Dry crankshaft journals

[woodbowl]

I have an Isuzu Rodeo that has been sitting since last year. The reason it's parked is because the oil pump has supposedly went out. The previous owner said he only drove it a short distance when he noticed the idiot light comming on.  :  :

Anyway, I connected an oil pressure gage at the oil sensor unit, cranked it, and it registers ZERO! I immediately shut it off. I've concluded that it probably needs an oil pump.  ;D 

After the short dry run and sitting for a year, what I am concerned about is the amount of residual oil on the bearing points. If in fact it is dry or low in oil film, the initial crank may could score the bearing points.

I've got an idea to fill a hose with trans fluid and send it with air at the oil sensor unit port, to hopefully prelube all the bearing points.

Good idea or not?  What would you do?   Thanks

[Fla._Deadheader]

Over fill it with cheap oil, even used oil. Let it sit and the extra oil will MAYBE seep into the bearings. After a few days, crank without starting. Drain, THEN install the pump.

[scsmith42]

Olen, your concept is sound, but I would use a very high quality engine oil instead of transmission fluid.  In general, engine oil is a better lubricant than tranny fluid.  Basically, you're creating what  we used to use to pre-lube racing engines so that they didn't start up dry. 

Another option is to see if you can access the drive shaft for the oil pump, and use an electric drill to spin the factory pump to see if that would generate pressure.

Before you did anything though, I would take the oil filter off and cut it apart, to see if there are any metal fragments inside it.  If the original oil pump is bad, it could have spewed fragments througout the oil system.  If so, you will want to backflush the system before starting the engine.

If you have to pull the pan to put a new pump on, pull a few bearing caps to see if there's any wear from the previous owner running it w/o pressure.

Good luck,

Scott

[SPIKER]

it will probably need to have oil fed into like you wanted using the pressure sending port may only flow a bit.  problem is if there is not enough pressure to get to bearings.   much of it will be lost in the pump leakage and the upper valve train.   why doi you want to start it? to move it for repair?   anyhow it may be OK for a short life span but long term probably will not last really well.   nest off to pull & replace pump and change oil inspect bearings to see if he ran it 2 miles or 20....   a few miles is usually enough to wipe out the bearings on most cars...   if you have to pull pan might as well check the bearings while pan is off if they are galled up then might as well replace/rebuild it or sell it.

just my 2 cents worth...

markM

[woodbowl]

The pump is on the outside, behind the timming pully, but I do have to pull the pan to access bolts that go through the block.

DH, if I had enough oil and time, I could over fill it and let it sit. It's bound to get in there sooner or later.

Scott, I figured trans fluid was better than nothin at least for a few seconds. I even thought about when taking the caps off to inspect, and if they were OK, put a little STP on the bearings. It's that first crank that I'm worried about. Got to cut the filter open for sure to see whats going on.

it will probably need to have oil fed into like you wanted using the pressure sending port may only flow a bit.

Spiker, I'm kinda worried about too much air pressure and possibly blowing a seal somewhere else. I guess an oil pump is safe at 40 psi.   ???

Thanks for all the advise ... keep it comming.

I just walked in from messing with my GMC pick up. My work truck is broke down now.   :-[  Every vehicle we have has quit in the past week. ........ It happens every Christmas for some reason.   :

The GMC truck has spark at the coil and plugs. A squirt of gas in the carb makes no difference. It won't even sputter. I did notice a few extra turn overs in order for it to crank yesterday morning. That was unusual, because it has always cranked easy.

The GMC has now bumped up to the priority, I'm in a fix if I don't get to work in the morning. When it rains around here it seems to come by the bucketfulls.

Got any sugestions on this new problem?  :-\ 

[scsmith42]

Olen - how many miles on the GMC?  I'm wondering about the timing chain...  If you've got strong spark and fuel, timing would be the next thing to check (any chance that your distributor was moved?

Back to your other truck, if it were me, I'd take a section of pipe - say 2", about 16" long, put a reducer on one end (down to say 1/8" or so) and plumb it into a length of high pressure hose.  An old flexible hose from a grease gun - cleaned out - would be fine.  On the other end of the pipe screw another reducer, this time taking it down to 1/4" pipe.  Place a nipple for an air hose into the 1/4" reducer.

(Note, you could also do this out of PVC - in that case I'd bump it up to 4" pipe so you could put 2 - 3 quarts of oil into it.  You'd probably need a t fitting in it - one end with a cap that you could screw in and out, another end with the air fitting, and the third end for the pipe with the reducer at the end for the grease gun hose.)

Remove the oil pressure sender and screw one end of the grease gun hose into the block, and screw the other end into the 1/8" reducer on your pipe.

Obviously, thoroughly clean the inside of all of the pipe, reducers, fittings, etc with solvent.

Fill the pipe full of good oil - probably take a quart or so.  Screw on the reducer with the air fitting.  At your air compressor, screw your pressure regulator down to 40 - 50 lbs, and then hook an air hose up to the air fitting on the pipe.  Run a full quart through the system.  I would recommend slowy turning the engine over while you're pre-lubing it, because the rod bearings typically only get oil flow during 1/2 of the cranks rotation for that rod journal.  By slowly turning the engine over while your pressure-lubricatiing it, you'll get oil to all of the bearings.  Personally, I'd run about 3 -4 quarts of oil through the thing this way to make sure that everything was lubed. 

It would probably be a good idea to plumb a ball valve into the outfeed hose so that you could stop or control the flow of pressurized oil.

Good luck!  Scott

[woodbowl]

OK, it looks like I'm out of the woods now.  8)   Whew! I replaced the coil, but that wasn't it.  A friend of mine came over and did a little trouble shooting on my 96 GMC. I'm thinking the worst, like a jumped  timing chain. He found the problem in nothing flat. Of all things, it was the distributor cap.  :  It looked fine to me. It just shows there's no substitute for experence.

Thanks for the input. I guess we can get back to work on the Rodeo now.  ;D

[PineNut]

Several years ago I had a 1968 chey. When started, the engine would come up to speed and then start to misfire. Also the oil pressure would go to zero. Just before the engine would totally die, it would catch up, the oil pressure would come up and as the speed would pick up, it would repeat the same problem. Turned out the problem was a hold down clamp on the distributor. Finding mine wasn't experience, it was luck.

[sjh]

When you check the bearing you can use a product called ultra slick to lube them. It is made by Permatex. It is used as a assembly lube.

[Gary_C]

I had a cummins engine (4BT3.9C) in a forwarder that had the oil pump stop suddenly when a bolt worked loose inside the front cover and fell on the oil pump gear. It only ran for seconds, less than a minute, after the oil pump stopped, but it was junk. Number four rod was already blue and the cost to repair was more than the engine is worth. It's still sitting down in the shed.

Chances are your Rodeo is in severe distress. Lack of oil in a rod or main bearing even for seconds is very bad.

[woodbowl]

Chances are your Rodeo is in severe distress. Lack of oil in a rod or main bearing even for seconds is very bad.

Ooooooh ....... I feel a sharp pain right down there in my billfold.  :-\ 

What's the chance that even though the oil pressure gage didn't show pressure, that there may have been some low pressure oil flowing anyway? I have no reason to believe that the gage is faulty.

[Fla._Deadheader]

If the bearings are original, you might consider slipping .001 or .002 undersize bearings in unless the crank is scored. I know of that working a LOT of times, and it doesn'y cost a bunch, other than wrenchin and parts.

  OK guys, I'm waitin.  smiley_argue01 smiley_argue01

[SPIKER]

the gas engines are a bit more forgiving but no oil pressure usually is no life left. :(   it COULD be faulty idiot light/sensor, but probably will be some sort of damage.   in many cases it will run a little wile heat up and stop , cool down run some more but after a few times it will seize up...  toss out a rod or spit a piston out the block...   My old ford cop car has been working with very low pressure for a while, but I'm sure the bearings are not all that healthy, as they wear away the gaps get bigger and more oil flow is lost to the added clearance.   soon she goes boom...

just the nature of the beaste... ;)

mark M

[Gary_C]

Yes, gas engines are more forgiving, but the only way to find out for sure without risking total failure, is to open up the engine and check for scoring on the journals and to do a through job, the cam must come out too. That probably means you are committed to a overhaul because of the labor and the costs of gaskets.

I am just saying your chances of an easy, cheap fix are extremely low.   :(

FDH  What are you waitin for?   ;D

There are many other tricks that have been used, but they never seem to pay when you use them on yourself.   :D

[Fla._Deadheader]

First car engine I ever worked on, was a '51 Studebutcher. had the ole flat 6 banger in it. EVERY ring was broke cept one, and every land was broke cept one.

  Did a $10.00 overhaul. Bought Gaskets, bearings and rings. Traded a guy for used Pistons-rods AND bearings. Honed the cylables, stretched the pistons and dropped in the rings with .001 mains and .002 rod bearings. Thing ran like a scalded turtle, for ever and ever.  :D :D :D :D