First of all, new member, this is a great site. Stumbled upon it few days ago.
So my question is this. Im located in Ontario Canada and am about to go back into logging full time (Laid off from factory I work at). Im just wondering what fallers typically earn for piece work. For example per tree, per mbft. I use my own saws. I am cutting mostly hardwood. Maple and oak, Veneer and logs. Im more of contract faller. Anyone with expierience going this route your input would be appreciated.
Welcome to the forestry forum are you just cutting or are you a cut and skid operation? Whereabouts are you located as this can dictate what you could expect as renumeration for your work.
I am just cutter. Cutting in central ontario. They will have own skid crew. And sure, what are the guys who are a cut and skid operation doing for piece work as well?
I am contract faller and I get paid hourly, and not enough. for me its hourly because I also do other things even though I was hired as a faller. I work for a small company and they don't put up enough wood for me to make it just falling. So I have adapted and learned to skid (they do mechanical harvesting too), and mechanic as well. I cut what the buncher can't get.
In Eastern Ontario around Algonquin Park some cutters are paid hourly, some by the tone and some by the tree. It all depends on what you are cutting to determine whats the best way to go. Someone just starting would start somewhere around $17 / hr with your own saw - they would provide gas and oil. There may be an extra few bucks a day for your saw. When i was foreman the cutters fell the trees and limbed, where skidded out tree length and hauled to the mill tree length but now they are felled mechanically and the cutters just limb which i think is much harder work by the end of the day. Each cut/skid crew is expected to produce at least two tracto trailer loads per day in average wood.
Well, I don't know if this is relevant anymore. It's been a long time, and most people would rather work by the hour anymore. But in the mid to late 80's we were making $13.56 a thousand board feet, felled limbed, and bucked to length in the strip. We supplied our own ride, saw, wedges, axes, parts, saw gas, bar oil, and most times insurance. Back then we had to cut at least 10,000 bd. ft. per day to say we were getting by. At that rate today you'd probably have to cut 30,000 bd. ft. per day to get by.
I get an hourly wage, plus a set amount for each log that I get from the trees, which is 25 cents for each 16 footer. The best days are the tall, skinny pines where I get three pulp logs from each tree. Worst days are the massive oak trees that I get one saw log from. But, on the flip side, I get a bunch of firewood from these big, crooked oak trees. I cut and split this on the weekends. Right now I'm busy making more money selling firewood than I make during the week. ;)
When we don't have clearing work, I'm operating an off-road dump truck, or a roller, or an excavator, or a dozer.
When I was falling, I was making $35 per mbf and $17.5 per cord that I cut. Like prospector said, 10000 bf a day or a combination of say 5000 bf and several cords was a great day. I was cutting, usually, very large hardwoods in tight quarters with a lot of underbrush. I provided my own saw, insurance, and everything else.
Since I cut only once, sometimes twice a week, I was never in a zone where I could consistently put 10 mbf on the ground. With my bad back as well, I would usually only cut on average 4-5 hours a day. Good day for me would be about 5000 bf and 4-5 cords. I have another full time job that pays the bills, logging turned out to be more a hobby for me, as much as I wanted to make it a career in some form or fashion.
Thanks for the input fellas, this will be helpful in negotiating wage. Company wants to pay me 20$ an hour. I have my own insurance, own saw, and I just dont think that's worth it.
In our neck of the woods, that's not much. do you get a ride to the job site with that? Are you guaranteed a minimum as far as hours? ( that can be a big one especially if you have weather days, breakdowns, etc... that could affect your work days). I suppose it depends on the size of the company too. I work for a small outfit so when something goes wrong it affects a lot of stuff that can keep me from getting my hours. Figure out your expenses and do the math. You got a family to support? That income would be below 40K a year gross.
Like Spartan said, it depends on a few thing. I too think, if you're supplying all the gear , insurance and eventually your own truck and travel expenses, $ 20 per hour is on the lower end.
Around here ( and I am just about three hours west from you ) it's mostly cut and skid outfits who get hired by the mills to cut a marked bush. All the operations I know are either father/ son or brother/brother or some how family member. It's always just two guys and i think they get paid around $ 150 per m/ft. The cutter is also the choker guy and they don't want him too far ahead because sometimes we can get a lot of snow here. Don't know if that helps you but gives you a idea how it's done in another part of the province.
Maybe it is $20 to start, but then after they find out if you are one of the few that can do the work, you'll be in a position to bargain for more. Risky when hiring new employees, until the new guy proves he/she is worth more.
Yup, family to support, mortgage to pay, all that good stuff. Drive myself there. All my own gear. I figure the amount of wood I can put down that I'd be worth more then 20. Hence why I asked about piece work and not hourly.
Quote from: lopet on December 14, 2014, 11:20:31 AM
Like Spartan said, it depends on a few thing. I too think, if you're supplying all the gear , insurance and eventually your own truck and travel expenses, $ 20 per hour is on the lower end.
Around here ( and I am just about three hours west from you ) it's mostly cut and skid outfits who get hired by the mills to cut a marked bush. All the operations I know are either father/ son or brother/brother or some how family member. It's always just two guys and i think they get paid around $ 150 per m/ft. The cutter is also the choker guy and they don't want him too far ahead because sometimes we can get a lot of snow here. Don't know if that helps you but gives you a idea how it's done in another part of the province.
I was approached to do an operator select thinning job like what you are describing, cut, skid, and load tree length pine, all for what would be $105 per MBF. On the surface it appears your contractors have a much better deal.
One bargaining chip maybe try out a day or so with the outfit at 20 an hour to show them your skills. Then renegotiate the wage, or quit.
There isn't enough meat on the bone at $20 after you supply all your equipment, gas and bar oil...no way no how. You will be at around $10 an hour after...you can work at Wally World and live a safe life at those wages. Oh and I forgot you were driving yourself there plus Canadian taxes...that wouldn't even be worth getting out bed for.
If I hire a guy to just go in and cut trees. When its too muddy to skid.. That's drop and top. I will pay a guy 3.00 a tree.. Guy I got cutting now is getting 12-16 per hour on the ground. I tried paying by the hour, the guy I had then was getting 18.00 an hour but only getting 6-7 in an hour...which is still 3.00 a tree.
Nemologger, is that $3 per tree any tree?? Hell even $3 a big sawlog tree...uhhh are ya hiring?? I would love to give something like that a shot. Are you providing the saws and gas?
3.00 a tree if it has paint on it...cutter supplies everything he needs.
Do you all cut scrag? Do you cut mostly hardwood I am assuming?
Saw logs, Mostly white oak and red oak...If I get into big bottom timber like cottonwoods or maple I pay 3 cents per ft.
Thanks for the info! I may send you a pm for a little more discussion.
My apologies to the OP for my derailment of your thread bud!
I'm with CCC4 on the $20/hr. Actually, by our MN labor laws, a company cannot make a someone a private contractor in the situation the OP describes. Even if they could, by the time a person provided everything from a pickup to comp insurance, you'd be real lucky to make $10/hr.
Quote from: barbender on December 14, 2014, 11:48:40 PM
Actually, by our MN labor laws, a company cannot make a someone a private contractor in the situation the OP describes.
what about the situation in MN means they can't be a private contractor?
Just being curious.
No worries CCC4. All thats being cut is hardwood saw logs and veneer. Thanks for the replys. Insightful
Back in 1972, a friend and i were hired by a logger to cut culls on a state job that he didnt want to bother with..
$.50 per tree to put 'em on the ground and $1.00 to fell and limb the hemlock (not too many) which the state reserved for their inmate run sawmill.
We cut evenings after work and on a good evening we made 75 bucks but mostly 40- 50 bucks. Lot of money then.
The job only lasted a week.
Quote from: Spartan on December 15, 2014, 06:30:28 AM
Quote from: barbender on December 14, 2014, 11:48:40 PM
Actually, by our MN labor laws, a company cannot make a someone a private contractor in the situation the OP describes.
what about the situation in MN means they can't be a private contractor?
Just being curious.
Spartan, I don't remember the specifics of the law, but I do know the Department of Labor keeps a close eye on things. They even have classes on the subject of what constitutes an employee or contractor at our yearly MLEP (required logger continuing education). The state was cracking down on mostly small outfits trying to call employees contractors to get out of paying all the employment taxes, etc. Basically, in my experience, if you're not hiring on a machine or a truck, you're an employee. Maybe if you jumped through all the hoops to get workers comp, liability, and set up to pay employment tax they would let you be a contract faller. I don't think anyone is trying to get in that way, though. It's just small logging outfits trying to call employees contractors because frankly, there's not enough money in it at that scale to be able to legitimately hire an employee.
Quote from: Nemologger on December 14, 2014, 10:13:11 PM
3.00 a tree if it has paint on it...cutter supplies everything he needs.
I like that idea. ;)
Determining the difference between a contractor and an employee is pretty easy.
A contractor will have all licenses, bonds, and insurance to do the required work. They will supply their own equipment, and you can't set their working hours, other than specified in the actual contract you sign with each other. Like; "No equipment shall be operated in the residential areas of this project before 7:00 am."
An employee generally doesn't have the required licenses, bonds, and insurance. They will usually use equipment supplied by you, and you tell them when they start in the morning, when to quit in the evening, and what to do in between.
I've done quite a bit of contracting/subcontracting in the past, and the first thing they want to see is my certificate of insurance. Then we can start talking.