Weird issue: Bore Cutting with XCut chain.

[Old Greenhorn]

SO this is odd. I have been using X-cut chains for about 2 years now and I like them. But recently (this last 10 days or so) I notice that my saw (in this case my little 350) just doesn't like to bore cut. I sharpen my saw everyday after work is done and generally only run 1-2 tanks a day through it. My sharpening has not changed (that I am aware  of). I hand file and about every 6 or so sharpening's I use the roller guide to get the geometry back on track in case I drifted.
What I am seeing is that the chain cuts like a raped ape Really well when cross cutting, but swing around and bore cut and its as if I am trying to push the bar through a rock inside the tree. The first time it happened I just blew it off as hard spots and that tree or some other one-off strange thing, But now it seems to be every time I bore. Oak, Hickory, or maple don't matter. The chain is normal sharp and still cuts quite well in a crosscut. Because I take a lot of heavy leaners I tend to bore more than most.

Anybody ever seen this? I have not examined the bar yet. Usually once I get my bore cut set up, it just sails on through, but not now, I really have to push and sometimes even reset my feet to get behind the saw, so this is more than a minor feeling. I am not ruling anything out, but lets just assume for a minute that the chain is properly sharpened, what other things could explain this?
I have to sharpen before I go back out today and I'll try to look the bar over. Maybe I blew the tip out? That means a new bar for me. (non-replaceable tip Husky Bar).
Ideas please?

[chep]

Sounds like your Hook/Gullet has changed, , using a smaller gauge file inadvertently?  Has raker depth changed?  Full throttle on bore? Is saw revving how it should?
I would tend to suspect human error.  And prob on the bench. Dim light, late night, etc etc. Don't blame the chain. Unless you are experiencing the issue right out of the box 

[Big_eddy]

My comments are related to 3/8" C85 chain. If you are running 0.325", might not apply.

Where are you on the chain? New or close to done?  I've found with C85 X-Cut using the new C85 roller gauge (silver with blue rollers - not the older Blue only one from H48/Oregon) as you get closer to the end of the chain, the chain seems to develop more hook. More hook helps self feed when cross cutting, but I don't know what it does bore cutting.

The other thing to check is your depth gauge height. If your gauges are a bit high, it seems to affect bore cutting more than cross cutting. Probably because the teeth are going around the corner and the gauge hits the wood before the tooth itself engages.

I really like the C85 X-Cut chain. All I buy now.

[Old Greenhorn]

All good stuff guys, thanks and I'll look into each one. I did a touch up filing this morning and used the roller guide. I am not sure about the color coding on those and how consistent it is. this is a .325 x .050 chain, yes, I only have 2 files on the bench for 3/8 and .325. The 3/8 file won't really fit on the .325 with the guide, so I never mix them up. 
 Ed, I think those white and Blue roller guides are for the older standard chain like LPX and such. The ones I have for X-cut have orange rollers and were special ordered as they don't seem to have trickled into the shops when I switched over. of note is that there is no drop angle (on the file), it is held flat, at zero degrees. The standard chains used around a 10° drop on the file.
 No, I am not ruling anything out, and yes, it is likely human error. My mind is completely open (and some say vacant). I think you guys may have tripped onto the issue. I usually check rakers about every third sharpening but I have been bouncing around between 3 saws this season and may have lost track and which saw has what. I have pre4tty much had a saw in my hands everyday for the last month, so I have to check those rakers. This thought fits the profile of what I am seeing and feeling.
 I did check the nose and it seems tight and proper. I also feel no burrs on the bar. AT the end of my season ina few weeks I take a full afternoon and take all the bars off and dress as necessary, check filters, cleanup inside the side plate and generally tweek everything up so all my saws are good to go in the event of a storm or something. Jumping around 3 saws, I never really know which has what, so I just go over them all. Because I am semi-anal about my saws is one of the reason I am perplexed. I do enough bore cutting to be pretty good at it and almost never have it jump around when I start the bore, so I have confidence in my technique, it's just the way the saw is cutting. And oh Yes, the saw is revving and running properly.

 Thanks for this, I believe you MAY have found my issue, and I'll get back to y'all with what I learned.

[lxskllr]

I assume you've successfully bored with that saw/chain combination before? I'm unfamiliar with either, but looking at pics online, it looks like safety chain, and a relatively small nosed bar. That combo tends to not bore well. Examine the bumper links as they go around the nose for some clues and possible remedies.

[KEC]

I'm no authority on this, but in reading this post, safety chain came to mind. I don't have a good saw shop close by here so a while back I bought a new chain at a hardware store and specifically told the clerk not to sell me a safety chain. It was packaged up to where it was hard to see the details of the chain. Got home, opened the package and sho nuff it was safety chain. OG, I'd expect you to catch something like this.?

[Old Greenhorn]

Nope it's not safety chain, as I said, it's X-cut chain. I am very much in tune with it and know when something ain't quite right. I have that chain on all my saws. Yes, lots of bore cuts with that setup, never an issue until now.

[lxskllr]

Nope it's not safety chain, as I said, it's X-cut chain.

Those aren't mutually exclusive...

[mudfarmer]

yes the x cuts I have been running on 346 (SP33G?) .325" have the bumpers, looks like they call it a "guarded drive link". C85 3/8" I have, do not

[Old Greenhorn]

OK, I just came in and read your replies. I turned around and went back out to the shop to check the numbers on the chain I was using, then out to the truck to confirm the 'guarded drive link', then back to the shop to look at 'new in boxes' chain. Sure enough the SP33G is a 'green chain' and the C85 is not. I had started with the X-cut on my 562 and that is C85, so when I liked it and went to change my 2 .325 saws over, I just got X-cut  in .325x .050 and ASSumed they were the same chain. So I learned something new today. Thank you.
BUT, my lack of knowledge aside, I don't think that matters, because I was boring with that same saw/bar/chain a week ago and had no issues with bore cuts, then for the last two days I did, to a very noticeable extent too.
SO, after you guys mentioned rakers I grabbed the saw back out of the truck and stuck the gage on it and what do you know? The rakers are too high, by what I consider a bunch. I had to take 4-6 heavy strokes on each raker to bring them down. Most I ever need is about 3 tops, a lot are fine. That kind of clinched it for me as a smoking gun, but I went out to the wood pile and gave it a test and it is a LOT better. I won't know for absolute certain until I am down on my knees boring through a too small tree, then it will be clear as day one way or the other, but I can tell you it sure is a lot better, so thanks for pointing me the right way, I don't know how I missed it. If it still gives me a little hard time, I will take the rakers down to the softwood setting on the gage.

Now, back on this safety chain thing, I am going to have a talk with the Husky guys at Boonville in August if I go and they are going to have a lot of 'splainin to do.  I need to understand why they put those bumpers on the .325, and they better have a good reason. Then I am gonna want a proper chain, not some stinkin' green chain.

[KEC]

OG, Glad you are figuring it out. As to why they push the safety chain, I expect that that is the work of their lawyers , think risk management.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I think the .325 is the dominant size for homeowner and weekend warrior sawyers, which is where there is a higher liability. The .375 saws are more of the pro user end. So if that's it I get it, BUT they should make a chain available for those who want it and can use it without those safety features.

[ehp]

The bumper will hurt your bore cutting quite bad compared to a chain that does not have the bumper , their are lots of things that hurt cutting speed like is the wood frozen or not , frozen wood cuts a lot different than wood that is not frozen. Another thing lots do not know or understand . a racker height of .025 on a brandnew chain cuts a lot different than a chain thats all most worn out at .025 racker height , the tooth tips when it's cutting so when you file your cutting tooth back the lower the racker has to be so when the tooth tips it still cuts the same amount of wood , the distance from the cutting edge to the racker increases as you file the cutting tooth back when you sharpen it so you easy need to be up near .035 racker depth on a worn out chain to equal how a new chain cuts

[DHansen]

Great informative thread guys, thank you all.

[Old Greenhorn]

I'm pretty sure that was an accident.
 Actually the more I think about this difference between the .325 and .375 X-cut chains the more miffed I get. When a company releases a new product and puts a lot of field testing and then marketing and sales incentive into it, the product should be consistent or be noted when there are significant changes in different sizes, because by definition, they are different products. I feel like I got snookered and I am going to have a real serious chat with those guys when I see them next. As I said, I started with the .375 X-cut and when I was at Boonville it came up in conversation with the Husky regional manager. He had a whole lot of questions about how it performed for me, what I liked and why, and what I didn't like. He asked me a lot of questions about whether or not the chain lived up to their promises. He apparently really wanted to know. When we were done he gave me a chain and file kit to fit my .325 saw to try out. I feel like he was selling me heroin and then gave me in some heroin with fentanyl laced in 'to try' without 'mentioning it'. I am now looking at this through clearer glasses and will seriously think about either switching back to LPX for my .325 saws or trying to go through the pain of switching them to .375, which means new spurs (or rim sprocket conversions if at all possible) and bars and will be problematic at best, costly at least.
 Bottom line is that I am now educated a bot more and know I can't assume anything and have to question everything for these guys. Seems you can't trust anybody anymore.

[Spike60]

I can't sleep, therefore I'm aggravated, so I'm going to put myself on the firing line here, and go against the grain. Lotta mis-information. (Except for ehp who is as close to never wrong as it gets.) Most of it being the assumption that the presence of a bumper link by itself denotes a safety chain. Falls into the category of what used to be called an "old wives tale". That goes back to some of the early safety chain, that in addition to the bumper link had the raised tie strap. That stuff was horrible. The good reason the bumper link is there is for smoothness, same reason it's on the LPX you are considering switching to 

Now, since re-filing the chain seems to have solved a problem that previously didn't even exist, can we lighten up and go back to smiling vs sulking about being mislead by the big bad corporation?

Some background: SP33G X-cut and Oregon 95TXL Speed Cut are both properly termed narrow kerf chains. Narrow kerf is another term that causes angst, but it simply means a chain that takes a narrower bite out of the wood, therefore reducing drag. According to an Oregon rep I knew, the development of these chains was initially a joint project between the 2 companies. As most know, prior to Xcut, all Husky chain was made by Oregon. It was important to Husky that their new chain get the lo kick back designation so it could come standard on all of their .325 saws, yet stll be a good performer is pro applications. 95TXL Oregon did not achieve that and gets the yellow warning label. It does have a bumper link BTW.

As does LPX, in both .335 and 3/8. Neither of which are green safety chain. It's the LGX chains in both pitches that do not have bumper links. EXL pretty much replaced them in 3/8 chisel, but LGX is still available in .325. I don't do much bore cutting and don't know if  95TXL will out perform SP33G in that role, but both are really quick and smooth in cross cutting. You might want to try a loop of that, and see if you notice a difference. I'm a big fan of the 95 and wish I had more of it. Most of my .325 cutting over the years has been with LPX (Husky H21)

Last item, only way to switch to .375 on your 350 entails going with a 346 drum and rim set up which doesn't quite match the oil gear. It can be done, but oil gear life could be compromised in heavy use.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well Bob, I didn't mean to get you aggravated and I hope you got back to sleep after you vented in your post. I get that they needed the green rating for the .325 chain because of the consumer market and that's fine. The bone I was picking on was that they put the same marketing name on that chain as they used on the .375 chain and they are not the same chain design. In spite of getting my nose swatted with a rolled up newspaper, I think I am gonna stand on that line. They should have at least called it and 'X-Cut narrow" or something indicate a difference. They are different chain designs.
 But after my last rant/post I thought on it some more and realized that, as the end user I should have read the back of the box and looked closer at the chain. That's on me. I felt they made me feel foolish, and I would rather do that by myself, I'm good at it and don't need any help.

 I ran the LPX for a number of years with good success. If I got a little too aggressive in my filing they would be grabby in the bore cuts, but otherwise cut well. But the X-cut (in .375) was smoother, drove off a very nice chip, and filed well and easy. The .325 is pretty close to the same but not as aggressive, crosscuts very well but is a bit tougher to get that perfect chip. I still like it, but now that I know it is a different chain, will treat it as such in my thinking.
 As for the 'big bad corporation' I still like husky. All my working saws are Husky's, I have no plans of moving on from that. It's just that I trusted them and felt like they slipped one past me. If they were a company I had no respect for I wouldn't care, but it is a company I trust and I felt they slipped one past me. Yeah, I should have read to dang box, and next time I will, and the time after that.
 I hope you are still sleeping as I write this. I have a busy/full day and have to get at it.

[DHansen]

I have C85 on a 572xp and SP33G on a 550XP.  The C and S are stamped at the base of the raker for identification.  Both are called X-Cut.  Identification of the chain profiles and sharpening tool roller guides does require keeping all the data sorted out.  Following this thread was educational for me.  There sure is lots of marketing names on the chains that make it harder.

[Spike60]

Aggravation was 100% about the sleep, of which there was no more to be had, and there will be none tonight either. You know the basics there.

"Xcut" is just a marketing term like XP, low vibe, torsion quiet ride, or floating power. (We're old enough to remember the 3rd, but not the 4th.) It's what they call their new chain. There is no implication that they are all the same. Full chisel, semi chisel, green or yellow safety sticker. It's simply a branding thing.

Then there's the "they" issue. Did "they" slip one past you, or did the guy in the booth really not know what he's talking about? There's another thread here regarding a 1988 268xp where a chat nitwit down at Husky cannot date a saw and REALLY doesn't know what they are doing. Saying that the saw is a '98 by which time it had pretty much been discontinued after that chassis was replace by the 365-372 in 1996.

I think in both cases we are mostly dealing with inexperience and probably some incompetence. Takes more than just putting on the shirt and name badge to know what you are talking about. But that's a long way from suggesting an intent to be misleading.

Yeah, I need a nap. 

[John Mc]

Does the SP33G chain require a narrow kerf bar, or will is work on a standard .325 pitch bar?

[Old Greenhorn]

John, it's a standard .050 gauge bar .325 pitch.

[John Mc]

That's surprising to me, since they describe it as a narrow kerf chain:

I just found this on the "features" section of this page:
https://www.husqvarna.com/us/chains/x-cut-sp33g325-pitch-050-gauge/

"Pixel chains and guide bars, with narrow chassis, provide a narrow cut, low weight and enhanced cutting efficiency."

[DHansen]

My 550XP that runs the SP33G chain is a narrow kerf bar.

[DHansen]

The box that the SP33G chain comes in has the narrow Kerf symbol on it.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well I am in over my head here now. I'm sure you guys are correct. But I never specifically bought a narrow bar, probably I just didn't know. We need a guy like Spike to jump back in and clear me up, he can 'splian it.
 I was in TC for a few minutes today and could not help notice that all they are selling now is X-cut SP33G chain. Guess it finally hit the open market.
 I'll have to look for this 'narrow kerf symbol' , never heard of that. I do know that Husky calls them "Pixel" which just serves to confuse things even more. I am getting ready to give up on understanding this stuff.

[DHansen]

On the roller file guides, my guide for the SP33G chain has a light grey body and orange rollers.  It is marked 33 and has the narrow kerf emblem stamped into the base.  The roller guide for my C83 and C85 chain is a grey body and blue rollers. It is also stamped 83/85. 

I do not bore cut often, but when I do with the 550XP, the Stihl 23RS does bore cutting better than the SP33G, but that is just my opinion.  You can compare for yourself and see what you think.  I'd make sure your bar is a narrow kerf bar as a first step.  Just my 2 cents, from non-pro.

[DHansen]

The symbol is in the circle in front of the 33.

[barbender]

 I always liked the 95vp chain on my Husky 346. It cut fast, smooth, and held a good edge. I thought it bore cut fine🤷 

 
 

[Spike60]

Tom, I don't know if there's an official answer on the bar question. I never saw anything warning against mixing narrow and standard kerf B&C's. The key is that putting narrow kerf chain on a standard bar still has enough overhang that there is no binding. It would have been a colossal blunder to design a chain that required a special bar. 

More to the point, in a real world way, is that we never paid any attention to it in the store. We sold countless loops of chain and never gave it a thought. And we never had one instance where mixing these products caused a problem. It would have been ridiculously complicated if we had to ask which bar was on a customer's saw. .050 and .058 is bad enough.

550's might go out with the SP33 on an "Xforce" bar, but the pro guys would usually buy LGX replacements in quantity. They wanted full chisel, as much for sharpening familiarity as the full chisel itself. ( I think the 33 and 95 are easier myself.)

The S93G 3/8 lo pro chain is also labeled Xcut. Comes on all the little saws including the professional top handles. Those dudes won't tolerate a bad chain when working up top. It does have the green label. 

[Old Greenhorn]

Well see there, I just learned something new. Thanks Bob. I thought maybe I was working with a mismatch between bar and chain without knowing any better. I went from whatever was stock chain back around 2014 to LPX to X-cut without thinking of bar widths at all. The LPX I would sharpened as square ground for a while and tried that for a year, then just fell back to round. I liked how to square cut though. Now it's all x-cut. Only change I made was putting a lightweight Husky bar on the 562. It's an oddball without a replaceable tip and I have never seen another, I think it was only out for a little while and they had some kind of contest where you go on their website and register the purchase and in 6 months or so they would send you a survey to fill out and be entered to win some stuff (a new saw if I recall). Anyway, I did that and never got the survey, maybe they dropped that design from the line?
 The main thing is that whatever chain you use, it should be sharp (and have the rakers down where they should be). A small saw with a cheap but sharp chain will outcut a big saw with a dull chain every time.

[Spike60]

Found a couple stray items in the old showroom. Another Xcut chain, (they're all called Xcut), SP21G. It's their version of the .325 LP. Which Oregon calls Speed Cut Nano. Maybe we need fewer marketing guys? Never used it but I'm going to put it on one of my .325 saws and see what it does. Mix the old with the new and try it on a 51 I built with a jonserd 490 top end. I think this stuff is intended as a performance alternative for bucket saws. Small cutters like 3/8 lp, but more of them. 8 pin rim ought to make it interesting.

@barbender I also liked the 95. Always lasted longer than the full chisel for me. More forgiving if you hit the dirt and far easier to sharpen.

[Old Greenhorn]

Yeah, just when I thought I understood it, you just upturned the apple cart AGAIN and I am back to being confused. Nano? Pixel? LP? I give up. I think one of the main goals of marketing is to keep everybody confused and buying the wrong stuff. They win! I give up.
------------------------
 Just a follow-up on the OP. I was back out today, which was stupid with 20-30mph wing and I dropped a few trees which I had to bore through the center to put a wedge in. Ironically, on a calm day, no wedging would be needed. But, the wind was blowing against the fall and they wouldn't fall over. So I bored 3 trees and it defiantly bore easier, not quite as easy as I would like, but much easier. I may take those rakers down to the 'softwood' level. So in conclusion, I think it was 'me' all along. I have to pay more attention to those rakers from here on out.

[lxskllr]

Nano is a low profile .325, kind of like ⅜"lp. Used on small saws like top handles. Seems to be fairly new, and I've just been seeing saws shipped with that chain.

[Andries]

Maybe I missed it Tom, but have you tried the Stihl two and one sharpener?
For a two-tank, dull blade - one maybe two strokes of the file, and the teeth plus rakers are taken care of.
I'm to the point now where I'll leave a chain on the bar until it's sharpened out.
Just touch it up after two tankfuls and keep on going.

[Old Greenhorn]

Andries, I never got around to trying one and I wasn't interested enough to throw 40 buck just to see. I am pretty sure they don't make these for the X-cut chains anyway. I like taking care of the individual parts where I can see each tooth and make sure it's right, or at least know if it's not right. I started my working career as a cutter grinder and old habits die hard. Maybe someday I'll have a chance to try somebody else's, but I always saw it as a general tool. I know a lot of folks, have, use, and are happy with them, just never appealed to me.
---------------------
On the OP, it may not be over yet. Yesterday I said it was 'easier', but that didn't mean 'right'. Well today I didn't drop any trees for other reasons, but I did hack of the rest of the firewood I had by the shop. When I am cutting in a pile I use the tip a lot and I noticed anything I touched with the tip did not cut easy, if at all until I put pressure on it. Not normal. If I slid past the tip (meaning the bottom half of the nose radius) it ripped right through. So I finished up the wood and put the saw back on the bench. I had checked the bar for burrs, but this time I took it off and found there was in fact a bar burr just around the tip area. Not really big, but it might have been big enough. So I dressed it all properly, cleaned everything up (seemed to be dripping some oil) and put it back together, but I had cut all the wood I had here. SO it will have to wait for another day. That bar has a lot of hours on it. I also noticed a tiny bit of shake in the nose sprocket bearing, wondering ho much is too much. If I still have a problem, I might throw a different bar on it, just for giggles. Or I might just swap it for the 450 and worry about it after harvest season. I have to get this done in the next 10 -15 days or so.
I am gonna figure this out, and whne I do, I'll tell y'all. Fair nuff?

[ehp]

So today is was cool in the morning so 20F and we got 4 inches of snow yesterday so the trees had a lot of moister in the wood so a brand new stihl RS 33 chain would not cut at all , just staked across the trees pretty much , I ended up at around .050 racker before the chain started to bite , I'm cutting walnut so chain has to cut so not to split the butts . Now if the wood was not frozen I would run closer to .030 racker . I have video a lot of how a chain cuts where a lot that has been told is wrong , I see so many guys put a 8 pin on a 372 so its faster than a 7 pin and in 99% of the time its not faster at all, Chain speed comes at a cost to cutting speed to horsepower , It all has to work together and tree type,tree diameter ,  bar length , engine horsepower and engine torque all plays factors into cutting speed