New to forum - Looking for advice

[Dave Covington]

Hello, I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice on sawmills and equipment.

Background:
I am currently designing a timber frame home to build on a large wooded parcel in the Appalachian mountains.  This will be my next and likely final home.  The property currently has over 100 acres of mature hardwood, predominantly white oak, red oak, black oak, and chestnut oak.  The property has steep and relatively flat land and a good network of old logging roads.

I would like to harvest the lumber from my land for the build.  My timeline is to begin the build in 3 to 5 years.

I currently live in the Blue Ridge mountains, about an hour drive from the future build site.

Future build site currently has no utilities.  The only thing on the property is a 200 sft cabin.

I have very limited sawmill experience but I do have quite a bit of equipment operation experience (tractors, excavators, skid steers, graders, etc...)

I do have a tractor with pallet forks (Kubota MX 5100).  

Advice needed:
I am planning to start acquiring the equipment that I will not only need to build the home but also to maintain the property, make improvements to old logging roads, keep steers and other farm animals, build outbuildings and barns, and possibly do small scale excavation and grading work on the side.

I am currently thinking about the following equipment to begin felling trees, processing lumber, and clearing and grading the build site.  This is where I would really love to hear about people's experiences doing this type of work.  Here are my current thoughts:

Woodmizer LT15 Wide (advice on the mill and attachments/add-ons welcomed).  Is this enough mill?
Track Loader/Skid Steer - 2,200 to 3,000 lb machine.  Likely something along the lines of a CAT 279 to CAT 299 or equivalent.  This would accompany the mill to move milled lumber to a kiln.
Excavator - 13,000 to 20,000 lb machine.  Likely something along the lines of a CAT 305 to CAT 308 or equivalent.  This would be used to move logs, dig stumps, dig foundations and drainfields, and property management work.
Kiln - Would love to build a solar kiln but time may become an issue.  Potentially build a kiln utilizing a Woodmizer KD150 or equivalent, but I understand the amount of work involved with building such a kiln.

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

[Sixacresand]

If I were young again and had the funds, I would love to do what you are planning.

I would consider a bigger hydraulic mill and add an edger.
Build a big shed to house equipment and lumber
The already owned forked Kubota is all you need around the sawmill, drying shed and kiln.
Excavator with thumb will dig and handle logs too.  

JMO  Thanks

[Dave Covington]

If I were young again and had the funds, I would love to do what you are planning.

I would consider a bigger hydraulic mill and add an edger.
Build a big shed to house equipment and lumber
The already owned forked Kubota is all you need around the sawmill, drying shed and kiln.
Excavator with thumb will dig and handle logs too.  

JMO  Thanks

Thank you Sixacresand.
Unfortunately I think you might be correct about a bigger hydraulic mill.  However, if I end up not needing a skid loader that money could be used for a bigger/better mill.
A thumb is a must for me on an excavator, so useful!

[rusticretreater]

You might want to consider a root/rake grapple.  I love mine.  Pick up logs and put them on the top of the pile, put them on the mill.  Grabs brush piles no problem.  You can use the tines to gouge the ground, clear it off or pull a rock out.  I have also used it to hold logs while I buck them into smaller pieces or to keep my chainsaw from getting pinched.

I had a bunch of trees get blown down and it is dangerous trying to get them removed.  I grab a part of the tree to hold it while I am cutting and then set it down safely, things like that.

To put in my garage and gardens I cleared off an acre.  There are a lot of branches and for every tree I cut down, I got at least four millable logs.  Just grabbing them and moving them is pretty convenient.

[Dave Covington]

Thanks Rusticretreater

I've been wanting to add a grapple to my tractor for years, seems like now might be the right time.  Yours looks like a nice one.

[RetiredTech]

You might want to consider a root/rake grapple.

 Glad to hear you like your Wicked Grapple. Mine should be coming in the next few weeks. The 12ish week wait is a killer.

[customsawyer]

Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him

[SawyerTed]

Sounds like you are on the right track and there will be a lot of satisfaction to come from milling your own lumber.  

Two thoughts come to mind.  First, I agree with upgrading to a hydraulic mill.  All you are describing is very doable with a manual mill but time and wear and tear on your body will be concerns.  Even with equipment like you describe, time to rotate logs and cants manually and the "on and off" of equipment will wear on a person.  

Second, I own a Kubota MX 5100.  They are great tractors but light for log and lumber handling.  

[Dave Covington]

Isn't this along the lines of why @Raider Bill joined the forum? I think Tom had some advice for him

RaiderBill sounds like a good dude.  I'll try the search button, thanks.

[Southside]

Welcome to the Forum. Since you say this is likely to be your last house I am presuming you are no longer 25, as such I would really suggest you look at hydraulic mills. 

The 15 is an excellent mill and will produce fine lumber, it's the handling of all that material that will make or break you and anything you can do to reduce handling will pay back dividends. 

One of the smartest moves I made was getting hydraulics, and it wasn't my idea. I knew I could deal with a manual mill, fortunately I listened to others. 

[Dave Covington]

Second, I own a Kubota MX 5100.  They are great tractors but light for log and lumber handling.  

You are right, thank you.

[scsmith42]

How long / heavy of logs are you planning to mill?

Jake and I both have Cat 420DiT backhoes, and skid/track loaders.  I'd give up the skid steer before I gave up my backhoe with the integrated tool hanger on front.  I can pick up an 8000 lb log with it and swap between forks and a bucket in 30 seconds w/o leaving the cab.  I have a 20' mast that I made that attaches to the forks and I can use it to set trusses, etc.

If you go the skid steer route, a grapple rake is the best option for handling logs, and pallet forks for handling stacks of lumber.  

Farm tractors with a 3 point hitch are great for property maintenance.  They can pull a bush hog mower for rough areas, finishing mower, box and scraper blades, and driveway scrapers for driveway maintenance.  They are not as easy to use as a skid steer for forklift work, nor do they have the hydraulic capacity of a skid steer.  Lots of inexpensive implements available too.

Skid steers are not ideal for grading roads, but excel at small and mid size log handling, loader and fork work, and awesome at augering holes with a hydraulic auger and for trenching ditches.

I highly recommend hydraulics with a sawmill.

[Dave Covington]

Welcome to the Forum. Since you say this is likely to be your last house I am presuming you are no longer 25, as such I would really suggest you look at hydraulic mills.

The 15 is an excellent mill and will produce fine lumber, it's the handling of all that material that will make or break you and anything you can do to reduce handling will pay back dividends.

One of the smartest moves I made was getting hydraulics, and it wasn't my idea. I knew I could deal with a manual mill, fortunately I listened to others.

Sadly 25 passed more than 20 years ago.  I weight train regularly, but I understand this is different.  I'll take your advice, thanks.

[Don P]

IMO, in this lifetime, get the logs to a sawing field. Hire in a sawyer and get the timbers drying and at least some of oaks movement behind you. You cannot force oak timbers to behave while drying. Saw it oversize, dry it as long as possible and  remill at time of use with your small mill or a planer setup. Getting an experienced hydraulic mill in there to quickly build the pile will get things underway years faster. Mill plenty plus enough to build simple drying roofs over the timbers. Put the word out you need old tin if you don't have a pile. Borate the timbers green from the saw to keep the bugs at bay as it dries. Then prep the site, build the foundation, saw the boards, cabinets and trim and get that drying while you do the shell. A dehumidifier in a insulated plastic lined room in the shell can cook the trim. Or the sauna if you are putting one in.

[rusticretreater]

Glad to hear you like your Wicked Grapple. Mine should be coming in the next few weeks. The 12ish week wait is a killer.

EA Ted has his boys build them right.  I guess you are getting the Long Third Function valve.  Mine came with the fittings reversed on one end.  The pressure hoses are good quality though.

[Dave Covington]

IMO, in this lifetime, get the logs to a sawing field. Hire in a sawyer and get the timbers drying and at least some of oaks movement behind you. You cannot force oak timbers to behave while drying. Saw it oversize, dry it as long as possible and  remill at time of use with your small mill or a planer setup. Getting an experienced hydraulic mill in there to quickly build the pile will get things underway years faster. Mill plenty plus enough to build simple drying roofs over the timbers. Put the word out you need old tin if you don't have a pile. Borate the timbers green from the saw to keep the bugs at bay as it dries. Then prep the site, build the foundation, saw the boards, cabinets and trim and get that drying while you do the shell. A dehumidifier in a insulated plastic lined room in the shell can cook the trim. Or the sauna if you are putting one in.

This sounds like solid advice.  I appreciated the feedback.  I will be cautious about how oak will behave while drying.  
I do have a large trailer but, to my knowledge, the closest mill is over an hour from the build site.  Might be worth it if the quality is good though.

[Don P]

I was suggesting having them trailer their bandmill to you.
I have a mill, I've still called someone in or bought timbers when my time is better spent on some other part of the problem. You just rattled off a list that would take me several years at full time and I am tooled up and experienced.

But mainly I was looking for this link to post

Green Oak in Construction (forestry.gov.scot)


I'm off to look at just 3 logs but need to see if the logs are moving or the mill, its always "plates in the air" 

[Dave Covington]

I was suggesting having them trailer their bandmill to you.
I have a mill, I've still called someone in or bought timbers when my time is better spent on some other part of the problem. You just rattled off a list that would take me several years at full time and I am tooled up and experienced.

But mainly I was looking for this link to post

Green Oak in Construction (forestry.gov.scot)


I'm off to look at just 3 logs but need to see if the logs are moving or the mill, its always "plates in the air"  

Ok, I get it now.  My lower pasture would be a prime location to saw (it's the only flat land I have there).  I appreciate the link, I'll definitely check that out.

[K-Guy]

As far as a kiln goes the WM K150/ Nyle L53 might be low on capacity for what you want. Research the drying times for the species and thickness, hardwoods can take a while to dry.

[fluidpowerpro]

Ask yourself what your final goal is.
1. Build a timber frame house.
2. Turn rough land into a homestead.
3. Become a logger?
4. Become a Sawyer?
5. Become adept at drying wood?
If the answer is all of the above, go for it.
If however it's not all, then maybe a more focused approach is better.
What you describe, in my opinion, will involve years of work and learning and much more involved than buying equipment.
I think Ljohnsaw would be a good guy to ask as I think he is in the process of doing something similar in CA.

[jpassardi]

As suggested by others, you may want to hire out portions of the work.
My personal experience just as a reference: I built our house with alot of help from my Father and Cousin. We did everything - septic system to roof, Hired out only electrical, sheetrock and insulation. It took over 2 years every free minute. A timber frame will take even more time.

Not trying to discourage you, just be realistic with how much time it really takes. Good luck, don't give up and see your dream through as you intend!

[Dave Covington]

Ask yourself what your final goal is.
1. Build a timber frame house.
2. Turn rough land into a homestead.
3. Become a logger?
4. Become a Sawyer?
5. Become adept at drying wood?
If the answer is all of the above, go for it.
If however it's not all, then maybe a more focused approach is better.
What you describe, in my opinion, will involve years of work and learning and much more involved than buying equipment.
I think Ljohnsaw would be a good guy to ask as I think he is in the process of doing something similar in CA.

Thank you for posing these questions, they will be helpful for me.
In a sense, I could answer yes to all; however, I do not intend to become a commercial logger or sawyer, this would only be for my use and gratification.
Likely the most applicable question you posed is "turn rough land into a homestead."  I think that pretty much nails what I'm after.  I'm a self reliant person and I've dreamed up a couple of lifetimes worth of projects I want to do.  In a similar vein, I will build a smithy and probably end up making my own nails for my projects  :D.  I'm after self reliance, learning, and applying what I've learned.
I will try to contact Ljohnsaw.  I'm very interested in learning from others who are trying to, or have done, something similar.  

[Dave Covington]

As suggested by others, you may want to hire out portions of the work.
My personal experience just as a reference: I built our house with alot of help from my Father and Cousin. We did everything - septic system to roof, Hired out only electrical, sheetrock and insulation. It took over 2 years every free minute. A timber frame will take even more time.

Not trying to discourage you, just be realistic with how much time it really takes. Good luck, don't give up and see your dream through as you intend!

Thank you.  I should clarify that I won't be building the house myself, that is too much since it is just me, there won't be any help available.  I am interested in sawing the lumber for the build but it is starting to sound like maybe I should bring on an experienced sawyer for the big stuff.  That option might be very helpful as I can learn from someone who knows what the heck they are doing.

[Southside]

As was mentioned there is a whole lot of education that will come with the project you are proposing.  Just getting timber on the ground without damaging it or everything around it is an art and a science.  Then knowing which logs to saw, and how to saw them into the desired products.  You mention hill sides so I see off set pith logs meaning you start to make beams with them and the forces of gravity and said resistance to it will make 8x8's on your mill curl like a bananna right before your eyes, and that's while they are still green. 

Not saying you can't do it, and hiring a portable mill to come on site and get the heavy lifting out of the way and the drying process beginning will give you a valuable education that you can then apply to some of the other components of the build.  At the end of the day your fingerprints will still be on everything, they will just have some others helping is all. 

[Dave Covington]

As was mentioned there is a whole lot of education that will come with the project you are proposing.  Just getting timber on the ground without damaging it or everything around it is an art and a science.  Then knowing which logs to saw, and how to saw them into the desired products.  You mention hill sides so I see off set pith logs meaning you start to make beams with them and the forces of gravity and said resistance to it will make 8x8's on your mill curl like a bananna right before your eyes, and that's while they are still green.

Not saying you can't do it, and hiring a portable mill to come on site and get the heavy lifting out of the way and the drying process beginning will give you a valuable education that you can then apply to some of the other components of the build.  At the end of the day your fingerprints will still be on everything, they will just have some others helping is all.

Thank you.  I'm quite adept at felling trees, it is what happens afterward that I will need to learn.  I think your recommendation is good advice.
There seem to be several Virginia boys replying to this topic.  Good to see ya!