Note to employees don,t mess with the sawyer

[Jay C. White Cloud]

I would make this observation, on Hamish's defense, we can complain about the work ethic and lack of drive of many youth today, but I also see a quality that many older folks are way to "close channeled" to new and old ideas, they want to do it the way they do it and no other.

I wasn't there when Al_Smith encountered the young woman, so she could have been a "smart azz," or she might have actually had something to contribute and got shut down by the normative culture of the older work force, I don't know.  So Al_Smith might have been justified in redirecting her to try watching and learning more before she shared her observations/criticisms, and I think Hamish, it was probably the latter of the two, because Al_Smith, just ignored her, and that is the sign of a good mentor.  In the field of leadership development and team building it' actually has a name and purpose; it's called "planned ignoring," and it gives the less experienced a way to learn without loosing "face,"  In other words, you didn't have to tell her to "shut her mouth and listen," which is sometimes needed, instead he just ignored her and taught her a different way than she was familiar with.

I will take this moment to point out to many of the older readers, that I do see a quality in folks 35 and younger that did not exist in previous generations.  There are a lot of "old souls," beating around in these young people,  my current apprentice is one.  It could be the internet, it just could be the "global view," that many of them have, but they are coming to me with experience in both mind and body, well beyond there years of life.  So, when they stop to ask me a question or share and observation, 90% of the time I stop and follow their lead till I understand them completely.  I have learned as much as I have taught in the last twenty years from these very talented and gifted young people.

Regards, 

jay

[Al_Smith]

Let me rephrase things to bring them into perspective since I'm such a meanie .

Would it be wise for a navy seaman recruit right out of boot camp to demand anything from a master chief  boatswains mate with 7 gold hash marks ?

Would it be a mark of intellegence for a Marine Corps PFC try and tell a Gunnery Sgt how to do anything ?

Would it be a carreer step for a brand new intern directly out of medical school  trying to tell a senior MD how to diagnose a medical condition ?

Last but not least due to the fact there are a lot of loggers on this site .Just how would a brand new green horn get treated if he even suggested let alone insisted on  how to drop a big tree to a 45 year old  woodsman whose been at it since he was 17 years of age ? Not to danged well I'd bet.

I was nice about it because I could have been a real Attila the Hun if I had wanted to be .Not everyone handles things exactly like somebody else .I prefer my method rather than being an ogre about it .

[tyb525]

I would make this observation, on Hamish's defense, we can complain about the work ethic and lack of drive of many youth today, but I also see a quality that many older folks are way to "close channeled" to new and old ideas, they want to do it the way they do it and no other.

I wasn't there when Al_Smith encountered the young woman, so she could have been a "smart azz," or she might have actually had something to contribute and got shut down by the normative culture of the older work force, I don't know.  So Al_Smith might have been justified in redirecting her to try watching and learning more before she shared her observations/criticisms, and I think Hamish, it was probably the latter of the two, because Al_Smith, just ignored her, and that is the sign of a good mentor.  In the field of leadership development and team building it' actually has a name and purpose; it's called "planned ignoring," and it gives the less experienced a way to learn without loosing "face,"  In other words, you didn't have to tell her to "shut her mouth and listen," which is sometimes needed, instead he just ignored her and taught her a different way than she was familiar with.

I will take this moment to point out to many of the older readers, that I do see a quality in folks 35 and younger that did not exist in previous generations.  There are a lot of "old souls," beating around in these young people,  my current apprentice is one.  It could be the internet, it just could be the "global view," that many of them have, but they are coming to me with experience in both mind and body, well beyond there years of life.  So, when they stop to ask me a question or share and observation, 90% of the time I stop and follow their lead till I understand them completely.  I have learned as much as I have taught in the last twenty years from these very talented and gifted young people.

Regards, 

jay

I agree with you Jay, there have beens times I taught my boss a new idea that worked better than what he was doing. Of course most of the time he taught me.

[Cedarman]

Al, let me see if I can sum up what you are saying.
Before a young pup starts to tell the boss how to run things, they should learn the procedures  and way of  doing things that are in place.  Once they have paid their dues, then  it is time to speak up.
A person without any work history needs to concentrate on getting some history.

[Al_Smith]

It's not what is said but rather how it's said .Perception to the reciever of same is in fact reality .Suggesting is one thing entirely different than demanding .

[Jay C. White Cloud]

AL_Smith,

I would have you consider the following, if I may:

Would it be wise for a navy seaman recruit right out of boot camp to demand anything from a master chief  boatswains mate with 7 gold hash marks ?

My buddy did and saved a crewman's life and got promoted for his brave effort.

Would it be a mark of intellegence for a Marine Corps PFC try and tell a Gunnery Sgt how to do anything ?

I did, at 23, and changed the way documents and materials got shipped to Cuba.  My "Top," became one of my best friends because, as he put it, "I had the stones to confront him and still be respectful."

Would it be a carreer step for a brand new intern directly out of medical school  trying to tell a senior MD how to diagnose a medical condition ?

Absolutely, and my neighbors daughter did just that in an E.R. and saved a little girls life that was anaphylactic to the med the lead Doc had insisted on using.

Last but not least due to the fact there are a lot of loggers on this site .Just how would a brand new green horn get treated if he even suggested let alone insisted on  how to drop a big tree to a 45 year old  woodsman whose been at it since he was 17 years of age ?

Now your close to my day to day "baileywick," and yes I have seen a young German arborist, about 26 years old I would say, come to a workshop and pretty much rule the show.  He could and does drop trees better than most men with 30 years experience.  Why, because he was also, raised in the woods, had apprentice under more than one mentor, and had a natural gift that he enjoyed passing on.

In closing, yes often "they," need to listen and watch, but just as often, so do we...

[Al_Smith]

Yes to your point Cedar Man .Everybody pays their dues in one form or another .Respect is earned not an entitlement .

[hamish]

Let me rephrase things to bring them into perspective since I'm such a meanie .

Would it be a carreer step for a brand new intern directly out of medical school  trying to tell a senior MD how to diagnose a medical condition ?

Last but not least due to the fact there are a lot of loggers on this site .Just how would a brand new green horn get treated if he even suggested let alone insisted on  how to drop a big tree to a 45 year old  woodsman whose been at it since he was 17 years of age ? Not to danged well I'd bet.

Not everyone handles things exactly like somebody else .I prefer my method rather than being an ogre about it .

Your not a meanie at all, Al, you just you and have your views for with they are respectible.

One of the joys of the internet in the individual interpretation of anothers typing and trying to establish the context of it all.

Training of the military has changed and evolved with time, and is a distinct work environment, that is uncompareable to the civilian workplace. 
Within my own countries military much has change in the last 20 years.

I myself would hope a new doctor would try to tell senior one how to diagnose a condition.  Many conditions/treatments didn't even exist when the senior doctor graduated.

[beenthere]

Al
We "do" understand you.  ;D

All I'm gonna say 'bout it.

[Al_Smith]

Jay my point was and  is it's not what's said but how it's said .

I'm not permitted to go into the actual details but on my suggestion as was asked of my opinion of the situation at hand they  moved a multi million dollar nuke fast attack sub to alter course by several hundred miles .No way could I or would I ever "demand " a senior navy ships commanding officer  to do anything he didn't want to do  .I was some dumb but certainly not that dumb .Lawdy that would be like tugging on Supermans cape . Pity the fool that goes there .

Suggestion are cool .A lot can be learned if they are presented correctly but a junior or in the case of a trainee cannot demand .

[barbender]

I've always figured I'd do what I was told by the person I'm working under (as long as it's safe and moral ). I've worked with some difficult people and was able to get along and get the job done. If I see what I think is a better way to do something, I'll suggest it and if the suggestion is taken, great, if not I'll do it their way- no big deal. People I've worked with I think fall into 3 categories- 1. Ambitious with a humble attitude and eager to learn. 2. Ambitious but with a know it all attitude. 3. People that have to be directed at everything because they are either lazy or don't have their minds on their work. In my old line of work (asphalt driveway paving and preparatioon) I was put in charge of final prep of grading and asphalt finishing because I'm detail oriented and make sure everything is taken care of. Unless I was given a #1 type employee to work with, especially when doing grading
work, I'd just as soon work by myself. I wouldn't argue with #2 about how to do things, and babysitting #3s

[barbender]

Babysitting #3s trying to keep them busy just slowed me down. (I had to finish my previous post here, my smartphone window doesn't allow me to get too long winded)

[Magicman]

Back when I worked for "the man", the new hires were always assigned to me for training, and I trained many.  I was as willing to train as the new hires were to receive training.  Pay attention, and you had my full attention.  Respect me, and you had my respect.   I never asked anyone to do anything that I had not done or could not do.  We always worked hard and earned our pay, and we had fun doing it.

[Al_Smith]

Oh sometimes you just have to put people where they can do you the most good .

Long time ago ,10 men or workers to a crew ,one foreman per crew .One general foreman  per 5 crews which was me most of the time .I tried to find somone with some smarts and leadership ability to be the foremen with at least two or three real good journeyman per crew .Doesn't sound like much but with just that ratio you can get a lot done .If you were lucky enough during boom times to get a higher ratio of experianced good workers it went even smoother .

[bandmiller2]

Being an effective "boss" is not an easy job.You can be a hard man if your a fair man and lead from the front.There are different ways to inspire and get the best from an employee.Sounds corny but the lad has to believe hes the tail end forman with a crew of one. Frank C.

[Peter Drouin]

lots of times if the employee would just do what there told to do it would be easier on all,I use to have over 30   

[hamish]

And now back to Milling!