Anyone else get stiffed on orders?

[redprospector]

It's only happened a few times in the last couple of months, but that doesn't seem to make me feel any better about it. I had a guy order 10 6x6x10' Ponderosa Pine posts, he was supposed to pick them up Tuesday. I finally got ahold of him on the phone today, and found out that I have 10 6x6x10' posts for sale.  :( The last one was much worse though, it was $3000.00 of 2x8x8' Ponderosa Pine.  :'(
Do any of you get this kinda stuff? What do you do to stop/deal with it?
Do people not hold any stock in their own word any more?  ???

[Deese]

Happened once to me, but thankfully it was a super duper small order. Just enough to build a few picnic tables. I left it stacked outside for 2 weeks and eventually gave it to another guy who was picking up some lumber.

[4x4American]

It's happened to me, too, but not yet on a large order (kow).  People that I don't really know I try to get a deposit of half down first.  Once someone puts $ into something, they're more apt to come and get it.  I have 1mbf of hardwood 8x8s and 6x8's that have been in my way.  The guy kept making his order bigger, no problem, but, I need half down before I go any further.  So he came and cut me a check, and dropped off his trailer with a log on it to saw and life is good.  Where you can, try to get $ down first.  Some people just seem like they're serious and I have been lucky.  It'll happen though, just a matter of when.

[Ricker]

Has happened a couple times.  I have found that when those customers come back for wanting something else a couple months later and I tell them sure I will saw that for them but a deposit of what the total bill is will be required they get the hint that I ain't happy with them.

[redprospector]

I figured a deposit would help. Just wasn't sure how many did it that way. Didn't used to be that way so much.
If any of these folks come back wanting something, I think it'll be a 100% deposit plus what their previous order was.

[Dave Shepard]

1/3 or even 1/2 down if the customer is in question, and 100% payment before anything leaves the yard. If it's not a stock item, assuming you do stock lumber, then non-refundable. You can be as flexible as you want, or need, to be. Anytime you lose out, that comes out of your profit.

[redprospector]

1/3 or even 1/2 down if the customer is in question, and 100% payment before anything leaves the yard. If it's not a stock item, assuming you do stock lumber, then non-refundable. You can be as flexible as you want, or need, to be. Anytime you lose out, that comes out of your profit.

I like the 1/3 down idea.
Not only does it come out of my profit, it takes away from my stock of logs, and could keep me from having the particular species, or length of logs to fill a paying customers order, causing me to have to buy a load of logs I wouldn't have needed, or loose an order.
I'm not stocking anything right now. I'm just trying to get this new venture on its feet and going. This kind of stuff doesn't help much.
On the bright side, I had a customer come by yesterday and pay for an order that he's not supposed to pick up until next week. He said he didn't want me to get worried and sell it to someone else.  ??? I guess it happens on both ends of the stick.

[DGK]

All customers that I have not done business with in the past, have to pay a 50% non-refundable deposit on custom orders. In my experience, I have found that it is the person that orders just a few pieces of something custom, and needs it immediately, has the higher probability of not picking it up. :-)

[ozarkgem]

Setting on a pile of cedar that some people ordered last Oct. If it was not something I could use or resell I would have taken a deposit. They have bought twice from me in the past.

[Peter Drouin]

I only have 2 customers that can take anything here and pay later.
All others pay when they take it. ;D
Never been stiffed.
I have a lot of lumber on hand. Most times I have it. But one customer wants 210 1x8x16. I have 120 so I will cut the rest with no money up front. Then cut more for the next customer.
If he doesn't come then I have a bunch of 1x8x16.
Some customers want to pay ahead, before they take the wood. I don't do that. Pay when you take the wood. Easy for me less confusing,  :D

The only thing that I get is a guy will want say 100 - 1x12x8 I cut them and dead stack them. Don't want to take out the ones I have in the shed. ;D
So when I get the pile done, He calls and needs 10' and not 8'. I don't care, He just spent more money. I look at the dead stack and knowing I have to handle all the wood again.
So now It all gets stuck.  :D :D :D ;D

[WV Sawmiller]

   Been pretty lucky so far. Only time I truly got stiffed was my fault as I offered to sell a young man some lumber on credit for use building primitive furniture. Not a big order and I figured it was like grub staking an old fashioned gold miner. The guy seemed to be doing okay with his venture then he got sick and had surgery and I never heard more from him. He did not ask for credit - I offered it to help set him up.

   My policy on special orders is generally to get a deposit in cash or they can leave a trailer here as collateral. Previous comments about the customer having some skin in the game is correct. The customer is much more reluctant to cancel when it is going to cost him money too.

[Sixacresand]

I been conditioned to sticker and cover lumber as I mill it unless unless the customer's  pickup is backed up to the end of the mill. Some customers wait days or weeks or never to come get it. 

[redprospector]

Ok, that's it. 50% up front it is.
I'm going to re-produce a sign that my Dad made in the 60's, with one line added. It will say...
IN GOD WE TRUST!
ALL OTHERS PAY CASH!
SOME WILL PAY 1/2 UP FRONT!
;)

[bedway]

I had a woman ask me to turn 4 oak legs for a table top she had. They were quite elaborate and included the complete lower assembly to accept the top. Stain and finish were applied per her direction. End result, the units been setting in my loft for ten years. That's the only time ive been stiffed in 15 years doing this work. I don't have a lot of respect for people like that.

[redprospector]

The only thing that I get is a guy will want say 100 - 1x12x8 I cut them and dead stack them. Don't want to take out the ones I have in the shed. ;D
So when I get the pile done, He calls and needs 10' and not 8'. I don't care, He just spent more money. I look at the dead stack and knowing I have to handle all the wood again.
So now It all gets stuck.  :D :D :D ;D

I been conditioned to sticker and cover lumber as I mill it unless unless the customer's  pickup is backed up to the end of the mill. Some customers wait days or weeks or never to come get it. 

I'm learning this one real quick. Where I'm at it's warm enough Year around to grow mildew/mold in a dead stack. Had to sticker about 4000 bd. ft. Of 2x8's that was supposed to be picked up dead stacked, and I've got a bunch of 1" stuff that needs to be edged that I need to peel apart and sticker. But that one's my fault. I may have to bleach it.  :-\
How do you charge for stickers, and labor when it was ordered dead stacked? Or do you?

[WV Sawmiller]

How do you charge for stickers, and labor when it was ordered dead stacked? Or do you?

   Either let the customer dead stack it as he picks it up or tell him he can keep the stickers for $__ each. My price list includes stickers for sale if people want them. You might charge him a deposit for them and return his deposit if/when he brings back the stickers.

[azmtnman]

found out that I have 10 6x6x10' posts for sale. 

Just out of curiosity, what do you charge for pondo 6x6's?
  Big box stores want $5.20 a linear ft for untreated 6x6's. I've priced mine at $4.00 but haven't tried to advertise any yet.
  I'm trying to get my outfit running to do what it does (not-for-profit) and need some income from it to cover costs.

[JRWoodchuck]

You wouldn't be able to order anything off the internet or go to any store with out leaving 100% of the money with them. So I think 50% up front is more than fair. I wouldn't expect to walk up to a business and not give them something securing my interest in their product. Anyone that is serious about what they are asking about will not have any issue with that.

[Bruno of NH]

I have not been stiffed yet But i have a yard full of a customers lumber that should have been picked up this summer.
Its a pain to plow around it and i'm sick of moving it >:(
Won't happen again i know that

[redprospector]

   Either let the customer dead stack it as he picks it up or tell him he can keep the stickers for $__ each. My price list includes stickers for sale if people want them. You might charge him a deposit for them and return his deposit if/when he brings back the stickers.

So, a 1x1x4' sticker is .3333 bd. ft., and lets say 1" lumber is a buck a bd. ft. That's $0.33 each. Would you charge the customer $0.33 per sticker, or would you have an up charge for being a pain in the butt?

  Just out of curiosity, what do you charge for pondo 6x6's?
  Big box stores want $5.20 a linear ft for untreated 6x6's. I've priced mine at $4.00 but haven't tried to advertise any yet.
  I'm trying to get my outfit running to do what it does (not-for-profit) and need some income from it to cover costs.

I'm getting .80 a bd. ft. for pine under 8".

You wouldn't be able to order anything off the internet or go to any store with out leaving 100% of the money with them. So I think 50% up front is more than fair. I wouldn't expect to walk up to a business and not give them something securing my interest in their product. Anyone that is serious about what they are asking about will not have any issue with that.

I guess I was trying to be too trusting. I can go into most of our local places and order without deposit, but I've dealt with most of them for years. The ones that want a deposit, or paid up front doesn't bother me, so it only makes sense.

I have not been stiffed yet But i have a yard full of a customers lumber that should have been picked up this summer.
Its a pain to plow around it and i'm sick of moving it >:(
Won't happen again i know that

Yep, that's what I'm doing today...moving stuff around that hasn't been picked up. I'm with you, won't happen again.

[WV Sawmiller]

Red,

   As to the question of sticker prices I sell mine for $.25 each and sell my poplar lumber for $.75/bf so that seems in line with what you suggested. I am phasing out my 4' stickers and in the future all will be 3' because stacks that wide are easier for me to handle (plus I have access to good 3' square pallets I use for stacking). Of course most of mine, and those of many others here on the FF, are a by-product of edging and while the lumber is salvaged it still takes time and handling to make them. Depending upon how bad you wanted them back you could jack the price up or keep it low.

   I would tell my customers when they place the order to provide a truck or trailer for dead-stacking or that it will be stickered and they will be responsible for buying them or returning them to get their deposit back.

   Getting the deposit is fair and reasonable. Even if I have the deposit I'd suggest, unless the customer is there when sawed, stickering the lumber to prevent mildew and a dissatisfied customer.

[redprospector]

Ok, so nothing leaves the yard before it's paid for. Everything coming off the saw gets stickered, customer unstacks and leaves my stickers, or pays a deposit for them. At least a 50% deposit on all custom orders.
The only question unanswered is "don't people hold any stock in their word anymore?". I guess that one is self evident, or we wouldn't have to get a deposit before we cut. 

[WV Sawmiller]

The only question unanswered is "don't people hold any stock in their word anymore?". I guess that one is self evident, or we wouldn't have to get a deposit before we cut. 

Red,

   Some do, some don't. I don't know about your customers. Most of mine are pretty rural and I think they tend to be more attuned to keeping their word than more urban customers. Not meaning to put down city folks but I think living in a rural environment forces a closer and more personal relationship. No doubt there are big exceptions to this generality so don't hold me to close to this opinion. Also what is the average age of your customers or more precisely of the ones who stiffed you? I suspect age is a factor too. (Another unproven opinion.)

[longtime lurker]

For me this is a mostly a non issue... maybe I'm lucky but I think its more about how we operate...

There's no such thing as a custom size for me, except the real long stuff which is only cut to order. But "regular" size and length dimension lumber we just cut it, and if this guy dont take it someone else will. If a size is a bit odd... say 2¾x7¼... I cut the next regular size up being 3x8, charge them for that, then charge them to resize it back to spec.

What I wont do is cut weird sizes to order. Because if I get stuck with it I'd have to size it down to the next regular size, and any shorts/ out of grade etc is also in a weird size. That means work, and work I dont get paid for at that.

All of my regular builder/cabinetshop/merchant customers all have accounts with us. I've had to wait to get paid often, but thats because my customer has had to wait to get paid by his customer kinda thing. It hurts. Account customers are my cash flow nightmare even when I get paid on time - buying logs today to get paid in three or more months is the bane of my existance.
Walk ins we work the same principal as everybody else... pay before you leave the store.

I'll ask for a deposit if its a big job or a lot of sizes that might not shift in a hurry if the sale fell through. I dislike having to do so but I can only carry so much and things are lean here right now.

This week we quoted a largish dunnage job with a tight deadline through one of our timber yard customers. Mid Feb. delivery, he pays on the 30th day without fail, I got logs and a sawmill...no worries.
A framing order thats a payment on delivery order. Guys bought a few boards from us before, now hes enlarging the house by a lot. Standard sizes mostly, couple of big long beams in it but they'll shift if it falls through or I can cut them back to 2 regular lengths... no worries.
And 30,000 tomato stakes, 1"x 1"x 5'...and that one I want a deposit for because its going to suck up a whole heap of sawlogs meeting their schedule and while we can shift some stakes thats a pile i dont want to get caught with. Guess I could turn it all into stickers, can always use more stickers.

Usually when I get shafted I get really shafted.  I have become very sensitive to my gut when it tells me the cheque needs to clear before we unload the delivery truck.

[redprospector]

Red,

   Some do, some don't. I don't know about your customers. Most of mine are pretty rural and I think they tend to be more attuned to keeping their word than more urban customers. Not meaning to put down city folks but I think living in a rural environment forces a closer and more personal relationship. No doubt there are big exceptions to this generality so don't hold me to close to this opinion. Also what is the average age of your customers or more precisely of the ones who stiffed you? I suspect age is a factor too. (Another unproven opinion.)

I consider us to be pretty rural. I mean heck, there's only a little over 2 million people in the whole state.  :D If you're not in Albuquerque, or Las Cruces you can't be too far from rural.  ;)
The ages of the ones who stiffed me I would guess to be, one in his early 30's, the other in his mid 40's. I also had a guy in his mid 60's try to talk me down when picking up his order of quarter sawn Douglas Fir "slabs". He actually got a little ugly about it.  :-\

For me this is a mostly a non issue... maybe I'm lucky but I think its more about how we operate...

There's no such thing as a custom size for me, except the real long stuff which is only cut to order. But "regular" size and length dimension lumber we just cut it, and if this guy dont take it someone else will. If a size is a bit odd... say 2¾x7¼... I cut the next regular size up being 3x8, charge them for that, then charge them to resize it back to spec.

What I wont do is cut weird sizes to order. Because if I get stuck with it I'd have to size it down to the next regular size, and any shorts/ out of grade etc is also in a weird size. That means work, and work I dont get paid for at that.

All of my regular builder/cabinetshop/merchant customers all have accounts with us. I've had to wait to get paid often, but thats because my customer has had to wait to get paid by his customer kinda thing. It hurts. Account customers are my cash flow nightmare even when I get paid on time - buying logs today to get paid in three or more months is the bane of my existance.
Walk ins we work the same principal as everybody else... pay before you leave the store.

I'll ask for a deposit if its a big job or a lot of sizes that might not shift in a hurry if the sale fell through. I dislike having to do so but I can only carry so much and things are lean here right now.

This week we quoted a largish dunnage job with a tight deadline through one of our timber yard customers. Mid Feb. delivery, he pays on the 30th day without fail, I got logs and a sawmill...no worries.
A framing order thats a payment on delivery order. Guys bought a few boards from us before, now hes enlarging the house by a lot. Standard sizes mostly, couple of big long beams in it but they'll shift if it falls through or I can cut them back to 2 regular lengths... no worries.
And 30,000 tomato stakes, 1"x 1"x 5'...and that one I want a deposit for because its going to suck up a whole heap of sawlogs meeting their schedule and while we can shift some stakes thats a pile i dont want to get caught with. Guess I could turn it all into stickers, can always use more stickers.

Usually when I get shafted I get really shafted.  I have become very sensitive to my gut when it tells me the cheque needs to clear before we unload the delivery truck.

I couldn't wait 3 months or more for my money. But that's just me. I figure if they need to finance their business, they need a banker, not a sawmiller.
My big problem is that most everything we get is softwoods. I can do ok on beams and 1x's, but framing lumber I can't compete with the big box stores, so it may be quite a while before someone needs that many full size 2x8's.
I guess our gut feelings is the best tool in the box to work with this stuff.

[azmtnman]

The only question unanswered is "don't people hold any stock in their word anymore?". I guess that one is self evident, or we wouldn't have to get a deposit before we cut. 

Red,

   Some do, some don't. I don't know about your customers. Most of mine are pretty rural and I think they tend to be more attuned to keeping their word than more urban customers. Not meaning to put down city folks but I think living in a rural environment forces a closer and more personal relationship. No doubt there are big exceptions to this generality so don't hold me to close to this opinion. Also what is the average age of your customers or more precisely of the ones who stiffed you? I suspect age is a factor too. (Another unproven opinion.)

I think a lot of it is the tight budget people live on (or lack of a budget at all.) They order something from you then something comes up and they don't have the money for your order. The ones who put stock in their word are too embarrassed to admit they can't pay.
 

[Brucer]

I've sold customer orders to roughly 500 people and only twice has someone not picked up their order.

In one case it was a young engineer who was adding a small deck and stairs to his house. I left a message saying his order was ready and heard nothing. I called again 3 weeks later and he was a little embarrassed. It seems he had been trying to sell the house for 8 months with no luck. The realtor told him the deck and stairs would make his house much more attractive and it would probably sell in a couple of weeks after he added them. Well, it actually sold a couple of weeks after he had ordered the wood :. He offered to buy the wood even though he didn't need it, but it was all popular sizes to I let him off the hook.

The second case was a couple I'd dealt with once before. The first time they had a  special order of unusual sizes, loved the product, and were prompt to get the wood and pay. They came back 2 months later and wanted more of the same thing. After waiting a month after leaving a message, I called them again. The woman was very brusque and said her husband was dealing with it. I finally got hold of him and he said it was his wife's project. I finally discovered that they'd split up and weren't interested in the project. I kept that material in the yard for about 4 years and then sold it at a nice mark up because it was air-dried down to 10%.

In spite of those two incidents, I still only ask for money up front on large orders. Over 3000 BF I'll ask for 1/4 to 1/3 up front, followed by progress payments as I work on the order. I always explain that I need some of the money up front to pay for the logs I'll have to order.

I never look at it as "two people failed to complete the sale"; instead I see it as 99.6% of the people I've dealt with have picked up and paid for their orders .

[WV Sawmiller]

Brucer,

   I would not consider the first guy stiffing you since he offered to pay for the order even though he could no longer use it. Glad you could help him out.

   Got mixed feelings about the divorce case. A deposit would have helped cover the extra carrying charge for holding it even though you later sold at a better price.

   I did have one customer who had to delay part of his payment after I sawed his logs at his place. Paid about 40% and told me check would be there for rest in 2 weeks and it was. I'd have been okay with that but really wish he had discussed ahead of time.

   I sawed a large order for a guy 45 miles away. Worked at his place 3 weeks because of weather delays and such and was nervous about that one as all mine are handshake deals but he was Johnny on the Spot the night (I finished last log by headlights on my truck) I finished. Moved the mill a couple miles and sawed one more day for his friend.

[drobertson]

Got stuck once with 8' 1 X12' s pine bout all clear as well, no harm on this one it went to several other outlets myself included. The other time was most recent!y, but he ended up settling up, it too was dead stacked custom sized, this said getting a deposit before sawing, especially on unique sized lumber is just a good idea. Knowing who you( we) are dealing with goes a long way to trusting folks,

[alabama]

It is very difficult to live in the past of a handshake and gentlemen's agreement is solid as oak! Cash is king now. I would also recommend a deposit of 50%. Money talks and you know what walks! I'm not in the business like you are but this is in general for everything. Your not alone...

It's only happened a few times in the last couple of months, but that doesn't seem to make me feel any better about it. I had a guy order 10 6x6x10' Ponderosa Pine posts, he was supposed to pick them up Tuesday. I finally got ahold of him on the phone today, and found out that I have 10 6x6x10' posts for sale.  :( The last one was much worse though, it was $3000.00 of 2x8x8' Ponderosa Pine.  :'(
Do any of you get this kinda stuff? What do you do to stop/deal with it?
Do people not hold any stock in their own word any more?  ???

[4x4American]

I just rememebered the other day, I was stiffed on an order of 100- 2x4x8's two years ago.  I was able to sell it to someone else but I wasnt happy

[Cedarman]

There is enough stress in life with out adding more.  Not knowing if you will get paid for an order adds stress.  Get a deposit and your stress will go down.  If you saw a weird order that you cannot sell and your profit is 20%, you have to saw 5 times that amount to recover the money lost on that order.  You may feel uncomfortable at charging a deposit because you may think it means you do not trust your customer.  Why put yourself in a position where you need to trust.  Get a deposit and the trust will be in that your customer will come back for their wood.
Regular customers have built trust over an extended period of time by doing what they say they are going to do. 
You can reward them as you choose.

[paul case]

There is another option.

I am quiting sawing custom orders. It seems I never have less than 3 ''small'' orders of lumber sitting waiting on someone to come pick them up. I have 2 right now that have been ready for 6 months and 1 that has been here since the second week of last June. I am sure I will be eating all that lumber.

I have searched and found a few outlets for my lumber/cants that pay well and I find we can do a better job sawing for them as they want the same thing every time. I also have a few good suppliers of logs. The only custom stuff I would be interested in sawing from here on is If they bring the logs for me to saw.

PC

[Arkyrick]

75% of the calls I get are full of carp they either want to order something and not put down a deposit or say they are coming and never show. I always ask for 1/2 down that sorts out the Riff Raff. If they are a first time customer I always ask for 1/2 down. After I get to know them I'm more agreeable.

[4x4American]

Paul, wait til you see the logs they will bring you, and they always seem to want something impossible.  Like a 8x8 out of an 8" log.  Or 10' lumber out of an 8' log lol.  These people think I'm a miracle worker.  I have at least a few thousand bf of customers logs to saw yet.  My logger friend is putting together a tractor and trailer load of various stuff for me to saw for him, I'm expecting that one to be fine though, except, he wants to do some horse trading instead of $ trading.

[WDH]

I swore off hickory and custom sawing  .  Mutually independent. 

[Ricker]

Not exactly stiffed today but plenty irritated.  Guy calls Friday needs 15, 8ft 6x6, oak beams asap. I agreed to get them done for him and would call him when I had 7 done so he could come get them so he could get his project started, time was short so I got no deposit. Worked sunday and called him this morning to come get the first batch and the rest done by end of the day.  He said He got called away and can't pick up until next week and only needs 10 now.  At least I didn't have the 15 done and have 5 left to trip over all winter.  If I could find the markets I would give up custom sawing like Mr. Case in a second.

[paul case]

My newest dislike is 6' walnut. We must have sawed about 200 of them for a friend( term used loosely) a while back. Scott just got to slabbing them boogers a lil thicker and movin on. He could make 6 bundles of slabs and 2 bundles of lumber from them a day!!!

I know about small too short crappy logs that folks seem to think are made of gold. I have a line I use about them right off the bat......''It is hard to mess up firewood!''.

PC

[4x4American]

lol lol thats a good one.  I get alot of window shoppers here too..they just waste your time and then go away without buying anything... >:(

[longtime lurker]

One I do get a lot of the time is people that want me to hold something for them. This is never with the framing and flooring stuff - it's always the high end cabinet woods. I used to not mind - now I do.

If I know a guy wants something and he's just cash strapped I dont mind holding it, and reaching out to see if he still wants it if I get another sale it might go into. Then its either pay up or its gone, and I've never had any problems there... might cost me a phone call but its also good customer relations.

The ones I've learnt to hate are the ones that pay the deposit, then dont come back to get it in a reasonable time frame. In effect they're using me as free storage, and we all know how shed space is at a premium in this game. I dont mind holding stuff for a few weeks but after a few months (or in one case 2 years, he'd paid the price in full and is a "friend of a friend") it really annoys me.

Legally after some period of time goods not collected revert to the seller and the deposit stays too - but I've never seen that as a great way to generate good will. One of the things I toss around in my head is either not accepting deposits in cases like that, or refunding the deposit after 90 days if the sale has not gone through.

[Peter Drouin]

I save stuff for customers .................................................. Times up.  ;D

[elitts]

I'm just going to offer the outlook of an outsider here.

Up until about 2 months ago, if I had looked up a sawmill on a search engine or through a website and ordered lumber, I would have done so assuming that they had tons of the stuff just sitting around.  Basically like a mini lumber yard.  I would have asked for 100 boards 1" thick, 8" wide and 8 feet long and I would have assumed I'd get exactly that, in exactly those dimensions.  And if I ended up cancelling my project without picking up the lumber, I would have assumed it was sort of a "no harm/no foul" situation because I didn't take anything from you, and obviously you can just sell the lumber to the next guy who needs it.  I may or may not have actually called back to let the mill know.  My assumption would have been that "worst case" maybe the mill stacked the wood up for me, and had to move the stack back to a different place instead. 

So, while there are always douche-bags out there that just don't care, a basic run-down on the actual process in fulfilling the order for a first-timer probably wouldn't hurt.  Particularly since if you are anything like me, you don't love the idea of going somewhere to buy stuff and saying "Help me Please! I don't even know the right way to order the wood I need."

I know that if I'd ever done this to a mill, then found out what I know now about what I probably cost the sawmill in time and money, I'd be horribly embarrassed.

[paul case]

Yeah we are not the local mini lumberyard.

The problem is no 2 orderers want the same thing.

Scott and I have come up with a new get rich quick scheme. If someone asks us to do something we dont want to we simply say'' we can do that but it will cost you $4.5million''. No one has wanted us to do what we dont want to yet though.

PC

[WV Sawmiller]

elitts,

   Glad you understand the process better. Any lumber I happen to have in stock is normally the odd cuts left over from previous sawing jobs or just some I cut to keep the salvaged logs from rotting. Few of us have the space and I don't have the equipment either to keep a lot of lumber in stock. its a lot easier to keep logs in stock or in my case, go cut a few, and saw to whatever sizes people want. That gives me flexibility to cut to the size they need without a lot of extra storage and handling involved.

[Jim_Rogers]

But i have a yard full of a customers lumber that should have been picked up this summer.
Its a pain to plow around it and i'm sick of moving it >:(
Won't happen again i know that

A line from my rate sheet: "f. Storage fees for lumber in yard will begin 7 days after notice of completion of job.
g. The rate of $20 per week will be added to total job fee for storing lumber.
Prices subject to change without notice."

So if the guy is a jerk then the storage rate changes per my mood after dealing with him.
If it's a lot of lumber then the rate is per footprint in my yard. Three stacks means three footprints. Three times the storage fees.

I charge for stickers. And usually they don't bring them back. If they do, which as been very rare, they usually don't get any money back.

Jim Rogers

[Brad_bb]

I needed some timbers I don't have the right logs for.  I started calling sawyers I found on google and woodmizer pro network.  Found a guy who was supposed to go check his yard to see if the log he had in mind would work,  and call me right back. Didn't call me back Sat.  I left a message on Monday, no call.  I called today and got machine again.  This afternoon he finally called me back.  Said he could cut the 3 Walnut timbers I needed.  I asked if he needed a deposit or anything.  He said no.  He did understand that was a sawyer too from out discussion, so maybe that gave him some confidence.  He said he can cut them tomorrow and I should be able to pick up Thursday.  He didn't ask for my last name, where I live or anything else surprisingly.  I will do everything in my power NOT to stiff him.

[Peter Drouin]

 

  

 


 
I try to have is all cut and stacked. 99.9% of my customers won't wait for me to cut it.
I just miss a $3000, 00 order because I did not have all of it on hand. :(

[tule peak timber]

WOW ! What a nice set up !!

[Peter Drouin]

WOW ! What a nice set up !!

Thanks, I try.

[tule peak timber]

Having a clean professional set up like yours is a big sales draw. Your drying  buildings look nicer than my house ! ;D

[longtime lurker]

Peter, what are you using in your yard there? By those pics it looks like you're binding sawdust/shavings into it to get like a "mud brick" effect. Or is that just loosely scattered on top to take up a bit of slop?

Reason I'm asking is because in this new place I'm starting from scratch with hardstand etc...given how it rains here I need it badly and soon... and I'd actually been wondering about mixing sawdust and perhaps cement powder into the soil to try and avoid using the hundreds of ton of rock we've used before. Rock is expensive and the way that big old log loader of ours compacts the ground it disappears into the ground forever. (The opposite of farming, where the soil grows rocks I guess)

Had a sanded yard once - that was a disaster because any log that got dropped/rolled out of a stack/came into ground contact got sawteeth breakers embedded in. We went back to the heavy ballast rocks like they use under railroad ties because at least when one of them is embedded into a log you can see it.

[WV Sawmiller]

LL,

   If you have to use gravel at least use the crushed/smaller stuff. We had big river rocks in the military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and they were ankle breakers. Big round rocks supposedly for dust abatement and they were dangerous to walk on.

[longtime lurker]

The problem with the crushed smaller stuff is that if a logs come in contact with it it tends to embed, and particularly with logs that have been in the yard a while finer rock and sand will work its way into the cracks in the bark.
For that reason I prefer crushed rock thats had the fines screened out - say nothing smaller then 1", and mostly closer to 2". It rolls in eventually but as you say when it's loose its a mess of ankle breakers.

I'm just wondering about doing some kind of mud brick type thing where I spread sawdust (being circle millers its dust not sawflour) and maybe some cement as well over the yard, then plowing it in when wet and then putting a roller over it to compact it. Seems it could work... maybe. Sawdust is cheap *laffs* Fire might be a problem tho.

Best solution is asphalt but who can afford that?

[redprospector]

Well, I didn't get stiffed today, but I did get robbed.
I got to the mill knowing that I had about 7 gallons of gasoline plus what was in the mill. I got pretty upset when I found that a 5 gallon gas jug was missing. My wife came over and asked me if I had been trying to siphon gas out of an old truck. They had brought an old jug with no caps, or spouts, and an Oklahoma credit card (siphon hose). Their hose had a hole in it so it wouldn't work for them. They left their old jug and took my new full jug.
I put their jug and hose in plain sight where their tracks were (now I've gotta build a fence). I left a note on it saying that if they needed gas bad enough to steal it, to come see me and I'd help them out, and we would pray about their situation.
I can't stand thiefs as bad as someone who would stiff me.
Not only did it cost me 5 gallons of gas, it cost me an hour out of my day to go get a new $15 gas jug and put $11 of gas in it. I guess it's time to invest in cameras again.

[SwampDonkey]

There are a lot of "customers" that really don't know what they want before or after the order is made plus the ones that want it yesterday and visit 3 mills for the same order and might pick it up at one. Might not to. Not counting the ones without a dime to their name and offering to buy the whole operation.  ;D :D :D

[Peter Drouin]

Peter, what are you using in your yard there? By those pics it looks like you're binding sawdust/shavings into it to get like a "mud brick" effect. Or is that just loosely scattered on top to take up a bit of slop?

Wood chips, I get a full bucket in John drive around shaking the bucket. I put it on lightly not covering the ground. That keeps the dust down. Too much and rain will make chip mud. :D
In the Fall I drive around with the bucket down and pick it up. Now it's all ground up and full of dirt. I spread it where I need erosion control. In the winter I use it like sand. With the sun it will sink in the ice good to walk on.
I do sell the chips once a year to a big outfit, All summer customers come and buy it too.
All paid for before it goes away, except the big outfit, But they're buying 700 to 1000 yards at a time.  8) 8)



  

  

  

  

 
The sawdust I trade the farmers for cow pooo. ;D

[SlowJoeCrow]

Peter, what kind of base do you have under the chips?

[Peter Drouin]

Peter, what kind of base do you have under the chips?

Just the gravel that's there, Most of my land is gravel. When I scoop up some for a customer I'm 4" off the ground.

[4x4American]

Lucky you with the gravel, I gots thick nasty greasy chocolate bar sticky slippery gooey cantankerous make you wanna punch stuff clay.

[Brucer]

I tried using sawdust for dust control. It worked great in the dry summer. After it started raining in the fall I discovered that "chip mud" that Peter refers to.

Notice that Peter picks up the chips in the fall.

[redprospector]

Time to turn this learning experience into cash!


 
Off to the auction with it.

I finally got in touch with the would be customer. He said that he was sorry, but he couldn't get back across the border from Mexico.    I'm not sure I believe that one. :D

[SwampDonkey]

One thing going for you is that it looks dry and warm down there.  ;D

[paul case]

I think that must be a location excuse, as in your location dictates that one. I might not ever have that one used on me but it is a timely excuse.

Good luck at the auction. I hope it brings enough money.
PC

[redprospector]

One thing going for you is that it looks dry and warm down there.  ;D

It has been pretty dry I guess. It was 72 F on the way back yesterday.
But it was in the lower 30's when we got home. I know that's still pretty warm compared to where you are, but a 40 degree temperature swing is tough wherever you are. Supposed to rain in the basin, and snow in the mountains next week.

[redprospector]

I think that must be a location excuse, as in your location dictates that one. I might not ever have that one used on me but it is a timely excuse.

Good luck at the auction. I hope it brings enough money.
PC

Yeah, I agree. When you're looking for an excuse...any of them will do.  :D
We're hoping too. Went to visit a couple of friends with mills, they both showed me bundles that had ruined waiting on someone else. Ain't happening here.
I'm praying that it's a sellers market for this auction.

[alabama]

Why not put together a generic contract that has specifics? This will cut down all the stress . On custom orders you require payment in full or 60% deposit? Your not a bank and you aren't a self storage rental facility. For me if it's a reputable company I don't have a problem paying in full. Food for thought.

[redprospector]

Why not put together a generic contract that has specifics? This will cut down all the stress . On custom orders you require payment in full or 60% deposit? Your not a bank and you aren't a self storage rental facility. For me if it's a reputable company I don't have a problem paying in full. Food for thought.

I now charge a 50% deposit on all custom orders. So far I haven't had any complaints.

[moodnacreek]

It gets worse all the time. I cut 5 orders of 2x oak in September and in November I was sticking them after calling every one again. That's 5 more people on the no cut list. I learned the hard way not to take down payments because then you have to store it until they need it. It's best to own all the wood in your yard  until actually sold. If they want something odd they should pay up front [unless you know them]

[4x4American]

I got stiffed on a small siding order a few weeks ago, and of course I stayed late to saw it out for the guy...

[petefrom bearswamp]

I have 3 3x3x12 hemlock sticks that have been hanging around my mill site since August.
The guy calls every so often but hasnt showed up yet.
Have had other instances if getting stiffed but always (fortunately) for small orders.
bigger orders I get a substantial deposit.

[redprospector]

Time to turn this learning experience into cash!


 
Off to the auction with it.

I finally got in touch with the would be customer. He said that he was sorry, but he couldn't get back across the border from Mexico.    I'm not sure I believe that one. :D

Just an update.
While I was thinking about what to take to the next auction I remembered that I never posted my results.
My 2x8's brought more than I had agreed to sell them for in the first place.  ;D
I took a second load, mostly 1x's and one small bundle of 1x6 Pine brought $1.47 a bd ft. Everything else on average brought within .02 a bd ft of what I charge retail after the auctioneer took his cut (God is good!). I'm gathering up a bunch of side wood, basicly cleaning up around the mill, to take to an auction in early July (I hope it does as well as the first batch). The auction company has ordered quite a bit of lumber from me as well.
May be a new nitch market for me.  ;D

[longtime lurker]

Yanno... I firmly believe  that mostly things happen for a reason. Glad that one seems to have worked out for you.

Me, I'm way out on the dark side of the moon: we've picked up a major account and sales growth is through the roof, and by the time we get paid what's coming in isn't keeping up with the cost of getting the increased volume month on month out. got about $1000 left in the working account and I need to figure how to stretch it to cut $12k worth of orders this week before we get paid at the end of month. Crazy stuff but we're playing with the big boys now.

[4x4American]

Thats awesome Red P  8)


LL idk how it works over there but can you look into getting a line of credit?

[petefrom bearswamp]

The guy finally came for the 3x3s 2 weeks ago.
I also have a 2x16x8 plank that was mot picked up.
think I will make 2x4s out of it.

[Magicman]

Or a 32"X48" table. ;D  Four 2X4's ain't worth much.   :-\

[longtime lurker]

Thats awesome Red P  8)


LL idk how it works over there but can you look into getting a line of credit?

Banks aint real business friendly here right now: they'll lend you the money only if you didnt need to borrow it kinda thing. And I just dont trust this business... been in it too long maybe and I'm not afaid of debt but I would be very reluctant to use the house as security for a sawmill overdraft.

Debtor finance appeals to me... bank advances you money against the value of each invoice as it gets issued. Rates are around 6% which is about half of what they want for an overdraft. It would really work with where I'm at because my issue lies solely in having operating capital tied up in accounts for 90 days before i can use it to go again. Problem being that the bank aint interested in giving me that option unless my book is worth $500k + per annum in sales. This guy might just put me there but I got to do it now, and I need workin cash now... not in 12 months time when the sales history is already there like the banks want.

Banks just aint real business friendly here right now...

[4x4American]

Do you have any farm credit places?  Over here the lumber biz is considered ag and places like farm credit east are very flexible

[longtime lurker]

Here you might scrape a sawmill past as agriculture if it was a sideline to a larger agricultural enterprise. Logging and plantation related stuff is classed as agriculture, principally lumber sales would be retail. .. but a production mill is classed as manufacturing.

(Yeah seemed dumb to me too, but as we've grown i can see why it makes sense.?

[Magicman]

My tree farm (LP) owns my sawmill (LLC).  I do not sell lumber, but rather am providing only a sawing service and producing a product from the customer's logs.  100% Agricultural.  I am not paid and do not draw a "salary", so the sawmill's total income goes into the farm account.  I am reimbursed quarterly for all of my expenses.  It works quite well for me.   ;D