Why ctl?

[240b]

I find it interesting how things are done in different parts of the country. I was wondering why ctl is so prevalent in the lake states? Does it have to do with the large number of northern european immigrants who settled in the area?

[saltydog]

theres not many good pro hand cutters anymore. and very few who can put out the volume of a good machine.50 to 100 cords is asking alot from one man and a saw.and insurance such as comp kills your bottom dollar.the lake states produces alot of wood. alot of guys make it on volume.low pay means cutting alot of wood to make ends meet.have you ever seen how much a ponsse or timberjack can put out in one day (in good wood). its unreal.but ill stick to my saw. it wont get repoed when markets change.

[beenthere]

I find it interesting how things are done in different parts of the country. I was wondering why ctl is so prevalent in the lake states? Does it have to do with the large number of northern european immigrants who settled in the area?

Cut to length is prolly due to the infrastructure in place..rail cars, pulp/flake mills, size of wood, species of wood, traditional markets, etc.
And just to make it interesting....

We can't blame the Europeans for everything.  ;D ;D

[Bobus2003]

Worker Safety and Speed.. Lot safer in a Cab, than on foot with a saw, and a CTL machine can do more faster & Accuratly than a Man on the ground.. Plus it is less Distrurbing to the Ecosystem than the Fell and Skid Methods.

[SwampDonkey]

Might be that the industry and government pushed it like they did here. On public land in NB, there isn't any manual felling unless your native out there poaching veneer and firewood.

[chucker]

 ???  machines are great ! but what the machanized world has done is to kill the great american woodsman/laborer!! people out of work and losing their homes to mention just a couple of reasons for more manual labor!! once employed 5 workers and now down to myself an one helper on call?? so do machines make for a better way yes! and mostly " hell no " !!!!!!!!!!!  i will stick with my trusty saws anold out dated equipment, its mine and always will be ...

[Autocar]

I agree with Chucker machines are nice but falling big timber with a chainsaw is a rush ! I don't think theres a machine made that will cut the size timber I cut around here. What will put me out of bussiness is age it gets harder every year to produce what I fell is needed in a day.

[Clark]

As salty said, it's a volume related thing.  There is very little veneer or saw log material growing in the lake states (MI's upper peninsula being the notable exception).  Cutting volume is the only way to really make money.  Then there are the insurance, health and liability reasons to get the men away from the saws.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

It's a volume thing, but it's also a price thing. On woodlots, most fellas can't justify that expensive equipment. Why would I cut several woodlots to the last stick so someone can sell me those machines? I don't see a net benefit on my end.

[Gary_C]

There are many reasons for cut to length in the Lake states. First would be a major push for safety in the woods and reducing the very high cost of work comp for woods workers. The MN Dept of Labor and Industry has various grant programs to encourage getting every worker in the woods off the ground and into the cab of a machine just for safety reasons. In most areas of the state it has been effective with the exception of the steep hills and valleys in the hardwood country of the Mississippi River in SE MN.

Another big reason(s) is the best management practices and sustainable forestry. There are many thinning jobs now that do not allow any whole tree skidding. And the public has kind of had it's fill of those clearcuts even when it is necessary for regeneration. So there are a lot more thinning jobs now. Plus these CTL jobs do not need a great big landing area cut out of the woods.

And with all the production capacity of the pulp, paper, and board mills in the area, their needs could not be met with hand cutting.

And some say another reason has been the buying of the old Consolidated Paper by Stora Enso brought in more demands for rubber tire european style machines.

So there are many reasons for CTL popularity in the Lake States. And apparently other places too as I know that Ponsse is working overtime and seven days a week in its factory in Finland to keep up with the demand for new machines.

[Splinter]

$30/hr for workmens comp for fellers in NH.
There are 1 man shows and full mechanized crews.
Gov't killed everything in between.

[SwampDonkey]

Comp here is based on gross wages, wages that you forecast ahead of actually being earned. Reconciled in the new year.

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! to what Gary_ C  and some have said. Most of my timber sales are required cut to length harvests due to them being selective thinnings and there is less environmental and aesthetic impact on the harvest area with ctl harvests.

CTL is also often done with chain saw operators as well the highly mechanized machines.

[Rick Alger]

Ron,
Have you got any idea of  the average value per ton of CTL-harvested wood compared to the av
erage value per ton of tree-length? In other words, over the length of the job, do you tend to harvest a higher ratio of good quality wood?

[SwampDonkey]

Manual CTL only works economically if the value is there. I've seen a lot of machine harvested wood on crown land and it's mostly tree length unless they are thinning hardwood stands. And those hardwood stands may have big wood, but a large percentage is pulpwood. No comparison to stands of nice hardwood in PA. They are paid on production not on tree value. So it's a little tough to make it work dollar wise. The rates are rock bottom. ;)

[Rick Alger]

Yeah, that's what you see around here in northern NH.

[Ron Scott]

All our higher value and grade hardwood sawlog harvests are CTL only.

[chevytaHOE5674]

UP here there are operators with CTL machines but when it comes to the higher grade sawlogs and veneer they switch to hand felling and bucking.

And there are still plenty of guys running feller bunchers, hand topping and delimbing, skidding tree length with a grapple skidder and then bucking/sorting/piling with a slasher on the landing.