BF versus Time

[TexasTimbers]

Had a customer call me yesterday and it went like this:

"I need some cedar boards 3/8" thick and you can leave two edges on them. They can be around 8 foot long give or take."

So he wants cheap right? I ask what he is using them for. He's a big horsey dude and that's all he does. All things horses. He finished his tack room by putting up black felt paper and putting the thin flitches over that to where the paper is visible through where the rough live edges don't touch and his horsey buddies all gotta have one now and since he is such a great guy he is obliging by going into the tack room remodleing biz.  :  The sawyer he used is the drunk down the road who is cheap but wholly unreliable.

So I say yes I can do it and I say but why 3/8 thick I think that is too thin don't you. He says well I would like them thicker but I was trying to save you the wood. So I says I think you are trying to save you the money right? He laughs and says yes.
So I say it wil be no more expensive to cut it 1/2" it's the labor and time not the wood. The 1/8" difference is negligble. So I tell him we need a staring point and that a board that averages 6" x 1/2" x 8' will be 2 BF x 1.25 = $2.50 per slice. He says great he wants around 130 of them when can he pick them up.

Just so happens I had been cutting some 1/2" thick stuff for one of the country clubs (we have 2 in our podunk county now!) bathrooms and had already picked out some of my lesser logs and adding his to the mix was easy money.

I don't feel like I got hurt on the deal because I didn't have to square it up and be particluar about the exact thickness. I just knocked the top slab and one flitch off and started taking slices by eyeballing since I did not have a 1/2" scale. The only waste was two small slabs and two mostly sap flitches which I sell $60 a bundle for the slabs.

All that to ask this. When you put all that much more time into a log versus selling 4x4s and 4/4 stuff do you go up on your BF price or do you charge by the hour? I have settled in at charging 1.25BF even though the guy down the road sells for $1BF. He is notoriously dishonest and unreliable and I have not had a problem getting jobs. With fuel the way it is I will not sell for less than $1.25 and if I were to get a job with someone wanting thin stuff, squared, exact thickness (unplaned) I would have to make a 1/2" scale and I think I would have to charge more per BF wouldn't I? I just want to deal with it now as opposed to having to try to decide what to charge on the fly. I know it is "up to me" I just want to know how y'all handle this so I can have a better idea of what constitutes above average labor and time per log.

[beenthere]

kevjay
Usually, from what I can remember, the lumber trade calls everything 1" and under, 1".  So your 1/2" thick 6" x ½" x 8' would scale 4 bdft, not 2.  That would bring you $5 per board.

But ya gotta set your price so's you feel you are coming out ok, as well as satisfying a customer if ya wanna keep him. Sounds like your not real satisfied knocking out those ½" flitch's fer $2.50.   :

[Fla._Deadheader]

We sold thin boards by the SQUARE foot.  Same as the Big Box Stores, OR, by the piece. That's how flooring panels are sold ??? ;) ;)

[Qweaver]

I've mainly been sawing to build my cabin but I'm also starting to take on money making jobs and I have a hard time understanding how we can compete with the box stores and wholesale suppliers.  I've recently bought CCA treated square posts for my saltwater pier that ran about 70 cent BF.  I'm picking up 1000 BF of ACQ treated to .4 of  2x6s from a commercial building supplier that'll also cost about 70 cents BF. ($5.57 for a 2x6x10' less my 10% discount)  That sure makes charging $1.25 per BF for rough sawn look pretty expensive.  I don't want to work for peanuts and I'm not saying that we can't justify the price...but why would anyone pay that?
Quinton

[treebucker]

Kevjay,
Since you already agreed to this deal you have to follow through. But I would tell him after I had a chance to think about it more that I was going to adjust the pricing methods the next time around. You should be charging for 1" boards like beenthere said. You can adjust your price downward slightly verses what you charge for a normal board to account for the fact you don't have to edge them and you are not using as much wood in each board.  But I wouldn't make a big adjustment base on what the guy down the road is charging. (You don't want to be like him.) Just make sure you do a good job in a timely manner.  The customer will see the difference and won't mind paying a little extra.

Qweaver,
I won't compete with the bix box stores. I've been studying their prices. [Yesterday I saw they were charging over $10.00/bf for 4x4 oak.] Look at their prices for wide boards and hardwoods. That's where they charge upwards of 10 times what I charge so that's what I plan on cutting. I let them give away the other stuff. It's their loss...I don't want to make it mine.

[tomboysawyer]

I wouldn't worry about the guy up the road. If the customer called you, there's a good reason he did so. If he wants to shop you against the other guy, you know what you have to offer - them's the rules of bidness (business).

He can't get what he wants from the big box stores. Last I checked, they don't sell flitches.

They also sell very little in the way of diverse species.

He and his horse buddies are like high school students - they all want to be uniquely just like each other.

I say you got a good little gig goin' if you're making what you want for the product and he's happy to pay it.

[Part_Timer]

You know that your price is set right when both you and the customer can sleep well at night knowing your both happy with the deal.

[TexasTimbers]

Really it did not take long to cut. I had it cut in a jiffy and I guess it worke out to about $150 an hour or a little more probably. Not counting the logs or the fuel blades wear and tear and the Diet Vanilla Pepsi I drank while walking along with the powerhead.
I don't mind passing up work if it's too cheap but i do not think he would have paid $650 for this  measly stack of flitches. I figure it was  fair all the way around.

[WDH]

It seems fair since you just had to saw it thru and thru as fast as psooible.  No time spent hunting for grade.

[Ianab]

I was going to suggest you work it out on a dollars per hour basis to see if it's worth doing...

Cost of logs + mill running costs + your hourly rate.

Sounds like it is  ;)

Now if he wanted them all high grade and edged thats going to increase all the above costs, better logs, more mill time and more work hours.

Cheers

Ian

[Ron Wenrich]

I think you'll find that 5/8 red oak lumber is sold at 80% of the price of 4/4.  Maybe the scale is the same, the price is not.

A 1/2" board takes just as long to produce as a 1" board.  That makes your production costs twice as expensive on a board foot basis.  So board foot prices would be higher to make up for the higher costs.   

[TexasTimbers]

I figured that out long ago Ron, that's why I want to get into the beam and timber business.

[WDH]

If you have to buy you logs, the thinner cuts result in a higher yield (#of boards per log dogged).  That has to play in the equation somehow.

[pineywoods]

We get requests for 1/4 (well really 3/16) white oak for use in building fish traps. The method in this part of the country is anything under nominal 1 inch is figured as 1 inch. In other words by the square foot rather than board foot. works out reasonably well. I even had one guy ask for some 1/8 inch white oak. They usually run the 1/4 through a planner to get the 1/8, but when word got around that I could cut 1/8, that went away.

[Cedarman]

One of my selling points is that I charge by the volume of wood in a board. I have my cedar priced by the square foot in 1/16" increments down to 7/16".  Any thing below 7/16" is priced the same per square foot.

One of the reasons I did this was that we custom saw most of our orders.  So we can make the widths and thicknesses that work best for the customer.  If a person is going to plane down to 3/4", I can save them money if I saw their wood 7/8 to 15/16 instead of 1" to 1 1/16". 

Our 1" lumber is $1.10 plus $.10 for specified widths.  1/2" is $.65 plus $.10 for specified widths.  So we take into account sawing costs and kerf loss.

All odd orders we get the money or at least 1/2 up front unless from regular customers.

Even with my extensive price list, I put a disclaimer that says prices subject to change without notice.

Plus I ask a lot of questions before giving a final price because specifications can affect the profit we make.

When asked, "How much is your 1" lumber?".  I always respond with "Can I ask what you will be making?"  If I were to give my standard price, they may come back with," I need it all 8", no bark on edges, no sapwood, and 10 feet long".  It makes it harder to raise the price to take into account all these extras.  Once I know exactly what they want then I can set the price accordingly.

So, Kevjay, now that the sawdust has settled was it a good deal?  One way I decide if it was the right deal is if I would charge the same again for another customer.  Did I come out where I need to be, too high, too low? 

As far as big box stores go, you cannot buy an ERC 1x6x8 in any of them. IMHO there is not a SPF board out there that has the beauty of ERC.

Saw more cedar! 8) 8)

[MikeH]

 Pineywoods,

   How do they make them fish traps???

Mike

[pineywoods]

re---fish traps
basicly a wooden box 18 in X 18 in by 5 ft long. made with 2 inch wide slats with a 1 inch crack between slats( thats to let the little ones out) one end has a tapering throat made of 1/8 white oak or ash, lets a fish wiggle in but rather difficult to get out. Put a sack of rotten cheese in the back end, add a concrete block for weight and throw the whole works in the lake. Nothing unusual to get 200 pounds of catfish in one trap. White oak is preferred because it won't rot as long as it's under water. Most folks here use brass nails or staples to hold them togather. I'll see if I can find some pics.

[LeeB]

Check before ya chunk one in the lake. They ain't legal in some parts.

[treecyclers]

I've got to agree with the folks that tally anything less than 1" as 1", or in other terms, by the square foot.
I've run a couple jobs for 1/4" material, and have yet to have someone flake on me when I price the wood out by the square foot.
It's a lot more labor and kerf loss for the thinner stock, and it's never flat for very long here in the land of negative humidity.
I also add a clause to thin stock contracts that it must be picked up within 24 hours of milling.
When it comes off the mill or planer, I dead stack it and band the stacks to keep it straight, ready for forking onto their vehicle.
I also strongly suggest to the client that every piece of wood be installed the same day they pop the bands.
It works, but it's not the prettiest thing in the world.
Superdave

[Tom]

I've always priced anything sawed less than an inch as an inch.  That's just for the sawing fee if they have the logs. If you want to cut them a deal, do it after the invoice is written and totaled then apply a "good old boy" discount to it of 10 or 20 percent ifyou want.   They need to know they got a deal. And you need a way of controlling that this price isn't available every day, only when you feel like it.

Hourly wages I base on what I can cut in an eight hour day divided by 8.  If they work hard, they may beat it.  If they don't work hard, it'll cost them more.  I don't like to work by the hour because someone will always feel like he got the raw end of the deal.  Lots of customers will feel like you sandbagged them too and could have worked harder. 

I had this conversation with Neslrite this past weekend and he has had good luck with charging hourly.  So, it isn't a proven better or worse way to work.  A lot  has to do with your attitude, your customer's attitude, difficulty in obtaining the boards from the logs and how much help is provided or how much you must pay for.

Whether the customer wants the boards trimmed may mean that he likes the live edge.  We have folks that make things from the edges. Some would rather do the edging themselves because they can get  more from a board than you can.  They know what they need when they go to the table saw.  You have to edge based on wane.

[Brucer]

From "Standard Grading Rules for Canadian Lumber", published by the National Lumber Grades Authority:

Paragraph 26. Thin Lumber

For lumber with a nomial thickness less than one inch, the number of board feet equals the product of the nominal width in feet by the length in feet.

The rule book is approved in both Canada and the US, so I expect you'll find a similar definition in the American regulations.

I always make sure the customer understands the rule (and I keep a copy of the rule book available in case anyone complains). I may adjust my price per board foot, depending on what the customer wants, but I always use the legal definition of what a "board foot" is.

I usually follow Tom's lead and give the customer a bit of a break after the invoice is totalled ;).

[Cedarman]

No matter how much explaining, there will always be that fellow out there that thinks two 1/2" boards add up to one board foot.  And will think you cheated them.

[Brucer]

You're right, Richard.

Here's a slight correction to my statement: "I always make sure the customer understands the rule before I accept the job."

[Cedarman]

Brucer, Yup