of the pay scale trouble shooting electrician. A utility worker and utility engineer plus a friend that installed sewage plants for cities. So we have covered all bases and then some. Really wanted to find someone else that purchased this mill and ask how it works for them. Again thanks to everyone again. 👍
Yeah, this a knowledgeable bunch and glad to help. Just the nature of the FF membership.
You have quite a team there to cover all the bases except the motor itself.
Being fairly new, there are only a few LX55 owners here and I can't remember if any have the electric version or not. Some LT15 owners here run electric. Maybe the same motor, maybe not.
With that team it sounds like you've eliminated everything but the motor itself. Hard to imagine two could have the same problem, but things do happen. Woodmizer is known for outstanding service, so no doubt they will do whatever is necessary to resolve the problem. They are probably perplexed at this point.
Hopefully an LX55 electric owner will see this and weigh in. I'll be mighty curious to hear what the problem is when it's resolved. Good luck and keep us informed.
Quote from: Billmaz on June 19, 2020, 02:33:42 PM
Whew! This took off. 🤣 I really appreciate all the feedback. But I have a top of the pay scale trouble shooting electrician. A utility worker and utility engineer plus a friend that installed sewage plants for cities. So we have covered all bases and then some. Really wanted to find someone else that purchased this mill and ask how it works for them. Again thanks to everyone again. 👍
That's great, he should be able to get the problem figured out in short order and my money is on something simple.
When I built my house and shop I had the power company place the transformer next to the shop but the house is almost 300 feet from the transformer. I ran voltage drop calculations and was concerned about voltage drop to the house. Next step was to talk with the power company. My transformer has several different taps to compensate for voltage drop. They wired the transformer on the highest voltage tap to help at the house. At the shop I get 246 volts and at the house 242 volts.
220 volt systems disappeared years ago.
Motors made in Italy. I'm returning it and getting 14hp gas. I can't invest any more time into this one.
Bill, Is it possible there is a problem with the mill? Maybe bearings to tight? When the blade is off try rotating all parts? Try #4 wire and see if that makes it go?
Sounds like you didnt get your main question answered, who else has one (electric)?
I would call Woodmizer, get to the customer service manager if necessary, and have them give you contact information for a couple of customers who have the electric motor.
Woodmizer NY actually sent a tech to put a new motor on it. He said everything moves just fine. A flag went up in my head when he noticed it has heavier wheels than he has seen on some bigger models. I asked if it's possible they put wrong wheels on it? He said nah... So maybe again— bad design! I would love to talk to other customers. Ohh and get this...6 weeks to get a gas replacement!!!!! 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
So the company sent out a repair man, at their expense, will take back the mill, at their expense, from the sounds of it you have not diagnosed your electrical service, and you want to make the claim that the mill has a "bad design"? This is not the place to be bashing a product manufacturer, especially when the only support you have is an unsupported opinion.
As far as the 6 weeks go, really not unreasonable at all. The supply chain world is still messed up, companies have work restrictions placed upon them to deal with, and their product is in demand. You want a custom floor from me, you are going to wait 6 or more weeks right now.
Woah easy! Southside got up on the wrong side. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute. I did have my service diagnosed by the utility engineer and a trouble shooting electrician. Nothing wrong with my power. I waited 6 weeks for first machine at 6000.00. Then invested another 30000.00 in prep between electric and site work for it. Now it doesn't work. So I have to wait 6 more weeks before I make a dime. Now on top of that I just wanted to talk to someone who has one working. Obviously I believe in woodmizer or I wouldn't be getting another one. I just believe they have an engineering problem. So...it may be on their dime witch ummm it should be. But I've got a dime in it too!! Oh and this trouble shooting has been going on for a month! If you owned one of these and it worked you would have a leg to stand on. Otherwise shhhhhhh.
So what's the engineering problem?
I would say the motor is under powered to start with the load of the wheels and tension of the blade. If I take all belts off it starts fine. If I turn it on and off several times it begins to work faster due to everything warming up. If this had a clutch you could engage after the motor starts up it would work perfectly. Again I was really hoping to hear from someone that might have one to see if they have a slow startup. This slow startup will eventually ruin the start switch then the motor. Once it's up to speed it's an amazing mill. It's first model of this kind for woodmizer. I believe it needs improvements. I never buy 1st models. Like companies to work kinks out first. 👍
Quote from: Billmaz on June 20, 2020, 09:17:37 AMIf you owned one of these and it worked you would have a leg to stand on. Otherwise shhhhhhh.
Ummm - it doesn't work that way around here. Multiple, qualified, members, myself included, have tried to help you with this issue but you are set on claiming to know more than the company that built the mill, and already paid for an onsite visit.
An overloaded electric motor will cause an amperage draw spike, not a voltage drop. Said spike will trip out the thermal overload or the breaker itself if it's high or long enough depending on what type of protection the motor has in front of it. A slow spinning motor is a sign of low voltage being fed to it. But hey - what do I know about sawmills or electric motors?
Can you run the mill off of a generator till you get the new gas powered mill ?
I have a 5hp table saw I ran on a generator while I waited to get power run to my house site.
@Billmaz (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=51198) . That's not the way it works around here, god forbid you have an issue or recommend a sawmill outside of the sponsors to the left. Can't pith off the sponsors that allow you to post here, which I was basically told by the admin.
Funny, I thought my ability to post here was actually my doing, you can delete my account and my pictures, that you do not own, no matter what fly by night attorney drew up your agreement.
The members make the community, not the sponsors. You drive a lot of people away with that mentality. Peace out.
Hmmm. Goodbye homesteading.
FOREVER
I have LT15 wide with a 10 hp electric on it works great even if i start the motor with the clutch engaged. I would agree with Southside and say it's a voltage/feed issue. 6 gauge copper should be overkill for that motor.
I wouldn't give up on the electric option, as it's very handy! I love how much quieter it is plus very minimal maintenance!
I agree a 7HP motor should have no problem starting. I'm wondering if there is some electronic tweaking on the motor. Possibly a programmable soft start, or perhaps a 3 phase motor powered by a VFD.
I think electric would be well worth the hassle. I still think its something simple that an industrial electrician could figure out within a few minutes. I'm sure WM will stick with you to solve the problem.
Quote from: Larry on June 20, 2020, 09:26:05 PMI still think its something simple that an industrial electrician could figure out within a few minutes.
I have always felt that there is/was an undiagnosed electrical feed problem that is only problematic under a load.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 20, 2020, 04:15:59 PM
Can you run the mill off of a generator till you get the new gas powered mill ?
I have a 5hp table saw I ran on a generator while I waited to get power run to my house site.
Bruno has a great test here, this would eliminate any electric supply question and be a second test for the mill motor.
D
Quote from: busenitzcww on June 20, 2020, 07:53:06 PM
I have LT15 wide with a 10 hp electric on it works great even if i start the motor with the clutch engaged. I would agree with Southside and say it's a voltage/feed issue. 6 gauge copper should be overkill for that motor.
I wouldn't give up on the electric option, as it's very handy! I love how much quieter it is plus very minimal maintenance!
Is your motor made in Italy like the OP, could be WM switched motors . I have a 5hp Powermatic planer that was slow starting with a china motor, put some little bit bigger capacitors in it, now it starts instantly. Steve
Quote from: dgdrls on June 21, 2020, 01:42:30 PM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on June 20, 2020, 04:15:59 PM
Can you run the mill off of a generator till you get the new gas powered mill ?
I have a 5hp table saw I ran on a generator while I waited to get power run to my house site.
Bruno has a great test here, this would eliminate any electric supply question and be a second test for the mill motor.
D
It's going to take a GOOD sized generator to get a 7 or 10 hp started under heavy load. They might be using 80 to 100 amps to get started. I've watched silo unloader motors start up with a amp gauge which went way up on starts. Steve
I'd be tempted to bring the mill right over next to the power supply and try a very short run of two or four gauge wire, just as a test, to see how it runs. Rule out voltage drop wire problem maybe.
It could be a connection on the service entrance.
Quote from: ladylake on June 21, 2020, 02:44:33 PM
Quote from: busenitzcww on June 20, 2020, 07:53:06 PM
I have LT15 wide with a 10 hp electric on it works great even if i start the motor with the clutch engaged. I would agree with Southside and say it's a voltage/feed issue. 6 gauge copper should be overkill for that motor.
I wouldn't give up on the electric option, as it's very handy! I love how much quieter it is plus very minimal maintenance!
Is your motor made in Italy like the OP, could be WM switched motors . I have a 5hp Powermatic planer that was slow starting with a china motor, put some little bit bigger capacitors in it, now it starts instantly. Steve
I believe it's a marathon motor which I believe is US made.
I agree with Steve, put some capacitors on it.
So I had ordered this exact same mill before I saw this thread. Last Thursday I get the mill and darn if I don't have exactly the same problem as Billmaz. Armed with the information in this thread I started diagnosing.
Input voltage = 247v... CHECK
Breaker rating = 50A... CHECK
During start-up I measured and the results shocked me.
Startup current = 120A !WHOA!
Voltage = 190v ---> HMMM, this didn't surprise me as my mill is on a very long run from the service entrance but given the 120A draw it's not too shocking. More info is needed
Once running full speed (only way I got there was lowering some of the tension on the band)
No load current = 17A
Voltage = 240V
Max current while cutting a 8" silver maple at a fast walking speed = 30A
Now the road to get to the above numbers was much longer** and involved a couple of calls to Woodmizer which I must say they handled with excellence. Their knowledge on this particular mill a bit less so but so far it's working out and they're clearly committed to improving so I won't take anything away from them there.
Now, here's what I'm currently thinking. Everything seems good once it's running full speed and even hitting 30A (30A * 240V = 7.2KW = ~9.6HP) doesn't seem too bad. The saw has plenty of power. So I think the problem is in the start circuit. Now take this with a whole log of salt because everything I know about AC motor start capacitors I learned from this thread and a couple of Google searches then but I think the start capacitor is vastly undersized. There are 2 caps on the motor, one for start and one for run, and both are 80uF. According to this page (https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Motor_Capacitor_Selection.php) a 5hp should have something in the range of 750uF so I feel pretty sure 80uF is just too small. I will call Woodmizer in the morning and see what they say and update the group here.
** The road to get here is probably worthy of a separate post but Woodmizer said they are updating their assembly instructions based on my notes so I'll wait to see how that turns out before I pipe up. The relevant bits here are the mast posts and bandwheels were out of plane which resulted in extra friction and per the current setup instructions you level things out with the blade guides which resulted in even more friction. Once I got everything correctly trued up I saw a 3A drop in no-load current and probably a 1/4 drop in noise so I think this is pretty significant and might be part of what's happening to Billmaz.
Sounds like they might have sent these motors out with the wrong size capacitors. Steve
Something I thought I had mentioned earlier here, but now I see that I had not. I had an issue with a 480v 100hp motor on a new machine (water jet cutting 90,000 psi) install years ago. It would blow the breaker every time we started the pump. Called the mfg for help. Turned out we were supposed to have a special breaker in the panel for this and somebody missed the fine print. We had to order the breaker and it took several weeks. The way these breakers work, they allow the high in-rush current for a short period of time to allow the motor to come up to speed and settle down before it will trip. As I recall, the breaker we got had a little pot on it to adjust the time lag and was rated for 100 amps (maybe 125?) at 480v. I think it was around $500.00.
I am not saying this would solve your problem, but you might want to look into it because it seems once your motor is humming at speed all is good, it's just those initial milliseconds that are the issue. Or am I mis-understanding the issue? Anyway, just a thought. Please consult a real electrician as you move forward, someone with experience in such things. Best of luck to all.
I would also think the start capacitor is too small.
I converted my mill to electric, 7.5hp 3 Phase motor that runs on single phase with the third leg produced with a capacitor.
As a sawmill is a hard start with all the heavy wheels it need to start turning, band tension,.... i needed 1200uf starter capacitors and a 80uf running capacitor.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109583.msg1713027#msg1713027 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109583.msg1713027#msg1713027)
Just to add, if you ones tried electric you won't go back to gas!! it's worth all the money and trouble to make it work
I ran back out to the mill last night and took pics of all the name data. Thought I'd post the info here for posterity.
CIMA Single Phase Asynchronous Motor
Home | Produzione motori elettrici a progetto, asincroni, monofase e trifase | Cima Motori (http://www.cimamotori.com)
Type: 132S/2
Duty: S1
M.Y.: 04-02
Insul.Cl.:F-TROP IP55
CAP.: uF 160
Vc: 450
kW: 5.5
Hp: 7.5
Poles: 2
V: 220
A: 33.0
COS: 0.99
Hz: 60
RPM: 3450
I also noted that both caps are 80uF (Ducati, cool!). When I took off the wiring cover I discovered they are connected in parallel so it's not a start+run configuration, it's actually 160uF start only.
Ducati energia
416.25.A4
80uF +/-5%
400V~10000h / cl. B
450V~ 3000h / cl. C
370Vac 50-60Hz
They appear to be spec'd & installed by the motor manufacturer so that adds a wrinkle, wonder who botched it... I'll see what WM says later today.
Quote from: crmorse on July 09, 2020, 09:28:11 PMthis didn't surprise me as my mill is on a very long run from the service entrance but given the 120A draw it's not too shocking. More info is needed
Your service entrance needs to be addressed before you can make any valid tests or troubleshooting.
Quote from: Magicman on July 10, 2020, 10:47:02 AM
Quote from: crmorse on July 09, 2020, 09:28:11 PMthis didn't surprise me as my mill is on a very long run from the service entrance but given the 120A draw it's not too shocking. More info is needed
Your service entrance needs to be addressed before you can make any valid tests or troubleshooting.
This is a very good question. Is the excess current draw being caused by my voltage drop or is the voltage drop happening because of the high current draw? Which is the cause? I don't know. I'm highly suspicious of the start capacitor size so I'm leaning that way. The fact that I'm seeing very little voltage drop (<8v) even at 33A draw gives me a little more confidence in my source but I'm open to any possibilities.
But my mill is where it is, I can't move it closer to the service entrance so if it turns out that startup is right then I'll have to address the problem via other means.
I did speak to WM today and they are researching my question and will get back to me.
Quote from: busenitzcww on June 20, 2020, 07:53:06 PM
I have LT15 wide with a 10 hp electric on it works great even if i start the motor with the clutch engaged. I would agree with Southside and say it's a voltage/feed issue. 6 gauge copper should be overkill for that motor.
I wouldn't give up on the electric option, as it's very handy! I love how much quieter it is plus very minimal maintenance!
You have a clutch?! That's exactly what this needs! It starts perfectly with belts off. If it had a clutch I could engage it after startup
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on June 21, 2020, 03:26:36 PM
I'd be tempted to bring the mill right over next to the power supply and try a very short run of two or four gauge wire, just as a test, to see how it runs. Rule out voltage drop wire problem maybe.
I did that. Disconnected my house too so mill was only thing on it. Same problem
I hate to repeat myself and sound like some kind of nut, but it seems fairly clear it is the inrush (heavy start up) current that is tripping the breaker and a time delay to allow that over current should be a huge help in solving this issue. I wonder what someone like @Al_Smith (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=2054) would say about this?
After that report about the clutch, it just sounds like the startup torque required by the mill is higher than the startup torque supplied by the electric motor. Not an electrical problem at all. Seems out of character for the company could make a design mistake like that. They are too good for that, but things do happen. Or perhaps this particular mill (and the other one exhibiting this behavior) has some defect that's creating the need for additional torque. Anyway you slice it, it just doesn't sound like something WM would miss. And yet . . . we are here.
Kind of maddening, but at least it seems to be headed for a resolution. I'll be looking forward to hearing the end of the story. "And they lived happily ever after."
Well first of all you have a 2 pole motor,3450 Rpm .Generally speaking they don't roll a heavy load on start up as easily a 4 pole 1725 RPM motor .
One old rule of thumb says about 80 microfarad per kw .So that would be 80 times 5.5 which comes out to 440 and you only have 160 .
I've used larger for hard to start motors a few times and never had a problem .Fact the last rotary converter,a 10 HP I made which course has no load I used a 1500 m/F .That spins it up in a hurry .
All the cap does is cause what appears to be a phase differential which is caused by the lead the cap makes .On single phase that's only about 30 degrees .
Now then rambling on you can run a 3 phase on single phase just like a converter with a start and run cap but it will only produce some where about 60 percent of the power as 3 phase .Figuring wattage on 3 phase it's voltage times amperage times 1.73 ( the square root of 3 ) so with single phase the 1.73 is not there any more .HP is figured at 746 watts per HP at 100 % power factor .
AL, can you say that again in English for the common man? :D I had suggested in an earlier post that a breaker with an in-rush current time delay might be a solution. Do you have an opinion on that?
Btulloh, I am not pointing fingers at anyone, just in case somebody thought that. This is an engineering problem, I think. I sympathize with the mill owners, but I also understand that WM is a solid company with good design skills. This is an issue they are trying to figure out properly I am sure. I have been through many things like this in my career. No finger pointing because it is counter-productive, just open minds trying to think it through. This 'thing' has a solution out there somewhere that will make life better for everyone, I have no doubt.
Quote from: btulloh on July 13, 2020, 07:31:21 PM
After that report about the clutch, it just sounds like the startup torque required by the mill is higher than the startup torque supplied by the electric motor. Not an electrical problem at all. Seems out of character for the company could make a design mistake like that. They are too good for that, but things do happen. Or perhaps this particular mill (and the other one exhibiting this behavior) has some defect that's creating the need for additional torque. Anyway you slice it, it just doesn't sound like something WM would miss. And yet . . . we are here.
Kind of maddening, but at least it seems to be headed for a resolution. I'll be looking forward to hearing the end of the story. "And they lived happily ever after."
YES! Yes thank you @btulloh (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=29962). I've been suggesting that there might be a design flaw. You know it happens to the best of companies. I just can't wait any longer for WM To figure it out. They just keep telling me I don't have enough power and they haven't had problems with any other units. Now I know that isn't true thanks to this forum. I can't get more power. Talked to an engineer from my power company about getting more power. It's not possible. So unfortunately I'm going with gas now. 😞
I believe the mill is a European design .
They run lots of mills on electricity.
I'm wondering if this has something to do with it.
Their power at residential property seems more powerful than ours.
That's from watching U-movie sawmill stuff from Europe.
Just my 2 cents
Even from a dead stop, the torque required to get a couple band wheels, a v belt, an idler, and a fully tensioned band is pretty minimal. Just by turning by hand should give you a good indication of whether it feels "about right" or "pretty stiff" (industry standard terms for characterizing these things). If it's "too stiff" as an assembly, how do the individual parts feel? Adding elements to see when things go from "about right" to "too stiff" (on the standard scale as defined by the Department of Band Mill Weights and Measures in Gaithersburg, MD).
Does this mill have blocks or rollers for guides? Blocks are just disc brakes and can be a problem if set too close - but that's a pretty obvious thing.
Even from a dead stop it should start fine on a 10hp motor. There's just not that much inertia and resistance to overcome if all the components in the path are OK.
It would be possible to measure and chart the torque curve from start-up to full speed, and compare it to the motor torque curve (which is probably published by the manufacturer). But the "just right" and "too stiff" assessment should be good enough.
I'm also curious why someone has a clutch on their mill, but it's not on these. The only reason to have a clutch should be remove power from the blade without cutting the power to the motor and coasting to a stop.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.
btulloh brings up an interesting observation. What about the brakes? Do these mills have a brake of some kind and is it dragging too hard?
Does that electric motor have soft start
Quote from: Walnut Beast on July 14, 2020, 12:51:28 AM
Does that electric motor have soft start
I meant to say magnetic starter
I just guessed at around 30 amps running which should be number 10 copper wire .Since it's a 50 amp breaker that would be number 6 .
Usually the motor would be protected by the over load contacts on the magnetic starter .However recently with the influx of electrical components from the Pacific rim it's hard to determine what it has . I'd say it's safe bet to say names like Square D ,Cutler-Hammer etc. could not be found any where on this thing .
150 amps sounds like a lot of starting amps to me .Some of the electronic type motor starters these days have adjustable over loads and it could be faulty .They just are not as robustly made for the most part these days .Again attempting to trouble shoot almost anything over the internet for the most part is an exercise in futility .
If the feed line is real long that alone could be the problem .The formula to figure out voltage drop is so long I won't even attempt to explain it .Rather than redesign the wheel my advice it to get with WM .If it doesn't work from my perspective it's on them to make it run correctly .They make a quality product but every so often one slips under the radar .It happens .
crmorse, Be careful starting motor with out blade tight and then snugging up. Sounds like a good way to jump or break a blade.
Quote from: Southside on July 13, 2020, 11:05:33 PM
btulloh brings up an interesting observation. What about the brakes? Do these mills have a brake of some kind and is it dragging too hard?
Oh now that someone else has a design problem theory and another mill is doing the same thing you seem a little more open minded @southside 🤣 really not here to argue at all. Just wanted to see if anyone else suffered same illness. Believe me I'm not bashing woodmizer it's just a proven fact everyone has a hiccup once in a while. Doesn't mean their product is bad. When this thing runs it's amazing. I actually am very good at troubleshooting things. It's a gift and a curse. Have a great day. 👍.
Lots of various questions posted. I'll answer as many as I can remember.
My panel circuit breaker isn't tripping. (old worn out fuse on a drop box did blow so I just removed that and wired straight to the panel as I should have done the first time)
The control panel has a WEG 80A thermal compensated breaker & motor contactor. Wired very clean and professional. No shortcuts there
Motor is not soft start but has a very distinct two stages. At first start RPMs sound about half and current is steady at 120A until the centrifugal switch finally throws and RPMs jump up to full speed and current instantly settles to 17A.
When ice cold the first startup takes 15-20 seconds. After using the saw for a few cuts its down to 1-3 seconds.
No brakes. Blade guides are rolling wheels. Tension and drag is just over "about right." by my calibrated flick-o-the-wrist gauge.
I haven't heard back from WM yet but I did go ahead an order some 400uF caps to try out. It won't hurt anything and at $20 it's a cheap test.
Quote from: Billmaz on July 14, 2020, 07:48:08 AMOh now that someone else has a design problem theory and another mill is doing the same thing you seem a little more open minded @southside 🤣 really not here to argue at all
btulloh opened up another possibility which made me ask about brakes, which it appears do not exist on these mills. Your claimed issue has been voltage drop, which would still not be a sign of an over drag issue caused by brakes, seized bearing, or other mechanical malfunction / design issue, I simply asked if they exist and have been eliminated from the list of potential issues.
Zero drag. I can spin wheels with one finger. BUT...if i take vbelt off it starts like a champ! And the more i use it the better it starts. Like motor needs warmed up. It's crazy.
I just reached out to a couple of higher up WM managers that I have worked with in the past and let them know about this thread in case they have not been made aware of the issue and can lend resources to assist with resolving it.
The "two stages " is simply going from the start winding to the run winding by way of a centrifugal start switch which is part of the motor .If the switch becomes struck it will burn out the start winding .If it releases too early the motor will not have much torque and the amperage will really jump up . What that specific RPM might be I'd have to research it .In a pinch you can use a timer in place of a mechanical start switch .This switch is often a problem but the only way to actually tell is to disassemble the motor to take a look see .Then if it is defective then to find a replacement .There most be a zillion manufacturers of these things in the Pacific rim area .Believe me I've seen them come from all over the entire world except Antarctica .--more>
One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.
Quote from: Billmaz on July 14, 2020, 09:20:11 AM
One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . That sounds like important info.
Then it's motor design to factor in .Unless this motor is totally sealed it is on a band saw mill,sawdust .Sawdust can jamb anything up tight as a bulls butt in fly time .It could be a sealed motor bearing the seal let go and blowed grease on the motor shaft jambing up the start switch .
Well...good theory but 2 motors? What's the chance of that? Then again ya never know.
Quote from: Billmaz on July 14, 2020, 09:20:11 AM
One of the biggest issues is this motor is new to WM so no schematics are available. It's made in Italy. The tech that came to put new motor on said he's never seen one before.
The Italians are not noted for good electrical components ,cheap not good .They have some weird voltages like 208 /365 Wye .
Although it's none of business if WM is having a problem it might behoove them to replace said motor with a name proven brand like Baldor or something .More costly certainly but so is replacement under warrantee work not to mention customer dissatisfaction .It's very important to keep a good reputation .
That was my point in an earlier post.
EU design motor
I would bet all my grits and $300 That's the issue
No weird voltages on the nameplate or crappy parts to be found. I really think the motor mfg just botched the startup cap sizing calcs.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3514.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594735654)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3502.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594735655)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3516.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594735648)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3517.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594735658)
My money is on the caps being inadequate. Can't wait to see what happens when the new caps arrive.
Quote from: teakwood on July 10, 2020, 09:03:12 AM
I would also think the start capacitor is too small.
I converted my mill to electric, 7.5hp 3 Phase motor that runs on single phase with the third leg produced with a capacitor.
As a sawmill is a hard start with all the heavy wheels it need to start turning, band tension,.... i needed 1200uf starter capacitors and a 80uf running capacitor.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109583.msg1713027#msg1713027 (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=109583.msg1713027#msg1713027)
Just to add, if you ones tried electric you won't go back to gas!! it's worth all the money and trouble to make it work
Your probably right
I'm sticking with my gut on this one. It's under powered. Or it needs a clutch to engage blade after motor is at full speed. I hope you get yours running @crmorse (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49115).
So what's the next move. Are they going to send some new caps
No mention of power frequency. EU power is 50 cps vs 60 cps in USA. Seems to me optimum start cap size would be a bit different. Another possible....EU power is 220 volt with NO neutral. US power is two 110 volt legs 180 degrees apart with a grounded neutral.. Wouldn't take but one small wrong mis-connection and you would be running your motor on 110.. EU 220 volt service and US 220 are 2 different beasts.
Billmaz and Crmorse I'm sorry that your having these setbacks with your mill but all the same thank you for your continued patience ,this thread is very educational and no doubt will prove invaluable to some who are either thinking about converting to electric or even new builds. Thank you as well to those with the experience and knowledge who have contributed possible remedies to the problem as their suggestions will help troubleshoot future problems for others. That's what makes this forum such a great place.
To clarify something .Most if not all US single phase is 240 volt from a center tapped transformer for a neutral which is grounded .The motors will run from two phases of 120 208 Wye three phase though .What you have to watch is 120-240 "high leg " delta 3 phase .One transformer is center tapped for 120 on each side but if you tie in that other phase you have about 208 volts which will make the smoke run out of 120 volt stuff .Poof never to run again . :o
Sadly, mostly bad news to report here. I got in the new capacitors. My hopes faded as soon as I saw them.... MUCH smaller than the supplied Ducati ones. They weren't well matched either. One measured at 230uF and the other 255uF. I think this is a factor later.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3529.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1594859346)
I wired everything up, flipped back on the breaker and hoped for the best. As you can see in this video it started with much more gusto than normal (still pulling 120A) but then quickly slowed and then stalled. A quick check of the caps revealed that the lower capacitance one had a smoking hole where some of it's windings used to be..... obviously not rated for this kind of duty.
Woodmizer LX55 E7 w/custom start caps - YouTube (https://youtu.be/RblvLvNyuHw)
I tried to put my ammeter on the wires to the caps (strangely, they are only 14awg) but they were too short for the stubby clamp to fit.
So I put everything back to factory and recorded another startup video. You can see here how it's a full 12 seconds before it finally changes over to run mode and instantly speeds up and drops the amps. I really believe this is a start circuit problem and not a motor power issue.
Woodmizer LX55 E7 very slow startup - YouTube (https://youtu.be/5XcE8yYU2X8)
It's been a week since I called WM but no return call yet. I will dial them up tomorrow and see if they've made any progress on their end. Pretty frustrated right now that I have this mill and can't really use it. I just don't feel comfortable pulling that much current on a regular basis.
*Note: all videos were recorded with the band set to factory spec tension.
Probably most if not all of the Wood-Mizer techs are till working from home so there is no possibility of having a "think tank" situation which would be their normal.
For a 7.5 HP motor that is a tiny little frame size .
Hopefully you can get answers and get it fixed soon
I really think WM should send you a Baldor or Lesson motor to replace this cheap one. Steve
I feel your pain @crmorse (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=49115) And if you keep using it the starter WILL burn up. I had one tech tell me it's under warranty if it does. Not what you like to hear. 🤦♂️ I have to give you some advice. Get it in writing like I did that they will honor the 30 day money back guarantee after 30 days if you can't get it running. I unfortunately am still waiting for my gas replacement but I was too worried this problem wasn't going to be solved and I need to make some money NOW! With this mill.
Wish you guys were closer. I have a cap bank that came with a rotary phase convertor on my 36 wide belt. Would not take much to try on there. Also some motors on the shelf, a 10hp single but the 3450 rpm is a problem. My 24" planer with a 7.5 3ph starts slow but not that bad, thinking a cap bank for it also. I agree they should send out a better motor to try.
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 15, 2020, 09:55:13 PM
For a 7.5 HP motor that is a tiny little frame size .
Yea, that looks like no 7.5 hp motor I have ever seen.
I think that's just weird perspective being caused by cellphone camera. The motor is normal sized, it's just about 3' further from the camera than the ammeter is.
I guess after approx 50 years of industrial electrical work I'm used to the larger frame motors .I've got a 5 HP single phase on one of my drill presses that's most likely twice that size .However I've seen a lot of lower cost cost motors from the Pacific rim that are from my perspective not nearly as large .Generally speaking they are not as robust either .
They use different methods of rating HP .I had what was listed as 5 HP I used on a little log splitter but figuring the amp draw it was only 2.8 HP .Actually though it worked very well all things considered .Certainly beat swinging an axe .
Just got off the phone with WM electrical engineer. Sent him the video and picture of my trial cap and we agreed that he's going to take it up the chain and get me a bigger cap to try out. Good conversation and great support. I'll update again when I know more.
Good to hear. Sounds like your going to be on the WM troubleshooting team 😂
I still think WM should sent out some quality motors and get you sawing, then they can figure it out in their shop. It would be the right thing to do for a place that has good service. Steve
Quote from: ladylake on July 16, 2020, 06:41:57 AM
I really think WM should send you a Baldor or Lesson motor to replace this cheap one. Steve
US motor is good to
Quote from: ladylake on July 17, 2020, 03:37:55 AM
I still think WM should sent out some quality motors and get you sawing, then they can figure it out in their shop. It would be the right thing to do for a place that has good service. Steve
I wish you were CEO for WM! 👊
There's less and less integrity in big company's now days but integrity cost money some time but lack of it will come back to bite them in future sales. Steve
So Steve, did you obtain some sort of vested interest in a different company of late or just throwing rocks at them?
I think a company should do what's right no matter which company. Not let these customers sit there with mills that don't work thanks to switching to a cheaper motor. There are way to many company's now days where the $ is way above integrity living off their name that took years to build up. Steve
And how did you develop this knowledge of what actually transpires between a customer and the business. Yea, right, jump on one side knowing jack about the total association of two other parties. You look like what you are, thats why I'm getting complaints from other members.
Find another topic..
On a lighter note did either of you 2 gets yours mills running?
What amazing timing... I literally just came in from cutting a 12"x5' white oak. It was standing dead for about a year and I felled it back in January so it wasn't really wet or dry.
It cut fine at first but did start bogging down when I got to full width. I was about to curse and throw in the towel until I had to stop a trim it a little because the crotch fork was blocking the outside blade guide. When that crotch put a serious hurt on my Stihl 291 just trying to shave a few inches I realized that knot was a lot harder than I gave it credit for. That said, other than a flatness issue I'm going to ask about in another thread it cut as well as I could ask for.
Starting is still an unresolved problem. I got a shipment notice from WM but I don't know what is in it. I did order a new better capacitor on my own to keep progress moving.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/E1546A66-B393-4451-8150-6C799DC8CABB.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1595380428)
Glad your having fun 👍
Good to here you are using it.
Quote from: tacks Y on July 21, 2020, 09:00:04 PM
On a lighter note did either of you 2 gets yours mills running?
I did not!
Quote from: Billmaz on July 22, 2020, 05:43:30 PM
Quote from: tacks Y on July 21, 2020, 09:00:04 PM
On a lighter note did either of you 2 gets yours mills running?
I did not!
Are you waiting on the gas model? Hope it works out for you in the end.
Yeah still waiting on gas model. 😞
Smoked another one...
I still haven't heard back from WM even though I sent a follow up email. Since I really need to get sawing I ordered another capacitor. This one was single 400mF, much higher tolerance and beefier than the last attempt which was a pair of poorly matched.
This time the mill started right up, less than a second. No lights dimming or massive current draw. Unfortunately, the little capacitor that could, couldn't, and let out all it's magical blue smoke within the next couple of seconds.
I don't know what kind of current that motor is putting through the cap but it's unreal.
Yesterday I also installed the adjustable blade guide option and I have to say, I'm very disappointed in the design of that as well. I just don't see it holding true with much usage. There's nothing holding it in alignment except 4 plastic guide blocks that I just can't see holding against the band pressure with a foot of leverage against them. There's virtually no provisions for alignment on the blocks so once they wear you're stuck with the leading edge band height varying depending on how in you have the guide pushed.
Are you putting the cap on run or start winding?
The same place they had it wired. I realized afterwards that I should have measured each winding while I had it open but it's raining now. Have to wait for tomorrow
I don't know anything about what's going on, but I just bought a 7-1/2 hp single phase Baldor motor, for an air compressor. It weighs 134 pounds, and the cover that the caps are under is a little over half the size of a regular shoe box.
The shaft is 1-3/8" diameter.
It has two lifting rings, and I intend to use an engine lift to place it on the compressor.
I am curious as to what the voltage is marked on the replacement caps
Quote from: crmorse on July 23, 2020, 08:47:40 PM
Smoked another one...
I still haven't heard back from WM even though I sent a follow up email. Since I really need to get sawing I ordered another capacitor. This one was single 400mF, much higher tolerance and beefier than the last attempt which was a pair of poorly matched.
This time the mill started right up, less than a second. No lights dimming or massive current draw. Unfortunately, the little capacitor that could, couldn't, and let out all it's magical blue smoke within the next couple of seconds.
I don't know what kind of current that motor is putting through the cap but it's unreal.
Yesterday I also installed the adjustable blade guide option and I have to say, I'm very disappointed in the design of that as well. I just don't see it holding true with much usage. There's nothing holding it in alignment except 4 plastic guide blocks that I just can't see holding against the band pressure with a foot of leverage against them. There's virtually no provisions for alignment on the blocks so once they wear you're stuck with the leading edge band height varying depending on how in you have the guide pushed.
Did you notice the amp draw when starting? So did it drop off when it came up to speed? (Start winding dropping out)
Quote from: Tom King on July 23, 2020, 09:59:24 PM
I don't know anything about what's going on, but I just bought a 7-1/2 hp single phase Baldor motor, for an air compressor. It weighs 134 pounds, and the cover that the caps are under is a little over half the size of a regular shoe box.
The shaft is 1-3/8" diameter.
It has two lifting rings, and I intend to use an engine lift to place it on the compressor.
What is the rpm on this? Sounds like 1750 not the faster motor.
Yes, slower rpm.
Quote from: tacks Y on July 24, 2020, 07:14:27 AM
Did you notice the amp draw when starting? So did it drop off when it came up to speed? (Start winding dropping out)
I didn't. It started so fast my meter wouldn't have even registered it anyway. And then once the smoke started venting I was more interested in getting it turned off :-)
Quote from: muggs on July 23, 2020, 11:33:02 PM
I am curious as to what the voltage is marked on the replacement caps
250v. I ordered this one:
Robot Check (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P37JP28/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but peak to peak on 240 volts is 339 volts ..I'm afraid it's just going to smoke again .
RMS voltage times 1.414 is peak to peak .You need either a 370 or 440 WDC --working voltage direct current ----
Quote from: Al_Smith on July 24, 2020, 12:48:45 PM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news but peak to peak on 240 volts is 339 volts ..I'm afraid it's just going to smoke again .
RMS voltage times 1.414 is peak to peak .You need either a 370 or 440 WDC --working voltage direct current ----
That actually makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered that.... it also matches the specs of the factory provided cap.
Does this look appropriate?
Amazon.com: CAPACITOR US 450VAC 400uF Appliance Motor Start Run CD60: Home & Kitchen (https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0732WGHPZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
I can't say I've ever seen one rated on AC .On that though my shop has 248 volts coming in .I might note on my phase converter which is 480 volt I had to series 2 caps to get both the capacitance plus withstand approx. 678 volts peak to peak .Those were industrial electrolytic 1500 mF at 440 vdc .They were industrial throwaways,I didn't have a dime in them .Probably too large for 5 HP but the starters are only in the circuit a fraction of a second .
I'll put it like this not only will in wind up the 5 HP converter but also 6.5 HP of other motors on three machines at the same .
My money is still on the start cap. Your brief test showed promise. Already been said, 250v way too low. 400v is pretty typical. In addition to p-to-p voltage there's also a back-emf component to the voltage across the cap.
I guess you don't have a motor shop convenient to you? They are usually quite good with these questions and have the caps on hand.
Good luck. I'm following this with great anticipation.
Great news! Woodmizer was able to reproduce my problem in their lab and came up with a set of capacitors that resolves the problem. Then they worked with the motor manufacturer to supply the correct caps and overnighted them to me. I installed them last night and startup is now almost instant and I don't see the long spike of 120A any more. In fact, startup is so fast that my ammeter doesn't even register the spike.
At this point, I couldn't be more thrilled with their ownership of the issue and their responses. If this had been some far-east mill it would have taken months for engineering to resolve--if anybody could even locate them.
P.S. I did try that 400mF 450V cap I ordered online before the WM ones arrived and it literally exploded on me so don't do that. Stick to the source!
Great !! I'm know it was a long month and a half but I'm glad your up and running. Also I'm glad they stepped up and resolved the problem even if some think it took to long. That says a lot.
smiley_clapping
Excellent. Glad to hear it's solved.
I am confused. Why wouldn't the motor maker not know what caps to use. :-\
The motor started fine in commercial/industrial settings where high current power was available a short run from the transformer. In my case I'm 1000' away from the transformer and I believe Billmaz was also a good distance away but I'm not sure.
The voltage drop caused by the difference seems to be the key factor. The new capacitor setup compensates (or maybe just avoids) this problem.
crmorse
What are the specs on the new capacitors?
Ron
smiley_clapping
Quote from: crmorse on July 30, 2020, 10:21:15 AM
Great news! Woodmizer was able to reproduce my problem in their lab and came up with a set of capacitors that resolves the problem. Then they worked with the motor manufacturer to supply the correct caps and overnighted them to me. I installed them last night and startup is now almost instant and I don't see the long spike of 120A any more. In fact, startup is so fast that my ammeter doesn't even register the spike.
At this point, I couldn't be more thrilled with their ownership of the issue and their responses. If this had been some far-east mill it would have taken months for engineering to resolve--if anybody could even locate them.
P.S. I did try that 400mF 450V cap I ordered online before the WM ones arrived and it literally exploded on me so don't do that. Stick to the source!
Great job!! Who do I need to talk to at Woodmizer to get mine up and running!! This is why I started this thread cause I couldn't get answers from Woodmizer. I was just told I don't have enough power. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Quote from: Billmaz on July 30, 2020, 04:58:56 PMGreat job!! Who do I need to talk to at Woodmizer to get mine up and running!! This is why I started this thread cause I couldn't get answers from Woodmizer. I was just told I don't have enough power. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
I sent you contact details in PM.
Quote from: ronwood on July 30, 2020, 02:59:14 PM
What are the specs on the new capacitors?
I forgot to take pictures of them but IIRC, they are each 83uF and are a special start/run cap that has an internal switching mechanism. They had me wire them in parallel with the existing ones so that brings the total to 326mF during startup.
1 up and running and 1 to go. Glad to here it.
Quote from: tacks Y on July 30, 2020, 09:20:25 PM
1 up and running and 1 to go. Glad to here it.
Yup. Hope It works for me. Just waiting on caps being sent. They only had 2.
@Billmaz (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=51198)
how is the mill doing? I'm very interested in this electric model.
I just need a bit of help to figure how to hook up my 220 cord to the switch in the lx55e 7 hp. No diagrams that I can see. You all are out past the moon with knowledge. I just need a diagram for dummies.
Usually the plate for the wire connection at the rear of the motor will have a wiring schematic on the inside.
This is what mine looks like. The incoming power connects at the very top (left if the picture doesn't show as portrait) to the lugs marked "L1" and "L2".
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/59115/IMG_3502~0.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1610595076)