more barn/shed building questions

[LKasdorf]

I need to build 2 buildings (at least) soon. One will be a shed to cover my MD sawmill, and the other will be a rather large barn/shed which I plan to keep my tractors and implements in, and a place to do car maintenance. I want it tall enough that I can do a 2nd story or loft to store things that can't get wet in case of a flood.

Flood, you say? I am building in the 100 year flood zone. I live on a river. The area in which I plan to build actually stays pretty dry most of the time, however. It is very rare for water to ever get that high, but it has been known to happen.

I plan to do pole buildings for both. The sawmil shed will be fairly simple. I'd like to cover the entire mill, although some just cover on end. So this means I'll want to have a large span on the long sode to accommodate long logs. I figure about a 20' span could be done, using some sort of engineered beam.

The bigger questions relate to the large barn.

First, the poles. I'd like to build it with utility poles, so that I can get some decent height. I think that treated 4x6 or 6x6 come no longer than 16'. I called the phone company, and of course was told that they no longer sell old poles, because of the health/environmental hazards of creosote. Where can you still get these, or can I in fact get pt dimensional timbers longer than 16'?

Second, drainage. I figure that after I install the poles, it would be a good idea to build up the foundation so that it is a foot or 2 above the surrounding ground. I figure that starting with large rock, tamping, and successive layers of smaller stone would give me a good foundation that would drain well.

I'd like to pour a floating slab on part or all of the building, to facilitate car work. I suspect that a slab on top of a properly done rock/gravel base would be ok, right?

Third, the property where i'll be building this has loads of box elder trees. I wonder if I could mill these up and use them in the building for anything? Like, could they be milled for 2x8 rafters or joists? I don't think it would make good siding, but I don't know.

I've also been kicking around the idea I've heard about not doing a pole building, but pouring a slab and embedding big angle iron. I think I can get enough suitable 4" angle iron for free from my local steel fabricator's dumpster. So, if it could get the foundation done well enough to pour a slab, then this is appealing because I wouldn't need PT wood for poles.

In fact, if i didn't feel like doing a slab, maybe I could dig holes with my auger, fill with cement and embed the angle iron.

I know this is a lot of rambling, but maybe y'all can share some insight.

Thanks-
Lynn Kasdorf

[OneWithWood]

Hi, Lynn.

Dimension lumber is availabel in 20' lengths to use as headers but is pricey.  It might be easier to build a composite beam out of 2x material and plywood.

If you are building a pole building you will need at least a couple helpers.  If you are building it yourself you might consider stick framing.

If you are a serious auto wrench pour a minimum 4" slab ( 6" is ideal) with reinforcing mesh, spend a couple grand and put in a hydraulic lift.  Takes the drudgery out of wrenching on your back and is a lot safer than jackstands.

How big are your box elders and how many do you have?

[Percy]

Hey Lynn
Its good to ask alot of questions before starting somthing like this as many mistakes have been made(specially by me) and others insight can be very helpfull. On the big span(mine is 23 feet) I used a 7 X 14 X 25 foot Sitka spruce beam and  have 12 foot 2X 10's, 4 of em(two each from the vertical beams) bridgewashered and reddyrodded at about a 45 degree angle.
I had three feet of wet snow on the roof this winter and it took it no problem.
Another thing that I think is important AND I screwed up on is 360 degree access to your mill building. Things change(equipment, cutting plans etc) and unfettered accsess to all sides of your mill is a big plus in my opinion. A high roof is good, my new LT70 just barely fits where the old LT40 had mucho breathing room.

A higher deck is also a good idea(gravity can be your friend) and pushing sawdust off the side of it and scooping it away with bobcat/tractor/whatever is a breeze. Boards can easily be loaded onto a pickup/trailer/whatever  easier if the deck is high.

Then you are gonna need lumber sheds,kiln sheds,equipment sheds, yaddayadda....its good thing you have a mill ya??

[LKasdorf]

My biggest concern with pouring a slab is getting the rock & gravel foundation really solid, and raised up from the surrounding ground. Perhaps I could job this part out, but I do have a tractor, and I think I can borrow a roller from a neighbor. And if I can get the engine running, I have a jumping tamper. I also have a homemade rear weight with 3pt hitch- a 55 gal plastic drum filled with concrete. I could apply serious tamping by raising and lowering on the rock.

Then, if I'm pouring a slab, would it still make sense to do a pole structure (and have the slab floating) or perhaps cinderblock short wall and stick build the rest? Or perhaps the approach of burying the large angle iron in the concrete and attaching poles to these (I rather like this concept).

Regarding the box elders, it is not clear yet exactly where the building(s) will go, so I don't know how many I'll be removing. Some are about 12"-16" at the base and most are more like 8-10".

Good info on the span. I may look into building a beam. Gotta research this.

By the way, the roof will be brick red Ondura. I've done this on my other existing buildings and it looks and works great.

[Haytrader]

L,


Are you calling a 4" angle iron big? I may have missread but that wouldn't work very well.

Somewhere in the picture archives there is supposed to be a pic of a 30 ft. header I made for my saw shed. It is made with two 2x6 inch rectangular tubings, one on top of the other. They weren't 30 ft. long so I staggered them. On the end of the shed I made one 26 ft. If you can't find the pic and want to see it just let me know and I will e mail them to you.

Another way to span a large width is with trailer house frame. It is called junior I beam and comes in up to 12" widths. They make it with a slight arch for pre stress.

Haytrader

[Bibbyman]

For continued reading on sawsheds,  here is a link to an earlier thread.

Building a Sawmill Shed

[DanG]

Lynn, check with some of the larger mills in your area. Some of them will pressure treat your lumber, so you could produce your own materials. I found one here (25 miles away) that will treat mine for $100mbf. I understand it is higher in other areas, but still a bargain.  At this rate, a 14' 4x6 should cost $2.80 to treat, and a full cut 4x6 should be plenty stout for your posts.

[ksu_chainsaw]

another thought for posts for the building would be to laminate 2 x 8 treated or larger boards together.  we had a barn built once that used 3-2x8's laminated together and the middle one was shorter so that the roof trusses would fit into the notch and then the trusses only had to have one bolt holding them in.  around here the power company gives the old poles to the landowner if they want them, or they backhaul to a main yard to be disposed of in the landfill.

Good luck

Charles

[solidwoods]

A good beam is take a mobile home main frame I beam (if from a fire not one that is warped from heat) and custom cut 2ea 2x10 to fit each side and sandwich the beam between the 2x.  I though drilled and bolted it together.  Or if you prefer fresh steel use 2x10 or 2x12 and sandwich 10"-12" strip steel. These will span quite a bit. You can up grade the 2" to 3"  or go with 1/4" steel, if you need more
JIM

[Oregon_Sawyer]

I can't help you with the large span, you seem to be getting a lot of advice on that anyway.  Around here you can get telephone poles given to you if you tell them you are going to use them for fence posts.

I built a 24x48 pole barn just when I bought my mill.  I had a contracter put up the poles and the metal roof.  Then he put a concrete slab in.  Originally I wasn't going to put the slab in until later.  Any way we put in fabric that they use on roads under the crushed and compacted rock.  We used concrete with fiberglass mixed in.  The contractor said all slabs will crack but so far 5years and no cracks.

I then framed inbetween the poles and used lumber off the mill.  We have since added on a 12x48 leanto using only lumber I cut.

As I hadn't started cutting lumber when we started the shop I was not sure of my ability to cut good enought lumber.  I would cut everything now.

If I was doing it again I would have done the same with the slab. But, I would have put radient heat in the slab.  I would have stick framed the building as the poles were not necessary.  I sided it with log siding.  The end result was a building that looks like a log home.

Your building will not be big enough. :D  No matter how big you build it 8).  I thought I would store my mill in the winter inside but after about 2 months it was obvious that it would never happen.

Good Luck
Try to make it fun so you won't hate it.
Loren