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extracting timber from a steep slope

Started by oakashalder, July 01, 2011, 10:24:34 AM

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oakashalder

Hi,
I'm actually in the UK so I don't know if anyone will have experience of this, but I welcome any feedback.
The basic question is: how much more difficult, dangerous and expensive is it to fell and remove trees from a steep slope than from a level site?
My situation is that I'm considering buying a small (10 acre) woodland plot with mature conifers on a really steep slope --a stiff climb, not walkable. The trees in question are norway spruce and red cedar, and in my unprofessional estimate some of these are in excess of 60 feet high and 2 feet in girth, though there's many smaller. I've uploaded a photo (I think, "bryn glas.jpg" in an album called "oakashalder", but IE froze in the process so there may be no link) but it doesn't really convey how steep this slope is. It's also complicated by the fact that there's a fairly busy public highway at the bottom of the slope! Access is good, I'd say, with a solid stone track, with turning/storage places, running through the middle of what is a long and narrow plantation.
Given these conditions, is anyone able to judge whether it would cost more to remove the trees than the timber would be worth? It's not that I actually wish to do it because this is more of an investment, but the value of the plot depends on the ability of someone, at some time, being able to harvest the timber.
TIA

beenthere

oakashalder
Welcome to the Forum

Look into a winch system to pull the logs up to the "stone track". But it will mean climbing up and down to set the cable. Steep slopes can be logged, but it comes at a price. Can't say what the price for you would be.

Would likely be hard pressed to get a positive return unless the value of the wood is high.

You did well putting up your pic in the gallery, and all that you need to do is go to that pic and scroll down below it to follow those directions for posting in your post. That is what was done here

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

WDH

Slopes of that type are generally logged with a cable yarder in North America.  A main cable is rigged down the slope with a carriage that runs up and down the cable.  Attached to the carriage are chokers that are attached to the log, and the carriage lifts the log and then transports the log to the top of the slope.  This requires specialized equipment that represents a very sizable investment.  Check around to see if there are any cable loggers in your area.  If so, that is good news.  If not, then not so good news.
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Gary_C

It kind of depends on the length of the slope and access both top and bottom. I've heard of some steep slopes in Europe being harvested by a boom machine from spiral roads cut into the hilside. You harvest what you can reach both above and below the cut in roads. Takes a very experienced operator cause any mistakes in movement could be very troublesome.

And on some short slopes, I've known some to hand cut trees and let the trees slide to the bottom where a processor grabs them and cuts to length at the bottom of the slope.

And as WDH said, there are various types of cable yarders that do this all the time in the western US.

So it kind of depends on what equipment you have access to and the particular situation.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Ianab

There is always a way.  It's just, will it cost more than the logs are worth?

This is one way they could be hauled out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7-Keg61c-0
NZ logging crew hauling pine logs out of a steep gully with a bulldozer. A busy road at the bottom complicates life. probably need a crew with "stop/go" signs for safety reasons while dropping the bottom few rows.Bigger crew, slower work = more cost.

Hard work, especially for the guy that has to drag the rope down for each hitch. Not really more dangerous, as long as you know what you are doing.

Cable yarder probably not economic to set up for a small area, even if one was available?

Ian

Edit - fixed broken link
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oakashalder

Quote from: beenthere on July 01, 2011, 10:41:04 AM
oakashalder
Welcome to the Forum

Look into a winch system to pull the logs up to the "stone track". But it will mean climbing up and down to set the cable. Steep slopes can be logged, but it comes at a price. Can't say what the price for you would be.

Would likely be hard pressed to get a positive return unless the value of the wood is high.

You did well putting up your pic in the gallery, and all that you need to do is go to that pic and scroll down below it to follow those directions for posting in your post. That is what was done here


Thank you for the welcome, and for showing the the pic.

Who would I go to to value the wood? Would it be the contractor who was going to do the work, or a sawmill, or ...?

Ianab

Do you have consulting foresters in that part of the world?

An independent forester would be able to give a rough estimate on the value of the logs, and know both the local sawmills and the logging crews and be able to co-ordinate the whole deal.

As a first step they should be able to give you are quick yes / no estimate as to whether it's going to be commercial to harvest, just through his knowledge of local markets and costs.

There may end up being different markets for the different grades of logs that are harvested. A local friend is having a similar size, and terrain, stand harvested at the moment. Loads of logs will be trucked out to 3 or 4 different destinations to maximise the return. The extra income from doing that more than makes up for the fees the forester charges.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

oakashalder

Quote from: Ianab on July 01, 2011, 06:57:29 PM
Do you have consulting foresters in that part of the world?

An independent forester would be able to give a rough estimate on the value of the logs, and know both the local sawmills and the logging crews and be able to co-ordinate the whole deal.

As a first step they should be able to give you are quick yes / no estimate as to whether it's going to be commercial to harvest, just through his knowledge of local markets and costs.

There may end up being different markets for the different grades of logs that are harvested. A local friend is having a similar size, and terrain, stand harvested at the moment. Loads of logs will be trucked out to 3 or 4 different destinations to maximise the return. The extra income from doing that more than makes up for the fees the forester charges.

Ian

There probably are independent foresters, and the Forestry Commission quite possibly keeps a list of them that I can browse. Thanks for the pointer. As I say, I don't actually want to do this, I only want to know that it could be done and be worth doing. I'd be happy just to maintain it in good shape against the day I may need to re-sell it.

beenthere

Could be done?  Yes

Worth doing it? Don't think that can be answered, unless a lot of the unknown's would become known.
   If there is little to no value to the timber, then it isn't worth doing. And depending on the value of any timber extracted, the cost of equipment and labor expended to get it done would be limited by how valuable be that timber.

south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Ron Scott

As stated, have a professional forester t6ake a look at it and advise you on the potential logging chance and the potential timber values involved. It is only 10 acres and it might be a difficult logging chance due to the steepness, soils, access, along state highway etc. The property may have more value for resale  with the timber left on it.
~Ron

Azoresgirl


I think you should be very wary of this as an investment opportunity. It should be relatively easy to find contractors with the equipment to deal with the timber as such sites are common in North Wales, but I doubt if the returns would justify the investment, especially when you consider the costs of replanting, which would be mandatory. I certainly think you should get advice from a local consultant, or harvesting contractor, I may be able to help there, as although I no longer live in the UK, I still have a few contacts.
As an afterthought, I have been trying to purchase plantations for clients for the last ten years with little success, and have found that due to external factors plantations in the UK are generally well overpriced in purely forestry terms.
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all

oakashalder

Quote from: Azoresgirl on July 06, 2011, 06:34:22 AM

I think you should be very wary of this as an investment opportunity. It should be relatively easy to find contractors with the equipment to deal with the timber as such sites are common in North Wales, but I doubt if the returns would justify the investment

Thanks.
This is the general tenor of responses I've been getting from those with professional experience, both here and in the UK, so of course I have to respect it.

The only thing that might be different here is that there's a lot of interest at government level in increasing and developing woodland. Apparently Wales only has 4% coverage, which surprises me. Still, I've been thinking --largely because of the feedback-- that it might be better to acquire a tract of recently re-planted woodland, of which there are some available, as the growing timber can only increase in value while the harvesting will never be my problem.

Quote from: Azoresgirl on July 06, 2011, 06:34:22 AM

As an afterthought, I have been trying to purchase plantations for clients for the last ten years with little success, and have found that due to external factors plantations in the UK are generally well overpriced in purely forestry terms.

It is a small island! The UK government is planning to sell off some of its Forestry Commission holdings, quite large tracts, though there may be too many stipulations for truly commercial interests to want to take them on.

Bobus2003

Quote from: Ianab on July 01, 2011, 05:24:07 PM
There is always a way.  It's just, will it cost more than the logs are worth?

This is one way they could be hauled out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7-Keg61c-0
NZ logging crew hauling pine logs out of a steep gully with a bulldozer. A busy road at the bottom complicates life. probably need a crew with "stop/go" signs for safety reasons while dropping the bottom few rows.Bigger crew, slower work = more cost.

Hard work, especially for the guy that has to drag the rope down for each hitch. Not really more dangerous, as long as you know what you are doing.

Cable yarder probably not economic to set up for a small area, even if one was available?

Ian

Edit - fixed broken link

Too bad when their felling their breaking the tops off

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