Landowner handling own timber contract vs hiring forester

[deb36]

Hi,

We have about 70 acres of northern hardwood forest that is overdue for harvest.  We live in Chippewa County Wisconsin.  We consulted a local forester, and he gave us some clues as to how it should be managed.  Said mainly to cut the largest trees that are shading the younger trees below.  I've heard that you do mini clear cuts around the large tree to allow new growth.  Then cut all the ash trees.  And leave the sugar maples.  The large basswoods, and large oaks would go.  Then leave the more 'medium' height trees so that we start creating a tiered forest.  That's my very limited take on forest management...but I can do research.  As far as the administrative work involved in setting up a timber sale, I've looked up some of that...and stumpage rates.   I'm learning how to measure total volume now.  A lot to learn I know.  And I don't expect to be an expert...just want to save money on hiring a forester if its a reasonable thing to do.  I don't want to screw up.  The goal is to have a healthy woods for future harvests and to make a fair market profit in the short run.  We're not in an extreme hurry...but have been told that the woods is losing value every day. 

Question is...is it a reasonable thing to do?  Anyone else do this?  What advice or resources can you point me to?  I've found the wisconsin DNR site to be good, as well as Michigans stumpage rates.  Just getting started really....

Thanks,

Deb

[Stephen1]

Welcome to the FF  pull up a  stump and chat a while. there are many experts who will drop in with there 2cents worth. Take your time :P a forest grows real slow. Hiring a forester for the initial managed plan will be the best money you will spend. I can see that now after owning our bush for 40 years. Not that we made any major mistakes, I just think we would have done better
Stephen

[beenthere]

Agreeing with Stephen1.
Also, have you talked with your DNR forester for the help that they can give?

Here is a link to the DNR info

http://dnr.wi.gov/forestry/publications/pdf/FR-021.pdf

[BaldBob]

Although the services of a good consulting forester may seem expensive to you, in most instances the net return (after paying for the forester's services) you get from a timber sale that a good consultant handles will almost always be more than you would likely get handling it yourself. Additionally, the forester can help you avoid numerous pitfalls that can occur when selling timber.
Don't just go with the first forester you find. Ask for references and a list of some recent sales that he/she handled that you can look at. Then talk to those landowners to understand what their objectives were - a job that you may not like the look of may be just what the landowner wanted. A good consulting forester will attempt to ascertain the landowner's objectives ( and spend enough time to be sure that the landowner understands the range of viable options suitable for their land) and then design the cut to best meet the option the landowner chooses. Avoid using a forester who tries to dictate to you what your objectives should be. It's your land and your objectives. That's not to say that the forester shouldn't try to educate you on the ramifications that you may not be aware of in choosing a certain set of objectives.

[ahlkey]

Have you considered putting some of your woodland into the MFL program?  It is good sustainable forestry program and depending on your location you could save a significant amount in taxes each year on 70 acres.  Most foresters in the area will be willing to walk your property with you and give you good advice for a small fee or even for free if you are entering the MFL program.  In either case well worth the time and money to get a professional forester involved.

[g_man]

I am a land owner like yourself so I have nothing to sell but my opinion so to say. If you are in it for the long term I would have a definite management plan firmly in mind before you had any cutting done. Starting to get educated like you are is one step towards that. First you need a well thought out set of personal objectives that match your desires and your woodlands capability. You can make your own plan or get the help of a forester. I would think that you would find a forester invaluable for this. But he has to be the right one for you. After you have a plan you will know the objectives for any cutting you do. When you do cut you will find that tree quality, products, local markets, and timing is a very complex thing. Weather you or a forester manage the cut is up to you but having a forester at least involved in some way would be prudent and IMO not a waste of money.
First get a forest plan. Don't plan a cut then decide you need a forest plan afterwards.

[gspren]

  About 15 years ago I also wanted/needed to sell some timber and my area of expertise is machine shop not forestry. I had 2 timber buyers from saw mills walk through and make offers before a GOOD neighbor recomended getting an independent forester. The forester walked through my woods and asked me as many questions as I asked him and the end result was more money with better safegards than if I would have handled it myself. Ask around and find a good independent Forester and protect yourself and your woods. JMHO

[Okrafarmer]

With the condition of your woods I would definitely recommend a forester. However, you are doing the right thing to educate yourself, too. Foresters are human like everyone else, there are some who will work very well with you, and some who will only see their own objectives. Educating yourself will help you be sure you found a good forester. Especially if you are planning to keep the land a long time, you need a plan. One that will groom your property for further rewards down the road. On the other hand, if you plan on selling your property, a plan, and a well-executed timber harvest, will help to maintain or enhance your property value compared to if you just let whomever offers you the highest price go in and thrash-cut your timber.

[drobertson]

I have seen woodlots handled both ways and have to agree with the proffesional forrestry approach.  There are many good loggers, ones that have been in the bussiness for over 20 years that have learned from time what the effects of proper cutting and poor cutting can result in.  It really does depend completely on the desired long term goals.
just my two cents worth, I have just started another cut on our 120 the first cut was in 1995. There has to be some spacing on these trees or they just don't grow as well.

[deb36]

Thanks guys!

You've given me a lot of good information.  I'll look into the MFL program.  It sounds great, except I'm not real fond of government interference.  As long as the rules aren't too strict, their plans don't interfere too much with ours, and they don't visit often I'm fine with it.

The county forester also came out and did a walkthrough for free.  He gave me some great tips.  We had an independent forester take a look, but I got a little worried that he works on comission.  And his contract was very vague.  No legal land description, no description of what his intent was.  Just a dollar estimate on the timber value.  I'm having a good time learning about all this. But I tend to agree...a forester sounds like my best choice as long as I find the right one.

I'll keep on keepin on with the research.

Thanks,

Deb

[beenthere]

Good to keep checking into what your options are for your forest.

The WI Woodland Owners Assoc may be a good contact for you.
http://www.wisconsinwoodlands.org/

Also, when you find a forester to work with, check on his past jobs for a look at what the jobs end up looking, as well as visit with the landowners or neighbors.

We had a neighbor bring in a logger under the watchful eye of a good forester, and while there the logger contacted a neighbor next to his land. Offerred the guy $10k to log their land and it was high-graded and left with good sticks laying everywhere. Logger was happy, and landowner happy. But the landowner lost about double what he was paid. But can't paint everyone involved with a wide brush.

As to the Managed Forest Land (MFL), it is becomming more and more under tight control of the Gov't. The program started (early 60's) out wooing in forest owners with the tax break and only two restrictions.... can't burn and can't graze. The idea was to get the cattle out of the woods to encourage good forests. As time went on, a written management plan was needed. Also, the legislative body became more and more interested in controlling the forest and what the landowner was going to do with it. Now, there is a requirement that a private forester must write a detailed management plan, at an est. minimum of $2k, just to stay in the MFL program. Also involved is the sustainable forest game plan such that all MFL land is declared to be included.
No end to those who want to tell us what to do with our forest. Soon it will be our health care by Gov't clerk, not the Dr. ;)

[grassfed]

Hi Deb, I just wanted to add a couple of concepts that may help to understand the basics of forest management.

The 1st is Ecological succession http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_succession   

The 2nd is Vigor. I use the term vigor to describe trees that are thriving in their location. Trees that are well adapted to where they are growing and are at a stage in their lives when they are growing quickly. Vigor is much more important than just size when determining the trees that you want to keep. Many times bigger trees in an area are also the most vigorous and are just out competing other trees these vigorous trees will increase in size and value at a faster rate so you may want to wait to harvest them. A classic mistake  in forest management is to  just cut the big trees and not the small trees; this can result in "high grading" and is not in the best long run interest environmentally or   economically.

[deb36]

Yeah, government has sticky fingers.  Seems like you need a permit for everything these days.  I suppose if they simplified things, somebody would be out a job. But a big hassle to deal with.  And you can't make choices without going through a gauntlet of paperwork and red tape. I swear they have a different division for every letter you get.  You have to call Madison because the county office won't answer the phone, then Madison tells you to call the county office.  You finally just press a number on the phone message at the county office...and get whoever answers.  Usually someone who doesn't know what you want.  Oh well.  Tax dollars at work.  Amazingly inefficient and 90% pointless. 

So for ecological succession, I was wondering why sugar maples would be left...I figured it was because of their lifespan (long) and thier shade tolerance.  Sounds like ash are shade intolerant.  I got that off the WI DNR website.  Will go back to that later and check on the other species. 

So when you clear an area around the downed big tree, and you clear cut around it....what is the progression.  Interesting stuff.  Can almost picture a time lapse photo of forest changes...just can't picture the species. 
As far as how vigorous...would the short lived trees come first, then get replaced by the more desirable hardwoods?  Or are the hardwoods the more vigorous? 
I guess I wonder how much interference is necessary to get what you want in your woods.  Or once you do the cutting, is it mostly taking care of itself?  I can see why you need a plan ahead.  Wouldn't pay to make big bald spots all over my woods only to have it fill in with stuff that isn't useful, or just a less profitable harvest and fewer of them. 

Thanks,

Deb

[Claybraker]

Thanks guys!
.  We had an independent forester take a look, but I got a little worried that he works on comission.  And his contract was very vague.  No legal land description, no description of what his intent was.  Just a dollar estimate on the timber value.  I'm having a good time learning about all this. But I tend to agree...a forester sounds like my best choice as long as I find the right one.

I'll keep on keepin on with the research.

Thanks,

Deb

You know the old saying about having to kiss a lot of frogs? Same thing sorta applies to hiring a forester. When I hired one, I talked to several before I found one that asked: what is it you want to do? The good ones will listen to you, and ask a lot of questions about your objectives.

[g_man]

Your forestry plan should describe the condition, spicies, age classes, and inventory of your woods today. It should also describe what products you want your woods to supply on a cyclical or on going basis. And finally it should describe what you want your woods to be in the future.
In general you do a series of cuts to provde the desired products and to move your woods from where they are now to what you want them to be.
As a part of every cut you need to have a regeneration plan. That regeneration plan should be consistant with your overall long term forestry plan goals which describe the species mix and age classes you want your woods to contain in the near term and long term future.
The type of regeneration you want will have a huge impact on how and when a cut is executed. There are many ways to perform a silvaculturally sound cut. It depends on what you have now and what you want later. But you have to think it through ahead of time. For a overly simple minded example: Why leave the big maples if you have absolutely no interest in having maples in the future. Cut them and start growing what you want.
If you don't know why you are clear cutting around the big maples, for example, and what species that will promote for regen then you are not in control of your forest investment and stand to loose in the long run. Being patient, taking time to learn, and getting a foresters help will pay you dividends unless your goal is quick cash which is often the real world case but is hard on the woods.

[snowstorm]

just in case this hasnt been brought up. the age of the landowner. i am not calling you old or even refering to you. but i have run into this before. you try to do the right thing. improve the stand. had a nice old guy 2 yrs ago that was in his late 80's. he said sonny cut everything we can make a dollar on. he passed away just before i finished the job. have another guy that isnt that old but his health is failing. he wants it cut hard so he gets to spend the cash and so his wife dosent get it after he is gone

[thecfarm]

What ever you do,do it wisely. A mistake will take YEARS to fix. Check out whoever you have. Check out past jobs and talk to the land owners too. It's your land,get it cut the way YOU want it.

[WDH]

In Northern Hardwoods, many landowners will only cut timber on their property once in their lifetime.  Their decisions impact the property for the next 60 to 100 years at least.  Make sure that you do your homework and not leave a mess for the next generation.  It is not just deciding when and what to cut, but also how the cutting is done (quality of the harvest). 

Many landowners make the mistake of taking what they perceive is the highest bid or price for the timber.  As a Forester that has been involved with and seen many, many harvests, the quality of the harvest and the end-condition of the forest is as important as how much money you will get for that vacation to Europe.  I have seen some really good harvests and also some real disasters. The number of loggers that I would let cut timber on my property is more of a select few professionals that do a great job.  Yes, I want a market price, but you never get something for nothing.  Go with proven, quality people, and don't just count the dollars. 

[Kansas]

Don't cut it. Market conditions are such I think unless you absolutely need the money now, just leave it stand. Unless market conditions are better there than here, by the time you pay out the money for someone to harvest it, either through a forester or yourself, you wont have much left. Unless there is storm damage, let the trees grow until the market gets itself better. Because if you have any walnut in there, they are close to worthless, right at this time. At least compared to past times. That does not mean do not do timberstand improvement, and maybe get some of the cull trees out. You may not get much out of them, but right now most trees are just going for pallet grade log price. I could be wrong; markets may be different there. I kind of doubt it though.

[Weekend_Sawyer]

Good advice all,

We recently had a heavy thinning done. Our property in the eastern panhandle of WV had been logged back in 57', we didn't own the timber rights then and the guy who did took everything he could make a dollar on. No management had been in place until recently when we started working with a forester. He worked up a management plan according to our needs, which were wildlife and timber management, put us in contact with a 2 loggers and let us tag along when he was marking trees for harvest. This was important because there are some trees that have history and we wanted to preserve them. We enjoyed the experience, have a forest that is much more desirable to wildlife and put a little green in our pockets.

I can't say enough good things about the positive experience and ongoing relationship we have developed with our forester.

[Okrafarmer]

An ideal thing will be if you can find the right forester, who is acting only as a consultant. You pay him/her to actually assess your situation and draw you up a plan, and possibly manage the harvest, but does not receive an actual percentage of the harvest. That way you know that they are not trying to high-grade your property, leaving you with only the junk trees left. However, it is not always possible to find a forester operating as a consultant only, so that may not be an option. The most important factor, as others have said, is their reputation among their past clients. Find someone with 100% or nearly 100% satisfaction from their previous customers, especially any from multiple years back who are happy with how their land is today.

[MJD]

This has all been great info but there is always that chance a storm/tornado comes through and destroys the whole stand as many saw in northern Wi. last year, storm damaged wood is not worth much. I logged a few a few woods for a mills / forester that were on a 2nd cutting in 20 years and the land owners were very happy with how there woods were managed and it did not cost the land owner anything.

[deb36]

Thanks again,

Since someone brought up age, my parents own the land Dads 96 and ma's 76.  Dad's the one calling the shots.  I'm trying to help with it, but we don't really agree on the forester.  Money is the reason for looking into it.  I think what he believes is that the forest will take care of itself after we cut. He's just not into complicated plans.  He keeps it simple.  Gotta respect that. Wish we could get some of that back these days. 

He logged in the 80's and things were a lot simpler back then.  Can't blame him for wanting to do it the same way, although I know things are more complicated these days.  He got the county forester out to mark trees, had a lawyer draw up a contract, then put out sealed bids himself.

Now one forester wants 12% of the sale, another a hefty down payment before they'll come out and look.  Once he saw the 12% on the contract he was set against it.  Says considering his property taxes over the years, he'd break even on the sale if he gave $2000 to a forester.  I guess I can see that.  I kind of like how simple it was then myself. I'll support whatever decision he makes. 

Any advice you'd give a 96 year old that might seem practical?  Sorry I didn't say so sooner.  Thought it was TMI or that it wasn't necessary.

Deb

[Okrafarmer]

That's ok, Deb. BTW, you are very blessed to still have your dad around at that age. I hope mine lives that long and is still able to be involved in decision making! 

Your dad is right to a certain extent, the land will heal itself. Now, there are ways that foresters and loggers can improve the process, to be sure, and cause the land to be much more profitable than if it merely heals itself without interference. But considering his age and perspective, there's probably no sense trying to pick through the fine details with him. There will come a time in the future when he is no longer able to make decisions, and someone else will have to decide what's to be done with the land. Even after your prime hardwoods are logged off, a forester can be brought in some time in the future to build a plan, moving forward from that time onward. You lose some efficiency in the process, and some effect on the timber value and so on, but it will still be worth doing even years after the current timber harvest.

[Ianab]

Another thing to consider is the marketing ability of the forester.

If you end up sending all the harvest to one mill, it's likely that a lot of the logs wont be of species or grades that the mill really wants. This means they wont be paying what the logs are potentially worth to another mill. They may even sort some out, and on sell them to another mill (for a profit)

With some smart marketing and sorting of the logs you might sell them for 20-50% more over the whole harvest? This is the sort of thing a consutant can help with. They know the local mills, what they are paying for the various logs, and where to send them for the best return.

In that case you take off the 12% the forester makes, and you are still ahead on the deal. Maybe by a significant amount.

Ian

[MJD]

Deb, if you would like I can give you a name of a guy that works for a mill in central WI., ive known him for years, have cut timber for him and also sold logs to him, he is honest, fair and old school. He does have a degree in forestry and im sure your dad would like him. PM me if your intrested in his name. Mike

[snowstorm]

Thanks again,

Since someone brought up age, my parents own the land Dads 96 and ma's 76.  Dad's the one calling the shots.  I'm trying to help with it, but we don't really agree on the forester.  Money is the reason for looking into it.  I think what he believes is that the forest will take care of itself after we cut. He's just not into complicated plans.  He keeps it simple.  Gotta respect that. Wish we could get some of that back these days. 

He logged in the 80's and things were a lot simpler back then.  Can't blame him for wanting to do it the same way, although I know things are more complicated these days.  He got the county forester out to mark trees, had a lawyer draw up a contract, then put out sealed bids himself.

Now one forester wants 12% of the sale, another a hefty down payment before they'll come out and look.  Once he saw the 12% on the contract he was set against it.  Says considering his property taxes over the years, he'd break even on the sale if he gave $2000 to a forester.  I guess I can see that.  I kind of like how simple it was then myself. I'll support whatever decision he makes. 

Any advice you'd give a 96 year old that might seem practical?  Sorry I didn't say so sooner.  Thought it was TMI or that it wasn't necessary.

Deb

find someone that you know and trust and have them cut it. cut to length equipment  would be a big plus. it can do a really nice looking job. everyone says you must hire a forester. he will make you money. dosent always work that way. its your land  your the boss. do what you think is right.

[beenthere]

Dad's the one calling the shots.

Work with Dad, best you can.  Get him to think what you want to happen are his ideas. Once he gets his heels dug in, then changing his mind may be tough. Stalling for time, like the markets are bad, may be the best in the long run.
Good luck.

[ahlkey]

Your situation sounds quite interesting and similar to one underway in our family at the moment.  Possibly this could be of some help to you. 

We have a family homestead property of 60 acres that was approved for entry into the MFL plan starting January 2013.  It does require a harvest within 2 years of entry as nothing but firewood has been harvested for over 70 years (high density).  My father-inlaw who lives on the old homestead is 88 years old and still active cutting trees.  He is definitely old-school and even though entry under the MFL plan was confusing to him the tax-savings alone results in over $2,000 per year (he gets that big time).  We assured him that we would do the cutting and the forester doing the marking would be independent.  I have found anyone working directly for a mill or only willing to do the harvest based commission is a conflict of interest.  I do have other properties in the state under MFL plans and active with those properties (good equipment & expereince) so it works for us to do it ourselves.  However, getting the right forester who can help market the logs will more than pay off for you.   

At this point each of the families have an immediate need for income so waiting isn't an option.  Second, the tax savings each year is immediate and significant for everyone involved, and finally the future of sustainable forestry for three familes is achieved under the MFL. 

And besides just leaving large firewood logs to grow larger wasn't increasing the value of the forest potential. To put it mildly getting sustainable forestry on the old homestead wasn't easy but it was good that we did so.

Good luck to you. 

[westyswoods]

Interesting topic with a variety of answers. Went through a similar situation last spring. I had a reputable buyer and forester come in. We walked the woods and he was helpful in answering questions about selectively cutting. In short he said that with the market being in a very down mode, he would not cut any prime trees, instead thin the junk so the better can get bigger and are of more value when the market turns. Good answer and appreciated.

I had already taken down several thousand feet of a variety of hardwoods and had them cut to length, staged on the landing. He measured all and gave a quote which I did not accept.

Now the interesting part, I also measured all the landing logs using same scale. Low and behold the lesser value logs were all of comparable board foot to my measurements. The white oak and others of more value were substantially under measured. This is not a figment of my imagination I double and
triple checked.

I ended up selling to the Amish for $500 more than buyers quote. I have had very good relations over the years dealing with Amish, but there is one thing I know is they don't lose money.

Just a personal story.

Stay Safe and Be Well
Westy

[deb36]

You guys have helped a lot.  Its actually a very complicated situation.  6 siblings, all with different ideas and a 96 year old who wants to do it 'my way'.  He didn't live this long for no reason...he's stubborn as a mule:-) You know, he's as old as the larger trees in our woods.  He has logged at least twice.  But we do have two separate sections of woods.  Back in the 30's I think, his uncle burned down the woods by accident, and all the maples died, but the basswood came back.  So he and a few other guys cut cord wood that they sold locally.   

I'll just present things to him when it seems like a good time, and see what he says.  I'm hoping we can delay a sale so I can get organized.  If we could get a forester just to give us a plan and mark the trees, it may work.  I just have to find someone in the area.  I'll ask the county forester if he knows of anyone that might do that.  And maybe I'll just do some calling around to foresters and see what I can come up with.  Then maybe get the local logger that my Dad likes, and check into mills. Thanks for giving me an idea of how the process goes.  There's a lot to it. 

As far as the MFL program, we're checking that also. Good that we can balance the financial part and the forest management part of it without hopefully too much conflict. 

I'm sure I'll be coming back to this post a lot to figure out a plan. I'll let you know if we go ahead with it and what happens. 

Deb

[Okrafarmer]

We are collectively glad to help, Deb, and I hope it goes well for you. Don't be a stranger on here! We're a fun bunch to hang around with, and there is a LOT we can all learn from each other.  ;)

[WDH]

If you use good, reputable, experienced people, you will be fine.  Just be real clear on what your management objectives are.

[drobertson]

Hope the best for your family, it is always a hard thing when multiple inputs are coming in. One might want to leave everything, another with other ideas.  I just know that we had a good guy do ours in 95'. I remember his words,"it will be ready in 15 years for another thinning"  and it is.   His crew made nice roads,  with mimimal damage.   One thing for sure, depending on who does it the potential for waste is present. Just remember to try and market the whole tree if possible. 

[terry f]

   Deb, is this land going to be passed to the six siblings, sounds like its been in the family a while. If it is you might want to get some input from them. Sounds like you're doing alot of the leg work for your dad, and I wouldn't want argue with a 96 year old, but sometimes old school, aint the best school. Doing whats best for the land, might not put the most money in his pocket.

[Ron Scott]

You have received good information here. Seek out the services of a professional forester that comes with the best recommedations from others to serve your family's best interests in your woodland management. The forester's professional judgement will be most helpful.