land owner got ripped off?

[SwampDonkey]

Around here, 99.9% of the time there is no forester involved because the owner doesn't want a middleman and feels he knows what he wants and who. There is no changing that, and most have not been persuaded otherwise. Simple as that. All I've ever seen most foresters used for was their cruise, that's about where it ends because the owner has access to up to date markets from forest products marketing boards and with his cruise can multiply the numbers. In most cases it's only about the money and 95% of hired harvests is clear cutting. Otherwise the owners do some harvest work, mostly for firewood needs and sell small volumes every once in awhile.

[Tom]

It is a business deal and if only the money is considered then "Buyer beware".

But, it is not just a business deal where just the money is considered.  It's not a land clearing operation, it's a gardening job.  That's why Foresters have a place in the woods.

From the reading of this thread, it seems to me that Loggers are only interested in the ability to take down the trees and get the logs sold.  They are independent enough that they want to do it and not answer to anyone for it but the landowner.

Foresters spend a lot of time in school and in the woods to learn what to do for the Forest.  They are also trained, supposedly, in the business part of growing trees, like taxes, as well as the cruising, grading and selling/buying part.  But, it doesn't stop there.  A Forester is a master gardener for those who haven't the knowledge to manage their own garden.  As much as we landowners might think we know, because it is ours, we usually don't.  It's sales and the lack of promotion that is killing Forestry.  Loggers are knocking on doors and talking their craft.  Loggers are seen on the roads with trucks loaded with logs, seen in the woods taking down trees, even having a TV show about them now.  That amounts to a lot of visibility and, because of that, landowners might go straight to them thinking that the job is done there.

Foresters, on the other hand, work behind the scenes.  Unfortunately they aren't into self promotion, so the public doesn't recognize them as part of the equation.  That's terribly unfortunate and a lot of the blame has to be laid directly on the Foresters.

Still, if it weren't for Foresters, loggers would eventually run out of trees.  It's a shame that they don't recognize that there is more to it than convincing a landowner that their woodlot is only as valuable as the logs that can be removed today.

It's a little bit like the trucking industry.  Every kid wants to be a trucker.  Its a glorious job.  You get to drive a big shiny truck down the road and make people move out of your way.  You can brag about moving the nations goods and blow air horns to make the little kids marvel.  But, behind all of that is a trained and schooled mechanic with a wrench who watches tire wear, changes oil, fixes broken stuff, and makes sure that the truck is ready for its next load.  He doesn't share in the glory, but without him, there would be a lot of drivers out of work.  It is not in either ones best interest to undercut the other, even if the driver knows how to change his battery, or the mechanic knows how to shift the gears.

I have a lot more respect for someone who knows his job and knows where his job starts and stops. 

It is considered unethical for a Forester to bid on the same job he is cruising, even if he knows how to run a chainsaw.  I think there should be some ethics assigned to the logger who cuts out the Forester.

I sawed wood. I didn't take down trees, nor run a kiln.  I could have, but would rather tell the customer that I did what I did and would help them find someone who did the other.

The problem with trees is that, if you screw over a landowner, he doesn't just move on to the next batch of trees tomorrow.  He may never see another crop.  I think there should be enough guilt associated with it that the ethics of fairness take place.  You can't justify screwing someone over by saying, "He should have known better."

[Phorester]

If a landowner and a timber buyer agree on a price, both a buyer and a seller are satisfied.  It's a fair business deal.  A landowner would have a very hard time convincing a court that he got cheated by the timber buyer after he agreed to the price offered.

I get called when the landowner has sold timber, then his trees start getting cut, then his neighbor/wife/brother-in-law/best friend/whoever, tells him he got screwed by the timber buyer.  Bull. The buyer made an offer, the landowner accepted. My first question to the landowner, how does your neighbor/wife/brother-in-law/best friend/whoever, know how much your timber is worth?  They don't. It's the old story of you selling your used car thinking you made a good deal, then your buddy says, shoot, I could have got a lot more for it  than that. Easy to say, and human nature to run down somebody else's deal. If the landowner got paid less than the timber was really worth, then he did it to himself. This is why a landowner should get more than one offer on his timber.

In my area, if it is a bid sale, quite often the low bid is about 1/2 of the high bid.  Some landowners immediately think that the low bidder is trying to steal his timber.  My response;- think about this, Mr. landowner, how can he be trying to steal your timber?  The lower bidder knew this was a bid sale, that he would be competing with other buyers for this sale.   He bid what it was worth to him at the time based on his costs of getting the trees out and markets for the products he would produce from your trees. Maybe he saw problems with a stream crossing, access to a State road, etc., that he didn't want to deal with or didn't know how to. Another reason - maybe he didn't really want the timber, but wants people to know that he will bid on sales, so he bids low actually hoping he doesn't get it but keeps his name in the bidders' pot in the local area.

Look at the high bidder's bid. He probably had better markets for the particular tree, sizes, and quality than the low bidder.  He may even have paid more than the timber was worth because he needed the sale to keep his crews or mill operating and is willing to take a loss on this sale  to accomplish this, hoping to make it up down the road. He looked at the afore-mentioned problems and knew he could successfully solve them. He may have been trying to knock a fellow buyer out of the market just for spite. Lots of reasons for the spread between low and high bids on a bidded sale.

Regarding MDlogging's example, the buyer offering the same price for the timber he originally made by himself after it was put up for general bids, how would the landowner know this was the best bid unless it was put up for bids by a consulting forester who knows the timber markets and put his bid out to many, many more buyers than the landowner knows about himself?  This insures that every buyer in the market for this timber was duly notified, so the prices offered were a true representation of the actual market at the time.  The consulting forester made sure of that for the landowner.

I've heard too many stories from landowners who had a consultant sell their timber who say that a timber buyer told him later that he would have paid that much for it and I wouldn't have had to pay that consultant his commission. That's so easy to say after the sale.  Another line of bull. As Tom says, the landowner will get more for his $2300 commission paid to the forester.  He should get the sale managed by the forester, who will see to it that the contract is adhered to, that minimum damage is done to remaining timber and the property, will see to it that all laws are adhered to so the landowner won't get fined, will see that the skid trails, landings, stream crossings, haul roads, are put back into good shape before the logger leaves.

A fair business deal is when an informed buyer and an informed seller both agree upon a price. Most times the buyer, who buys timber every week for his living, is informed, but the landowner, who may sell timber only once or twice in his entire lifetime, is not. If the landowner is not an informed seller, meaning that he does not know the timber markets,which they usually don't,  that's where a consulting forester working for the landowner comes into play.

This may not be true in other areas, but in my area a good consulting forester will get a landowner 200% - 400% more for the same timber than the landowner selling it himself. After marking and tallying the species of trees, their sizes, their quality, the consultant knows the buyers who will pay top dollar for these particular trees and he will make a concerted effort to get them to bid on it.  A typical landowner knows of maybe 3 or 4 timber buyers.  A consultant will put out bids to 50 or more buyers. He will monitor the  logging operation for the landowner,keep him out of legal hot water with water quality laws, permits, etc,  and insure that he gets paid all the money he is due.  All this is well worth his 5% - 20% commission.

Back to ga jones original question, he as a buyer made an offer, the landowner as a seller accepted. A legal business deal was completed.
 

[SwampDonkey]

Sometimes when the forester puts his shingle out, some loggers get a little testy. I've seen it once in awhile.  I think they all believe we are working for Irving. I've had comments to that effect in mall parking lots. :D

[Ron Scott]

That can happen. ;) Evidently, the landowner was more comfortable with a consultant forester working for him, soliciting bids, and manageing the harvest through to completion according to established contract terms.

Hopefully the high bid was not so far out of line from the other bids received.

[Ron Scott]

Two Cases of Timber Theft in Louisiana

Arkansas Man Accused of Louisiana Timber Theft

Associated Press (December 9) - Louisiana Agriculture and Forestry Commissioner Mike Strain said an Arkansas man was arrested on a felony timber theft charge after an absentee landowner from Los Angeles, California, hired him to cut 40 acres of timberland in Bienville Parish. The perpetrator cut the 40 acres and sold the wood, but allegedly did not pay the landowner for the timber. The timber was valued at $29,000.

Campti Man Charged with Timber Theft

KTBS.com (Louisiana, December 6) - A Natchitoches Parish man is facing charges of timber theft. Louisiana Department of Agrciulture and Forestry enforcement officers say the perpetrator cut timber from a property in June and July. He allegedly sold the timber to a mill, but never paid the estate from the profits.

[craigc]

In the state of Illinois a "Forester" does not need a degree in anything just a business card.  The only good foresters in my area are the state foresters. They mark the timber according to what needs taken out not what will make them more money.  They have no financial intrest in the deal.  People have talked about how foresters will come out to view the job and make suggestion or manage.  I completed a private forester timber sell this summer and never saw the guy on the job once.  In fifteen years of buying private forester jobs I have seen one forester hit my landing.  I will call my local state foresters and they love to come out to see the job.  I have called them out on many of my own sales to help me mark the timber and share ideas.  Recently there was a private forester sell and he called my buddy to ask if he was bidding, my buddy said "No don't you know two  of the area Grade mills are not buying logs."  The forester had no idea.  The privates around here are just as big of high graders as some of the loggers 10% of a $300 Veneer White Oak is alot easier to mark than the double White Oak with epicormic branching standing right next to it.  I know there are good Private Foresters out there. But treat a landowner like you want to be treated and things seem to work out good for all.  Alot of the high priced bid sells end up with  bad harvesting practices because they are in a hurry to get the wood out.  And if the forester doesn't come out who cares.  I have 4 more private sells to do then I am going to try to get all the wood are mill needs by myself.  Some of you have talked about some very good foresters I just wish we had them here, but what do you expect from Illinois we gave you Obama.

[Ron Scott]

I agree that Illinois may be lacking in certified foresters. None are listed by the Association of Consulting Foresters.

It's hard to understand that a "real forester" wouldn't be out on their logging operations and taking resposibility and gaining experience from their work accomplishments.

We're on our logging jobs at least once a week as a minimum and more often depending upon the logging contractor and operation.

[loggit]

Here is a topic that can go round and round on. So I will speak primarily of our own experiences.

First off when we cut a woodlot, it is to meet the landowners needs, not ours. Our success is a by product of their success. We are selling wood to the mills but working for the landowner,we are not working for the mill. We cut a woodlot as if we are going to be the one cutting the timber off it the next time.

I have seen both sides of the spectrum too. From where once the timber was cut, it didn't open up as thought, but the forester and landowner made out but the logger got stuck. I've cut marked timber where I thought what was the forester thinking. Once trees are cut it changes the complexion of the forest, I have left marked trees by a forester as it would have opened up the woods to drastic. On the flip side I've seen where the logger paid dirt cheap prices and the landowner didn't make out as he should have. I have seen loggers mark timber where they strictly hygraded the woods also.

As far as scale goes there are alot of mills who scale, grade and pay right on the landing. If we have a concerning landowner we encourage them to be present at that time and accomodate them to that. Also what was stated before, as far as some discrepancy in bids, yes some mills simply put in a bid with absolutely no intention of buying the logs but using it as a feeler to see what other mills are paying. And a forester from one of the largest mills here told me that personally.

At the end of the day I think it is who one feels comfortable with,( Forester or contractor,) the element of trust and reputation. Reputation is a great tool if good. For us recommendations and repeat business is something to strive for. We try to educate landowners because I find out that their unfamilarity with timber is the biggest drawback to them making a decision.

[Ron Wenrich]

craigc

Sounds a lot like Pennsylvania.  There is no licensing, so anyone can call themselves a forester.  Guys have gotten around that by calling themselves "timber manager" or some other name.  But, licensing nor certification guarantees that there is any competency in how the forester carries out his practice.  Knowledge and application are 2 different animals.

[Cedarman]

On the other hand the guy that paid the $2300 now knows the $23,000 was the top price.  He was willing to pay that money for that assurance.   More often than not, I see it go the other way and the 10% was money well spent.
Many years ago, I bid on a tract of mostly poplar.  Bids ranged from 16,000 to 87,000 and many in between.  About 10 bidders were in play.   I was in the 60s.  Were some unethical, don't know.  

The land owner needs to be educated and not sit on their butts just trusting someone else to give them the best deal.  It don't happen.  Landowners should be proactive.

Would a rancher let a cattle buyer come in, pick the cattle he wanted to buy, tell him the weights, tell him the quality and just accept it.  No, the cattleman picks the ones he wants to sell, runs them across the scale, knows the daily market prices,  manages his herd to be as productive as possible.

[craigc]

On the recent sales I bought we redid the foresters timber contract between the landowner and myself.  It now is a contract between the landowner, myself and the forester.  It could be the first one of its kind in Illinois. I think it is only logical that the forester be ties to the contract.  How do other states or foresters do thier contracts and what are thier obligations?  Here they just spray paint send out a few bid notices and then collect a check and good-bye.  I enjoy meeting with a landowner that has some knowledge or desire for it.  If they are management driven I enjoy walking in the woods and will try to get the state forester to come out to meet with them and see if we are on the same idea. If not change to thier plan and move ahead. Landowners not intrested in any type of managment just money I just walk away from. They seem to be the biggest problems.
I can give a better price on a job I have marked myself because I walk to every tree and evaluate it.  In a bid job it is a cruise through the woods, check the venner trees that are marked,overall timber quality and back to the truck. The low bidding thing doesn't make sense to me give the person true value of the timber, treat others the way you would like to be treated.

[Autocar]

I feel if the landowner is happy and the logger is happy I don't see a problem with that. I seldom buy any forest marked timber. Reason being theres to many clauses in the contract like they want a $1000.00 and will hold it for a year so if a feild tile four feet under the ground you crossed getting to the woodlot gets cracked crossing it with a heavy load that will pay the repair bill. Or $ incase theres damage to other standing trees. Plus bid sales as far as I am concerened theres no money to be made after every company in three states have bid on it. I have always bought timber though word of mouth,if I get a call from a widow lady old older gentelman I will always tell them to talk it over with the kids so every one is up front. I have a good reputation and want to keep it, make one bad deal and everyone in tri state area will know. I have other thoughts but for now will keep my mouth shut  ;D

[barbender]

Land owners that are ignorant of their timbers value and how things work are always going to be susceptible to getting swindled by either crooked loggers or crooked foresters. No matter if it is buying wood or doing some dirt work for someone, etc. I just try to give a fair price, where it enough to make it worth my while and the customer gets a job well done. I tend to give too good of prices, I usually wish I had made more on a job. If your conscience is bugging you maybe you didn't pay enough. If I had someone completely ignorant of their timber value and I offered them half of the going rate that they could get from someone else that would do a comparable job, I think my conscience would bug me. I always encourage people to shop around, I explain prices well up front, and if someone else can do it better/cheaper than me so be it. On the forester issue, I know there are good foresters and in general I think an uninformed landowner is money ahead hiring one. A friend that was running a CTL operation down in Georgia had some pretty negative experiences with private foresters down there, a good many of them were not looking out for the landowners interest, only the money in their pocket. The more wood cut, the more they made. There were many jobs were the forester would bring in the CTL equipment on the challenging wood and let a conventional crew cut the easy access wood because it was cheaper, but the conventional crews were skinning/damaging residuals that made them lose value in the next harvest. I think the commision/percentage based payment method causes a conflict of interest.

[SwampDonkey]

I've cut brush many times on woodlots and very few landowners even care to be there to see what's taking place. Some tell me "they never walked back there in 20 years", and don't seem to have a desire to.  They didn't walk near the place when it was being harvested by some logger neither. That's the attitude of many, I'm afraid gentlemen. I know of one forester who was so fed up with owner's attitudes towards managing their woods through silviculture and best management practices he pretty much gave up trying to sell it. In his experience they were just looking at the money. He worked at one of the boards and passed away in 2008. That's pretty much what I see to. That's why it's rare to see any foresters in this area making a go at it. Most become loggers and silviculture contractors dependent on government incentives to do the work. Otherwise, they do what they have to, to make a living. A few (darn few) spring up as environmental consultants like for these certification schemes and many are mainly engineering firms.

[Texas Ranger]

When timber was high I made a fair percentage of my income by assisting the DA and Sheriff in prosecuting timber thieves.  They were, totally, loggers.  Never prosecuted a teacher, banker, mill owner, barber, beautician, all loggers.   Was involved in one case concerning a forester.

Like it or not, timber thieves are loggers, not the other way around.  The only way a land owner is protected is by using a third party as a cushion between land owner and logger.

A case in point.  The father of a friend of mine married one of a pair of sisters who had inherited 350 acres of land, the other sister was married to a timber broker (timber pimp).  My friends father called me to ask the current price of timber, which at the time was about $45 per ton, stumpage.  I advised the guy that he needed a forester to work with them on the job, not necessarily me as a friend of mine had worked the land for years.  Mill gate at the time was around $67 per ton.

Months later I ran into the father and he said that they had sold the timber through his wifes brother in law for the amount I had told him, but, he said, we had to split half with the logger.  So the timber pimp and logger got some where around $45 a ton and the sisters split $22 a ton.  This was a good all weather site, flat, good soil.  All because they had no concept of stumpage and mill gate prices, as well as common logging practices.

All I could do was walk away.  Were sisters taken?  You bet.  By conmen loggers.

Say what you want, if you are a good honest logger, more power to you, but there are a bunch out there that are not, and as timber prices slide lower, it is harder to make that living without some sort of edge, and the third party is the only way a land owner can be assured of a fair deal.

[SwampDonkey]

We had one instance where it was a mill who conned a gentleman that was living like a hermit on an old farm. The mill was out of province, in Quebec. Even the loggers got took by the time they were done. We cruised stumps and sent the mill a bill for wood levy, that 2.2% I've talked about. It wasn't huge dollars, but the law is levy on private wood sales. If I recall, we got some but not all the levy. I think half. It wasn't mature wood, but second growth hardwood (maple,beech,yellow birch), which can grow thick. As far as the owner of the woodlot, I don't think he had any means to pursue them for anything and not much of an education. He had made an agreement, and that was that. The whole neighborhood up there was fuming mad over it. Lots of people, "don't want your help", when it comes to the woods business. Case in point. ;) We only got involved because a director lived in the community and wanted to pursue the levy money.

[red oaks lumber]

well after reading all the posts, i have one conclusion. the "foresters fraternity" should go on a public awareness campain to convince the landowner why he should hire them.

[ga jones]

I agree with phorester. Well stated.

[WDH]

It pays to know what you are doing.  If not, seek professional help, be it a lawyer, investment advisor, forester, etc. depending on what it is that you don't know what you are doing.  That is what smart people do. 

Many times people that are not smart think that they can save money by doing everything themselves.  Sometimes that does not pay like acting as your own lawyer or investing large amounts of money without knowledge of the markets. 

As to selling timber, there is a right way to do it.  If you do not understand or have the skills to do it the right way, seek professional help, or you may have a bad experience.  Many people do not understand what happens when you put big equipment in the woods and cut timber.  They are surprised when the logger cuts and hauls the good trees off the property (generally as fast as they can so as to be the most productive).  Sometimes the aftermath is not pretty.  In some cases, there is little regard for the trees that remain, and damage that takes decades to overcome is done. 

It is not all about price at all.  That is just the first part.  In fact, to me, that is the easy part.  The hardest part is making sure that the process is done in the most positive and productive way for all parties while preserving the integrity of the forest stand, the soils, the roads, the water, and the wildlife.

[craigc]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

[snowstorm]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

very well said

[WDH]

Craigc,

That is an interesting view.  However, I do not share it.  There is nothing new about people swindling or cheating other people.  It is done everyday in every type of business.  The Forest Industry is no different than any other.  

It is easier to cheat people with no knowledge or experience or who are not paying attention to what is going on.  Bernie Madoff, if he was a logger, would have been a cheat, a swindle, and a thief, but probably not quite as big of one as he was stealing people's money rather than their timber.

[northwoods1]

This discussion has reveled to me all that is wrong with the forest industry.  Everybody thinks they are better than the other person and they are needed to keep the other one honest.  Lack of proffessionalism is on display folks just come over to the Forest Products Industry.  It is why we were ran over by the enviromental groups no cohesion in are industry.  They did not have to divide and conqueer we have done it ourselves.

I find this thread very interesting everyone has good points I am always impressed with these forums here, and how balanced the views are topics get covered pretty thoroughly.

I don't think there is any lack of professionalism here I think it is the other way around! I really do. You need to listen to what all these people have said and think about it.

It is my observation that the point made about a landowner needing a forester to keep the loggers honest that is a good point. It is true that a good rule to live by in many situations is "trust but verify" there is nothing wrong with that because you would be guarding against something that is just human nature... not something particular to loggers like WDH has pointed out

It occurred to me though, that some of the best working relationships I have ever seen operated on the principal of total trust without the 2ble checking.

The statement that a 3rd party is the only way a landowner can get a fair deal... well that obviously is not true. It can & does happen every day all over the place. Just a fact. Also just a fact that landowners get ripped off, I know that too :D





I mean it isn't a big secret , the stereotypes that exist about the logging industry/loggers and most people have them for good reason. 

[bill m]

In my 25 or so years cutting timber I have not met one landowner whose goal was a long term income producing forest who could handle a timber sale himself. Most land owners do not have the knowledge to grow timber and most loggers do not either. I have people often asking me to cut their timber and I always tell them a forester will be marking the lot.