We had our second sharpener arrive in late February 2022. It's still not working. It's been a bit of a process trying to get the different WM decision makers to get on the same page. Yesterday I did a video to summarize. Maybe the collective experience of this forum can agree or disagree or offer another suggestion to get this machine working.
20220425 Woodmizer BMS250MU circuitry issue - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDgfDyLTYcM)
I have had gremlins in my machine too, no clear answer on what is causing it but those relays are part of the issue for sure. I will open the hood up and see what I rigged to make it work but would love to know what the solution is.
I have not used the second type of relay, but the others, including the ones in my machine, have a manual override position.
So I had much the same problem and "they" were not helpful figuring it out, and it wasn't the circuit board, it was the relay.
So I've not used the one with the two LED's, but basically, relays of this style can be used to troubleshoot the problem.
First, the relays have a manual over ride position, as well as an internal circuit breaker. Basically a two function relay. So when the lever is up in the normal position, the circuit breaker is set and the really will function normally. If the internal breaker is tripped, the lever should be rotated and released, or pushed in and rotated, or ? depending on the make of the relay, and the internal relay circuit breaker will reset. If the lever is rotated full down and held (again, depending on the relay), the relay will be in forced closed contact mode, and the circuit will be closed forcibly. This applies to the relays in mine, which look like the ones you have with only one set of LEDs, however, I would think? they all work basically the same. If you go on the web, you will be able to upload the spec sheet of that relay online from the relay manufacturer, and it will tell you all it's functions and capabilities.
So the first thing is rotate the lever or otherwise activate and hold the manual override position, then the contacts will be closed and if there is power to the input side of the contacts, then power will cross the contacts and whatever is on the output side of the contacts will operate immediately. When you release the lever the output device will stop. This will tell you if the circuit board is applying input power to the relay input contacts.
If that doesn't work, pull the relay and use a DVM to check to see if the contacts are actually closing in the manual override position by checking Ohms on the relay itself. There should be a little circuit diagram on the relay, and also there will be one on the spec sheet. If not showing closed contact in the over ride position, and the internal breaker has been reset, then the relay is bad.
If the internal breaker can't be reset using the lever, the the relay is burned out and vernally means too much power was applied from the load on whatever it was supposed to operate.
If the relay is bad, or they sometimes die, or they are the wrong ampacity and were burned out (which is bad), or whayever, new relays cost $15 on Amazon.
If the output deceive turns on when the lever in the relay in is in the manual override or bypass position, then it means that the trigger voltage to the relay isn't getting to it. That may be what the second LED on the later version relays is indicating, I don't know, I haven't used them. I'd have to see the spec sheet. So if the trigger is not there, which is what is used to command the relay contacts to close, then that needs to be tracked down and it's not the relay's fault, the trigger signal is simply not getting to it and commanding it to close. At that point look at the schematic for the relay and use a DVM to check to see if there is actually a trigger signal on the trigger terminals and if it is the correct voltage. This is very similar to how you'd diagnose a starter issue on a vehicle. Is the starter getting voltage from the battery, and is the starter relay getting a trigger signal from the ignition key?
Anyway, this would let you know if the board is sending correct signal to the relay as it needs both power to the input contacts, and also would need a trigger signal to actually fire and close the contacts. Or it will tell you if the relay itself is the problem.
It's interesting to me that they are sending you multiple versions of circuit boards, I'm curious, have they sent you one that is the same version and configuration as the sharpener that works? I would get them to send me a couple relays, as well, or get the spec sheet online and make sure they are functioning correctly.
I hope this helps a little.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 26, 2022, 08:11:45 AMI'm curious, have they sent you one that is the same version and configuration as the sharpener that works?
A lot of what you said I'm sure is helpful but honestly it's a bit beyond my comprehension. The first board they sent was like the board in our first machine. Only difference was I was still using the 'finder' brand relays. The board didn't solve the issue. I asked for new relays and they sent another board, which is now in the machine. Still doesn't work.
This is a brand new machine, zero hours on it. It didn't work out of the box. So, WM needs to send me enough parts to fix this or its going to be crated and sent back.
Have you tried switching out the relays with the ones in the working machine to see if the relay is the problem. Also have you checked all the connections? Could be that when you switched out the board a pump wire got installed in the wrong place.
When I bought my BMS 250 a couple of years ago, it too did not work right out of the box. Woodmizer's techs were great to work with, and after trying out replacement relays, switches, etc I started tracing down each wire from end to end.
I discovered that whomever wired it swapped two wires in one of the relay sockets. Never could figure out how is passed their factory testing.
Woodmizer sent a replacement machine, and we shipped the old one back.
Quote from: Irecraera on April 26, 2022, 12:50:36 PM
Have you tried switching out the relays with the ones in the working machine to see if the relay is the problem. Also have you checked all the connections? Could be that when you switched out the board a pump wire got installed in the wrong place.
I will not switch out the relays from our working machine just in case Murphy's Law decides to visit. The machine needs to be running every day. Pump wires, all wires for that matter are in their correct places and secure.
WM obviously has some issues with their BMS250 sharpeners. Mine did not work but about 15 seconds after taking it out of the box about a year ago. It has the same relays that your "non-working" unit has. Initially it seemed like the relay on the right was not working so WM sent me another. It did the same thing. I could manually engage the relay by pushing and holding the blue lever in and everything would work except the magnetic sensor that is suppose to shut the system off when the magnet is in proximity of sensor. I traced the leads from the sensor and checked continuity with and without the magnet near and it was not working so it jumped the sensor connections to insure continuity and the relay would work. This tells me the circuit that activates the relay only does so when specific components make a complete circuit (like the shut of sensor and maybe the cutting oil pump???). I will look at my unit tomorrow and see if the cutting oil pump is wired in a similar manner to the shut of sensor. If it is, it may be your pump and not the relay. Has the oil pump on this unit ever come on?
Quote from: Mossy Chariot on April 26, 2022, 04:46:42 PMHas the oil pump on this unit ever come on?
No. I took off the hose and the brass connector, even the black tray under the pump housing. Just to see if there was a blockage somewhere along the way.
Jim, I think we can solve your issue. Try not focusing on the relays. They are functioning properly if all other components, grinder motor and advance motor are powering up. Focus on terminal connections on left side of circuit board. You have two terminals that have no wires attached. They are labeled as 110V and 110VO. These terminals are the ground and 110 VAC power source for the oil pump only. No wires, no power to pump. The wires that are needed are only short jumper wires. One short jumper wire runs from the 230V terminal to the 110V terminal and the other jumper from 230VO terminal to the 110VO terminal. The 230V and 230VO screw terminals have two wires ends connected to each. Just look closely at your older functioning sharpener's circuit board it will become clear what I am describing. The machine was not wired properly by WM.
As long as there are no revision schematics sent with your replacement boards, my advice is sound.
Quote from: gmmills on April 26, 2022, 09:12:33 PM
...You have two terminals that have no wires attached. They are labeled as 110V and 110VO. These terminals are the ground and 110 VAC power source for the oil pump only. No wires, no power to pump. The wires that are needed are only short jumper wires. ...
You might be on to something here.
This board is on the machine that is not working.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_070818-bms250mu-finder-side-terminals.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651054306)
This board is on the machine that is working.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_070808-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651054305)
It's amazing how complicated this sharpener is, my Wright has 2 toggle switches m one for each motor. Steve
This is discouraging. It appears that GMMills has found it though.
WM has one of the best reputations in the business for the equipment they sell and they make very good stuff, this is not a 'cheap' unit. Even the best manufacturer can have quality excursions (meaning a defect that actually gets shipped to an end user and not caught when built), but these should be very rare. There appears to be no fundamental quality control on these units and no testing. Any decent builder will have simple standard test to ensure that the product functions as built. At least plug the thing in and flip all the switches.
I worked in manufacturing my whole life building and shipping everything from fighter jet hydraulic valves and controls to large commercial oil burners, microwave components, tools, machines, semi-conductor processing equipment, diesel hydraulic power units and much more. Startup failure in the customers hands is always worst case and also the easiest to avoid. It is also the type of failure that will kill one's reputation quickest.
Given all that, I am wondering if WM is even making these or they are built by a sub in another plant with a different quality team? Even a one-off failure can happen to almost anyone on rare occasions, but a failure such as this over multiple machines is hard to fathom from a company I have so much respect for.
When these things happened at places I worked, even just one failure, I was often the one charged with following the process back, finding where the defect was inserted, and re-engineering the process so that it couldn't happen again. But in order for that to happen, the management team has to be aware of these issues and care enough to get it fixed. I wonder if this is a sign of some 'slippage' in that area.
WM is a good company and reading all this is not going to change my opinion of them in that regard. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it will make me more cautious.
Jim, sorry you are going through this, especially over several months as apparently others have. Were it me I would be hopping mad and on the phone every day. I looked in the manual for this machine and note that they include no schematic which just makes it even harder to find and fix. If you don't have skills like GMMills, you are up the creek. That ain't right.
The sharpeners and setters are made in Poland. Not sure what the current geo-political situations may have on QC.
Well SS, it does complicate things given the distance, time, and language differences. In the year before I retired I had a long running troubleshooting/quality issue I worked on with an Italian manufacturer working through a French broker. Scheduling phone calls and getting folks in the conference that could interpret technical language clearly was quite the challenge. Complicate that with the issues of proprietary information and it gets nearly impossible if all parties don't keep in mind that they are all trying to make money together. In that case the bottom line came down to the actual manufacturing facility not understanding the difference between NPT and NPTF threads and how different the inspection requirements were. I finally got them copies of the standards and we sent them a set of the proper gages which they could not find in Europe. We were at the point of developing a local supplier for our needs when they finally came around and began supplying good, or at least acceptable product. Failure of a 24' 8,000 working PSI hose can be very distracting and our customers were getting ticked off. We tested every hose assembly before it went out to 15,000psi, but we would still get the occasional field failure. (Some customers also believe they should be able to drag hydraulic tools around by the hoses and run them over (the hoses and fittings) with loaders.) ;D
These type issues fall to the quality management folks to get into it with the supplier and make it right. This is seldom an easy thing, but if a company wants to maintain credibility with their customers, they need to do something.
Can't add anything to the specific issue with your sharpener. But trying to troubleshoot a problem over the phone is difficult. You don't know the skill or experience level of the person you are talking with. There could be something very obvious (like a missing jumper) that a tech would notice if he was there.
When I was in the Air Force I was trying to troubleshoot an electrical problem over the phone. The readings the technician on site was giving me just didn't make sense. As I was pondering the schematic the tech asked if this was going to take much longer. Curious, I asked why. He said it was because his thumb hurt. I asked, "What do you mean your thumb hurts?" He said "Every time you tell me to make a reading, I have to hold the circuit breaker in to keep it from tripping". Over thirty minutes of troubleshooting with a trained tech and he didn't think it was important to tell me the breaker was tripping!!
Hang in there, you will get this fixed.
Doug in SW IA
Doug, truer words were never spoken! Very frustrating working over the phone with someone not used to it.
Your story reminded me of when I left the shop I was working as a CNC foreman (also doing all the repairs) for a 3 week trip to Norway in '93. When I got back, one of my newer machines was torn down to bits, every cover, guard, and safety taken off and the machine, I was told, was dead in the water. The guy working on it, who was always very vocal that he thought they paid me too much for simple machine fixes, had been trying to fix the machine for 2 weeks. Production was way behind. I asked what the machine did and if he had called the manufacturer's tech support. Between streams of cuss words he said that machine was garbage and that the guy he called for help didn't know what he was doing. He got madder as he talked and even madder when I chuckled at him. I was pretty sure what was wrong. So I called my buddy at the manufacturer and he started to rip ME a new one. He said if we ever let that guy call him again he would end our friendly relationship. He said "That guy doesn't listen very well." I asked what he had checked and what he thought. He was pretty sure that it was a faulty proximity safety switch. I thought the same also, but had not yet looked at it. I wanted to hear the story first. I was enjoying this whole thing because it clearly showed that my "simple repairs' were only simple if you knew what you were doing. So I went back out to the shop, looked at the switch in question and saw a steel chip stuck to the front, causing a false signal. I wiped the switch off with my finger and told the guy to start the machine up. Of course he told me "I already checked that ten times and that is not it!". I smiled and said, 'humor me'. Well he fired it up and it ran just fine. :D :) He got even madder when I told him to put all the guards and covers back on himself as a lesson in paying attention. He said "you just got lucky is all". It took him all day to get that right. The next time he came to me when his machine broke down and asked for help, I asked him if he wanted one of my 'simple fixes' or if he preferred to take a week or two to tear it all apart first. :D ;D
That's a great story. Simple case of not necessarily getting paid for what you DO, but for what you KNOW.
2 kinds of people.....ones that know quite a lot, and others who think they know it ALL
I think some voltage readings on the terminals gmmills has identified would be a quick way to verify the switching for the pump - but where are the wires that should be terminated there? I wonder if the pump switch is even wired or if there are loose wires somewhere - blown fuse would indicate an overcurrent/short circuit/unterminated wire shorting out?
On troubleshooting by phone and dealing with a marginally skilled troubleshooter, I share the following story. My daughter called me few years ago telling me she was at one of the parts stores getting a battery replaced in her car. The "clerk/technician" had shorted the connections some way and my daughter said there was a spark like a welding arc. Her car had no instrument readings, no lights and would not start after the event. I asked her to put me on the phone with the "clerk/technician". When he came on the line, I asked him had he checked the fuse for the instrument cluster. He had not. I firmly suggested that he do so. When my daughter came back on the line I told her she needed to make sure the fuse got checked. On the second call from my daughter 45 minutes later, the "clerk" had put a call in to GM tech support thinking the alarm system had disabled the car. I again suggested he check the fuse. He did not.
Long story short, I ended up going to the auto parts store 45 minutes one way from my sawmill job. I changed the fuse from the spare fuses I keep in my truck and that fixed the car. The store manager, the district manager and I had a brief discussion regarding either the refund of my daughter's money OR the invoice for my time and expertise (sawmill rates for lost time, plus my rate for mechanical work/expertise and travel time). They arranged a CASH reimbursement. After I had the cash in hand, I told the managers and the "clerk/technician" that I did a Google search for the problem and knew what it was in less than 5 minutes. :D :o :D 8)
Always start troubleshooting with the simplest items first.
can you order the relays online that are in the working machine? probably wouldn't be bad to have a spare set?
can you trace the 2 wires that are mentioned above to see where they go on the working sharpener ? then go to non working sharpener and see where the wires are on it?
good luck.. that sucks!
I just google searched, you can get the relays online for $10.91 matching the numbers on the one I could read on post above.
I would order a pair.. heck, I think I might!
Is the pump wired in at all? Where is it wired? Put a DVM on the where it is wired now and where it may need to be wired and check to see if power is present.
What is the voltage requirement labeled on the pump? Does it match the terminals where it is supposed to be wired?
For the pump to be wired to the wrong terminals form the factory means the factory never actually turned it on...if true, that's a concerning issue.
I agree on the, "simplest first" aspect of troubleshooting. That does get a little more difficult when you are working on something that is not right from the factory, or has been molested by someone else prior to your starting on it. As an example, I bought a firewood processor a couple years ago from an online auction. All I had seen were pictures, but the machine was basically new with only 35 hours on it. I had to drive 3 states away to pick it up, and didn't even start it until I got it home. Once I got it fired up, I found 2 strange problems. First, the saw would cut like crazy, get about 3/4 through the log, and just stop feeding. Engine not under load and the chain was spinning fine. I tried lots if things, I couldn't try another bar and chain becauseI had to order some. When I got them, I put a new chain on and immediately saw the problem- the chain on the machine was an .063, 404 chainsaw chain instead of the heavier .088 or whatever the actual harvester chain is. Problem #1 solved.
Problem #2 was the engine governor. It wanted to over-rev, by a lot! With only 35 hours on a 6 year old machine, I assumed some plugged jets. Pulled carb, it was perfectly clean🤔 I tried adjusting the max governed rpm, it wouldn't slow down. Long story short, I finally figured out someone had taken the original spring off the governor and replaced it with a hardware store one. Ordered a new spring, installed it and immediately had a perfect running engine🤦♂️I'm not sure what the moral of my story is, other than, never discount human stupidity and that hands that had no business touching a machine, may have been there.
Ted, that's a great story which brings to mind another when the tables were reversed on me. Same shop as before but 15 years later in a new building. We had a high speed CNC 5 axis horizontal that was slamming around hard. I was unfamiliar with this machine, we picked it up used. I called the manufacturer and worked through troubleshooting until we proved that is was the hydraulic accumulator gone flat (no pressure in it). This machine moved in rapid at 1200 IPM and without the accumulator it sounded like a truck crash when it made a rapid move. So I ordered a new tank and when it arrived I put it in per their instructions and called them back and asked if the tank was charged. They told me it was. I found this hard to believe that they could ship a steel tank through regular UPS with a 2,000 PSI charge in it. I called back and asked them to confirm it was charged. They got annoyed and checked with engineering and called back to say it was charged.
Still I was not comfortable and after a lot of arguing with my own management I got them to send in a tech to check all my work before we fired it up. ($1,200/day plus expenses) The guy comes in and tells me he never worked on one of those machines before. I said "well, you just need to check my work and make sure everything is good. I am worried about the charge in the tank." He complains all the while but does it, then says, 'OK lets fire it up'. So we do that and move it around a little. He says he wants to give it the acid test and I told him to wait until I check the back of the machine and make sure all tools are clear. So I have my head back there when I hear him say "Fire in the HOLE!" and I yank my head out just as the world explodes. He had thrown the machine into a full rapid move and when all that hydraulic fluid slammed into the UNCHARGED tank it hit HARD and ripped not only the tank mounts off the machine, it tore 4 steel hydraulic lines out of the nuts, bent a 36" cylinder to 90°, filled the air with oil and something punched a hole in the wall right where my head had been. Busted bolts all over.
I about killed the guy. He got mad at me and said I set him up. We called his boss and I told his boss this guy was no longer welcome in our plant, that he nearly killed me outright, and that we needed some fast help to get this fixed with a TRAINED tech. I was ranting at that point and it was about 9pm. I kicked the tech out, changed into dry clothes and went home. Now this was a global machine tool builder everybody has heard of. The next morning as I am trying to figure out where to start on this mess, I get a phone call from the builder. The guy identifies himself as the senior vice president of north American operations in charge of service. He wants to know what they can do to make this right. "First off" I said, "you can tell me what happened and how. I asked 3 different times if that tank was charged and each time YOUR people told me it was. How did THAT happen?" "Well" he said "they thought it was, but I went down and talked to the shipping department and they told me they can't ship a charged tank, it's not legal. We are changing all our documentation right now to fix that. What I want to know is what can we do for YOU?" So I said "well we need a lot of parts replaced now, cylinders, lines, another tank, etc. Then I am going have to do the repairs, rerun lines, put it back together. Then I need some help getting this tank charged. Can you get me all that, and how soon?" He says "yes, of course, all of that is being put together right now and will ship out today. I have also found our best guy and he will be available to you for any questions through the duration until this is running right. All that will be done. But my questions is: Is there anything we can do for YOU, anythiiiing at alllll you might need or even want?" I then realized he was trying to keep me from suing them, which I had no intention of doing since they apologized and took responsibility for the whole thing. And Yes, I got it fixed by myself, did the tank charge myself and tested the machine incrementally until full speeds were reached without any further issue.
Anyway, that's a long way of saying that even if you ask the right questions, you may not get the right answer.
Sorry for the long hi-jack, but I thought it might entertain whilst we all wait to see how Jim made out with those jumpers.
I should also day, that while I have been subject to some dummy having messed up a machine first, I have also been the dummy that messed it up first😊
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 27, 2022, 10:56:35 AM
Is the pump wired in at all? Where is it wired? Put a DVM on the where it is wired now and where it may need to be wired and check to see if power is present.
What is the voltage requirement labeled on the pump? Does it match the terminals where it is supposed to be wired?
For the pump to be wired to the wrong terminals form the factory means the factory never actually turned it on...if true, that's a concerning issue.
This is pics from our working machine.
Pumps wires are marked M2 on the bar at the bottom of the board, brown and blue wires.
A DVM did not produce anything. I have not much practical experience using a DVM other than what someone instructs me to do.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_174442-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals-numbers.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651093983)
As for the jumpers, #5 jumps to #3. And #6 jumps to #4.
Side view showing jumpers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_175121-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals-sideview.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651093984)
Pump specs of working machine
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182353-bms250mu-pump-specs-workingpump.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
Pump specs of non working machine
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182419-bms250mu-pump-specs-notworkingpump.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
Here's a picture of the spare "sobanski" circuit board WM had sent to me to use to replace the original "elektryk" in the new machine. Still didn't work so they sent me another "elektryk". I am showing this so that you can see markings on the circuit board. I have other pictures at different angles should somebody want to see all the markings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182310-bms250mu-sobanski-circuitboard.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
So far as I can tell, it's just the jumpers that are missing, as was pointed out to me earlier by @gmmills (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=973)
I checked, mine has the jumpers, also.
However, the terminals are labeled 230 and the pump is 115, and there's no doubt the jumpers are there. I can see how someone would wire it up "wrong" because it looks correct, based on the terminal nomenclature and the pump requirements.
However, to install the jumpers, then 230 is being jumped to 115, based on the terminal labels, which intuitively be incorrect. However, the jumpers are there, so there is obviously some circuitry shenanigans going on behind the scenes on the circuit board.
I would be calling my "guy" at WM and see what is going on. Or install the jumpers and see what happens.
@YellowHammer (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) I am waiting to hear but from WM on their next move. I don't want to jump ahead (pun not intended) and void warranty.
First issue I will address is BMS250MU machine is 110-120 volt machine. The BMS250AU is a 220-230 volt machine. There is not one component in a BMS250MU that is 220-230 volt required. With that being said, no fear in damaging components. The reason that the board terminals are numbered 230 and 110 is because the same pc board is used in both machines BMS250MU and BMS250AU. The difference is how the input voltage is wired to the board itself. The two black wires that are connected to the 230V and 230VO terminals are a 110 input voltage. The 230V terminal is 110 volts. The 230VO terminal is ground. So running the jumpers from these terminals to the 110V and 110VO is not an issue. The 110V and 110VO terminals are the input power to the pump circuit. Without these jumpers connected the pump circuit is not powered. This is the most obvious issue with this particular machine.
Jim, do not be concerned by adding these jumpers. Two short lengths of wire stripped on ends. Very economical fix.
Quote from: YellowHammer on April 27, 2022, 07:56:04 PM
I checked, mine has the jumpers, also.
However, the terminals are labeled 230 and the pump is 115, and there's no doubt the jumpers are there. I can see how someone would wire it up "wrong" because it looks correct, based on the terminal nomenclature and the pump requirements.
However, to install the jumpers, then 230 is being jumped to 115, based on the terminal labels, which intuitively be incorrect. However, the jumpers are there, so there is obviously some circuitry shenanigans going on behind the scenes on the circuit board.
I would be calling my "guy" at WM and see what is going on. Or install the jumpers and see what happens.
So yours is wired this way and you are still skeptical. Good luck with calling your guy at WM to get confirmation on what I am suggesting. Most US Wood-Mizer techs have a very limited knowledge base when it comes to these sharpeners. The reason being, the machines are built and packaged in Poland. Shipped here and sold.
Yes, certainly, I am ALWAYS skeptical if something doesn't make sense, the electrical board is mislabeled, until I understand the engineering situation with proper diagnostics. It may work fine, in fact it probably will. What you say makes sense, however, voltage is easy enough to check before a circuit is fried, but much harder after.
I agree with Jim, this is really a WM ball to fix, or at least get their approval, and potentially voiding the warranty on an expensive piece of equipment because "someone on the internet told me to do it" would not be my first move. That also includes me saying that mine has the same jumpers as yours. In that case it's "Two guys on the internet told me to do it." If it's 115V then it can be checked with a voltmeter very quickly, by both Jim and WM. The prudent thing is to coordinate with WM, especially since they are already in the loop. Putting on the jumpers may solve the local problem, but from a macroscopic viewpoint, coordinating with WM serves to possibly prevent this from happening to someone else in the future.
Does the manual have a circuit diagram?
I tried looking but got directed to Woodmizer Europe and it wanted a log in.
Without a diagram to go by, I will make many assumptions.
It looks like these are built in Europe. in much of Europe the standard voltage is 220Vac.
it looks like the machine is designed to use 110Vac so it can be sold world wide.
to make it run on 220Vac it would need a step down transformer.
to make it run on 110Vac the transformer is not needed and the terminals are jumpered together.
Seeing this is a brand new machine I would not suspect the relays or the PC board. those are very common "ice cube relay" sockets and the square 4 pin socket looks like it is for a DC rectifier to make 12Vdc.
Again without a circuit diagram I will not make any suggestions to another person.
If it were mine I would trace wiring on the working machine, draw a simple diagram and make the new machine match.
When I was dealing with the issue with mine the original style relays were no longer available, not sure about now. I had to remove that circuit board - not a fun hole to work in given the recessed and enclosed case it sits in.
Quote from: Machinebuilder on April 28, 2022, 08:08:41 AM
Does the manual have a circuit diagram?
No, it does not. When I was speaking with the dealer over the phone he was explaining even the diagram he was looking at, one relay was for the MU unit, the other relay was for the AU unit. He wasn't putting much weight behind the diagram's accuracy for that reason.
Quote from: Southside on April 28, 2022, 08:20:29 AM
... not a fun hole to work in given the recessed and enclosed case it sits in.
Since I've done it half a dozen times now, the easiest method is to unscrew the cable clamps behind the unit and push both sets of wires in a couple inches. Then go into the box and remove the 4 nuts that hold the entire control panel. Then you can pull out the entire thing outside of the box enough to work on it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220411_132256-woodmizer-bms250s-replacing-circuit-board.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651151999)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220411_135112-woodmizer-bms250s-replacing-circuit-board.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651152040)
I've been trying to understand this more, it's hard to do remotely.
The BMS250MU is the 110V option
the BMS250AU is the 220V Option.
I looked up the relays, they are both 3pdt relays (3 pole double throw), one is a 110V coil the other is a 12V coil.
The lever on top is a manual override/test, it will close the contacts without voltage on the coil.
It could make sense the relay with the yellow/orange test button could be different for the MU vs AU
Left to right
the red twist to pull switch is an Emergency stop.
the buttons next to it are power on/power off
the next buttons look to be a cycle on/ cycle off
next is wheel on/off toggle
next is oil on/off toggle
next is a speed select for the advance
I'll look further later, I have to go back to work.
Sorry if I am being too basic or saying things already known. I have never seen one of these machines and am trying to help.
I have to trouble shoot a lot of different things
Quote from: Machinebuilder on April 28, 2022, 12:16:45 PM...
Left to right
the red twist to pull switch is an Emergency stop.
yes
the buttons next to it are power on/power off
yes
the next buttons look to be a cycle on/ cycle off
When its off, the three function (stone motor, cam advancer, pump) are off.
next is wheel on/off toggle
This on/off switch turns on the motor for the cbn stone.
next is oil on/off toggle
This on/off switch turns on the oil pump.
next is a speed select for the advance
This variable switch is for the cam advance motor.
I'll look further later, I have to go back to work.
Sorry if I am being too basic or saying things already known. I have never seen one of these machines and am trying to help.
I have to trouble shoot a lot of different things
I hope you've got it running, I had a busy weekend and haven't looked further.
I am fairly confident that putting the jumpers in will get it running.
I can't read the wire numbers in your pictures but the bottom 4 wires appear to go to the small transformer.
This would be for the 12Vdc power supply used for the magnetic switch?
The jumpers would be the power for the motors
CZUJNIK = machine sensor
SILNIK = motor
Often times when I read about equipment issues on the forum, I am amazed at the tolerance sawmill guys have for manufacturers problems. In my last job I can tell you that most of my customers wouldn't have put up with us shipping a machine that didn't work. They would have demanded we either replace it pronto, or send someone out to fix it. Has Woodmizer offered any of those options? They should. They obviously have a quality issue with this model that they are ignoring to address.
I think in normal times that is true, but now a lot of times people are waiting 6, 12, 18 months to get the product in the first place. Typically from what I've seen in the past WM would've shipped out a new sharpener pronto. They definitely need to be doing some more quality checks and final operational checks before they ship. If it was me, if I already waited a long time for it I'd probably be trying to figure out how to make it work before I sent it back and waited for another one. Not that I think anyone should have to, just the way things are right now👎
I understand. It's just disappointing when I see that multiple people have had similar issues. Any reputable company that has any kind of quality program would flag issues once they are identified and then specifically test for it before shipping any more machines. Yes, wait times are long, but if you wait, and then get a machine that does not work just adds insult to injury.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on May 02, 2022, 07:52:20 PM
I understand. It's just disappointing when I see that multiple people have had similar issues. Any reputable company that has any kind of quality program would flag issues once they are identified and then specifically test for it before shipping any more machines. Yes, wait times are long, but if you wait, and then get a machine that does not work just adds insult to injury.
I realise We as sawmill owners are expected to 'fix our own machines'. I do not have an issue with that. I have had Brian at the Canadian office send me tech support PDF 's on trouble shooting as he is so busy as they are understaffed and undertrained in Canada also.
When the starter on my mill was giving me a problem when it only had 50 hrs on it, I was told by Kholer that there were no starters available and I should take my mill to one of thier dealers. (not sure what that was going to solve) I was told by the dealer that it would be 2 weeks before he could look at my new mill. This at the busiest time of year for sawing. WM had Kholer pull a starter off another a new machine in Montreal and ship it to me. I was back up and sawing in 2 days.
This is what should happen with Jim. Very simple. He needs another sharpener to run his buisness. Send him a new working machine and the old one should go back to the factory to be repaired. To be over 2 months trying to trouble shoot this machine is unacceptable.
I'm not trying to defend the manufacturer, to be clear. Someone needs to step up and take care of the issue. I'm only speaking to why owners are putting up with some of this right now.
Bottom line is they should get a shipping label created to have that one picked up and drop ship you another one when they see it's been picked up.......
There's an assumption here that the manufacturer even has machines to exchange of to drop ship. I believe there's a flaw in that thinking.
We are in uncharted territory with the supply chain crisis.
Good point Ted. That is the way problems have been solved in the past. With the supply chain problems, war in the neighbouring country they might have stopped production and producing something else to help thier neighbours.
Times are certainly strange these days. In addition to supply chain issues and component availability problems there are some less tangible constraints with major impacts. For instance I notice that a LOT of companies are losing a considerable amount of talent and knowledge base pool through retirement of the older journeyman level folks who have just had enough and the pandemic was the straw that broke the camels back making them decide to retire. I know that is the case with myself ad several others I know who were always the strongest troubleshooters for our companies. WM is no different in this respect and they have lost good talent. The next group coming up lacks that skill and experience and now also has no 'Old Guy' in the office to mentor them. They are doing their best and just have to learn the hard way, by making mistakes and wasting a lot of time.
It is also well documented in these forums that when most of us see a problem like Jim is having, we want to help and we want to see him up and running ASAP. Time is money even if you are running a retirement business. We are also a little incensed by a company shipping a non-working product. That just ain't right.
However, It's pretty clear that Jim isn't relying on this (2nd machine) to keep his business afloat. It is a planned expansion. Most likely he wants to get it right and work with WM to make that happen. It also appears that Jim has plenty of other stuff that needs doing everyday, so this is not a burning priority. He wants to give WM a chance to make it right. It's his machine and investment and he needs to handle it his way even if it might not be your way or mine. I am sure he will end up with everything working just fine, Hopefully the WM tech working on this will learn a lot too.
So @jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) it's been several days, have you heard back from WM with a new plan yet?
The supply chain issues currently are absolutely mind boggling.
I work in a shop that builds and integrates machines. We are installing an entire new product line currently.
This is a multi year process with planning, lead times etc.
We are having to accept machines that are missing components because they are not available, and the machine builder needs space on their floor to build the next machine. Missing components such as circuit breakers, input cards, cables. the industrial electronics industry seems to be the hardest hit at the moment.
It doesn't help that all of the machine builders are building more than they ever have. and dealing with staffing issues, People have retired.
Unfortunately this country has discouraged young people from entering skilled trades for a long time. Now we are missing the people with 20 years experience, the people with 40 years experience and knowledge are retiring (me too soon).
I do know some guys in their late 20's-40's but they aren't the same as the older guys. another point is you can be a great machine repairman/troubleshooter but not be good at starting a machine from scratch. I also know guys that are great programmers but terrible at basic electrical/mechanical. I learned many years ago its easier to teach a good electrical guy mechanical than vise versa.
Dave
I see one coming to auction in a couple weeks with 7 Wm mills. Not likely any bargains but for those looking at BSM250s.
I saw the auction advertisement yesterday. I might join that auction just to see how the mills sell. If the last few auctions indicate what's going to happen, those Woodmizer mills will go above new values. Seems like used mill prices have come down some but still above new values.
Anybody care to share or pm me a link? I found an auction with a few WM mils, but no sharpeners.
Here is the link to the auction.
https://bid.brightstarauctions.com/ui/auctions/78270
Quote from: Old Greenhorn on May 04, 2022, 08:02:55 AM
....So @jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) it's been several days, have you heard back from WM with a new plan yet?
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on May 02, 2022, 01:01:46 PM
Often times when I read about equipment issues on the forum, I am amazed at the tolerance sawmill guys have for manufacturers problems. In my last job I can tell you that most of my customers wouldn't have put up with us shipping a machine that didn't work. They would have demanded we either replace it pronto, or send someone out to fix it. Has Woodmizer offered any of those options? They should. They obviously have a quality issue with this model that they are ignoring to address.
Quote from: SawyerTed on May 03, 2022, 06:13:35 PM
There's an assumption here that the manufacturer even has machines to exchange of to drop ship. I believe there's a flaw in that thinking.
We are in uncharted territory with the supply chain crisis.
No word from WM other than they are waiting to hear back from the Indy techs.
I made an attempt today to put jumpers in. I was using 16G wire. Figured it looked about the same size. There is not enough room in the terminal space to fit the factory wire and a jumper wire. At least not 16G. My guess, the factory wire pin and the jumper wire would have to be crimped into a male connector that is small enough to fit in the terminal block.
They have about a dozen machines in stock. They are not shipping no more machines or parts until they figure out the problem.
That's the latest news I have.
Well, very sorry to hear that Jim. Sounds like the WM guys you are dealing with are right in the world I lived in for decades, except that they have not the skills to figure things out, nor the feeling of urgency at a 'dead in the water' customer. That's a shame (for WM). I would never just sit and wait for a call over a period of a week. I would be calling them every 4 hours for updates and reminding them (the IN techs) the WE had a GOOD customer with a brand new DEAD machine. But that's just me, and why I have no patience with the 'current generation'.
Keep the faith man and hang in there. Those kids will figure it out eventually. But I am sorry you are going through this, they owe you something.
My thoughts exactly. In my day guys didnt go home at night until we got things figured out. Especially if we had a customer down. They have machines sitting there. Someone needs to sit down and get one working. Its all a matter of priorities. They already have their money for the machine so....
BINGO FPP! I cringed when I read 'in my day' but I guess we have come to that point. I remember a lot of crazy running around in the plant, working very late hours, and ad-hoc meetings with the best folks to solve problems "TODAY, right now" because we took a dead customer machine as a failure on our part and it also served as a representation to our customer that we cared 'a lot' about whether we kept our promises. Frankly I never understood anyone who thought otherwise.
Quote from: fluidpowerpro on May 05, 2022, 07:33:19 PM
My thoughts exactly. In my day guys didnt go home at night until we got things figured out. Especially if we had a customer down. They have machines sitting there. Someone needs to sit down and get one working. Its all a matter of priorities. They already have their money for the machine so....
My son has a small IT buisness. he will have a project due date, his employees go home at 4, he stays till 2-3 am finnishing the project. His employees want to know when they get a share in his company. His comment is when you learn how to work. He has a few quite because of his work ethic.
My favourite comment from him to me..... 'am I ever glad you gave me such a good work ethic'
Just a little update.
Still no word from WM on a solution.
So I sent them an email with three options to choose from or this unit is going back for a full refund. They have until May 30th.
Good on YOU! You have been much more than patient. If it were me, one of those options I offered them would be to place that piece of equipment in an orifice it will never normally fit in.
I'll repeat my earlier thought to make it clear I am still a WM fan and user, but the service you are getting from the particular folks you are dealing with is below 3rd rate and does not reflect what we have all come to know and expect from WM.
I agree. I hope you can get through to the right person at WM to let them know how unacceptable the service has been here. A total lack of communication is a real black eye.
I would suggest reaching out to the President of WM directly. When I had a very aggravating and repeating failure on my 70 I went that route when it seemed nobody would address the issue. He was very responsive and went above and beyond to make things right.
He can be reached and talk with on the Official Woodmizer Facebook group.
He's a great guy and checks. In with folks on the group often.
at this point, I would definitely run jumpers and see if that solves the issue.. you have multiple boards on hand.. worse case scenario is you return the sharpener if that doesn't work for you. best case scenario is your 2cd sharpener is now up and running using the same wiring design as the original.
please keep us up to speed on this. I have the BMS 250 and BMT 250 so I like to stay up on all this stuff in case I ever run into an issue.
Quote from: Bruno of NH on May 13, 2022, 01:55:12 AM
He can be reached and talk with on the Official Woodmizer Facebook group.
He's a great guy and checks. In with folks on the group often.
I made comment on the WM FB group on May 8th to a fellow who was looking to buy on May 7th (https://www.facebook.com/groups/woodmizercanada?sorting_setting=CHRONOLOGICAL). Another person named Darryl Floyd replied. He didn't identify himself as a WM employee but another person messaged me to say he was the president. So he's known a week now and not one word. The only reply I got was from the east coast dealer (Bert) to whom I sent my 'three options' email. He replied and was understanding of the situation. He's always replied promptly to the concerns and questions, getting the answers needed. It just seems that we both are being stonewalled by WM on what to do. From what I can determine, everyone is waiting on WM USA to come up with an answer.
Well it looks like I may be in the same boat. I picked up my bms250 last week and set it up yesterday. Turned it on and everything except the pump ran for about a minute then the grinder shut off, then a short time later the advance stopped. I found the fuse just below the relays blown and replaced it. Now the advance works , but nothing else does. Yes, getting a faulty machine after a 3 month wait that turned into a 8 month wait is insult to injury. I am confident that it will all work out in the end though.
Just went out and did a couple more checks. 1) the "finder" relay bipass is done by pushing in on the lever. Don't know if this resets anything. (2 the fuse below the relay is blown again, but the advance is still working. 3) I have power coming from the grinder and the pump toggles, but neither are working. 4) the 110v and 110vo ports are open with no jumper 4) I'm not a sparky, so this should be entertaining 🙈
Looks like you will be spending some quality time with WM on the phone tomorrow, sorry. You may want to make him aware that you know there are problems with these machines and refer him/her to this thread to save time. ;D
Given what Jim had already endured and the length of time involved, I would let too much time elapse between 'entertainment' and outrage. The can't keep shipping stuff like this, it will hurt them in the long run.
Yes, I'll definitely be on the phone in the morning. I just hope this get resolved in the fashion that has gained my trust in WM.
Is this the jumper that's been discussed?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/F966B97C-8122-4FE4-BAD0-EB192A6EAC22.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1652625719)
I don't know @Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) I didn't get a wiring diagram with my machine. These are the two on my machine. Left side of the panel. #5 jumps to #3. #6 jumps to #4.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_175121-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals-sideview.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651093984)
Crossroads, how did you lay your hands on that wiring diagram? It would be nice if they had put that in the manual for all their users. A schematic would be most useful also. I can't read the title block but it appears that is for 110v wiring. It does not show the jumper from 3 to 5 though.
That came with the manual, unfortunately reading wiring diagrams is not my strong point.
Wish that wiring schematic was higher res and that I could see the whole thing.
From what I can see it looks like you definitely need the jumper from 4 to 6, that's the only way your getting 110v to that motor. The jumper from 3 to 5 might not be needed as the schematic shows those lines connect at the right hand relay.
Just my input for what its worth ;D
Edit: just zoomed in as much as I could and it is possible you need that second jumper from 3 to 5. The amperage on 110v might be too much for that 2amp fuse so it might need the 1.6amp fuse in parallell....but don't quote me on that. I would need the schematic for the relay and the full high res board schematic to say for sure.
I just contacted Mr Floyd on FB
We will see if he can help you folks out
I sure hope so. Nothing ticks off a customer more than having to call repeatedly without getting some sort of explanation and progress beyond 'we are looking into it'. That goes double for dedicated customers who feel that their trust is being taken advantage of.
I sent Mr. Floyd a pm as well, but haven't heard back at this point. I'll try to get a better picture of the print after bit. Thank you
Quote from: jimbarry on May 15, 2022, 07:20:29 AM
The only reply I got was from the east coast dealer (Bert) to whom I sent my 'three options' email.
I'd really like to know what the three options you proposed were.
Brian
Quote from: alco424 on May 15, 2022, 11:30:00 PMI'd really like to know what the three options you proposed were.
Brian
Here is a portion of the email I sent:
Quote
...
1. Find a solution that works by May 30th 2022,
2. replace this machine with one that does work by May 30th, 2022, or
3. provide me a full refund by May 30th, 2022.
Woodmizer is hereby served notice that they have until May 30th 2022 to fix or replace this machine, or provide a full refund. Failure to provide a solution by the date specified will result in this machine being sent back to Woodmizer on June 01 and upon delivery, I will file a chargeback claim with the credit card company.
...
Today is another day and It's Monday.
I hope you guys hear from Woodmizer Today
And make sure they pay for the shipping.....
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/127AE054-8EF9-48C4-AD37-9DE749F66A8C.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1652711274)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43396/7E181582-8A06-4BFA-AE58-51FD66C93B8C.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1652711360)
Here is a Polish version of the electrical diagram for the BMS250 Woodmizer CBN sharpener I don't know if its for the "MU" (North American) version or the "AU" (Euro) version. Or both.
The circuit board on page 5 of that PDF is labeled "P.P.H. Sobanski" (upper left corner of the circuit board). That's the board that is in our first BMS250, it works. The second VBMS250 had a circuit board labeled "ELECTRYK".
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220328_141522-circuit-board-woodmizer-BMS250MU.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652714303)
Which was replaced at the request of WM with a Sobanski board because the ELECTRYK board had a 5A fuse in the F4 position. They said it was suppose to be in the F3 position so they sent another Sobanski board. As reported earlier that didn't work either. So a third board was sent, another "ELEKTRYK". Still didn't solve the problem.
I also want to point out something I discovered this morning, the gadget to the right (transformer?) is wired differently on the two machines. On the working machine "Sobanski", the green/yellow wire goes to the top orange plastic widget, into the left terminal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220516_123355-woodmizer-bms250-goodmachine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652715559)
On the machine that is not working, the "ELEKTRYK", the green/yellow wire goes to the top orange plastic widget, into the terminal on the right.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220516_123403-woodmizer-bms250-secondmachine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652715559)
It came like that because I didn't touch those wires. Maybe that could be a part of this issue, I don't know.
If the motor that pushes the blade forward works then the 12v transformer wiring is irrelevant.
Here is the circuit for the coolant pump...I did this on my phone so don't judge haha
You can see why at least the red jumper is necessary. And the orange is probably necessary as that little black fuse wire is 2amp and it looks to power the grinder motor (1.5amp) and needs the jumper to put some of the power through the other fuse (1.6amp) to power the coolant motor (1.1amp)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67725/bms_250.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1652718503)
Something else I thought I'd mention is that if your grinder motor is working then there should be nothing nothing wrong with the relay that powers the pump.
Something you could do if you have a multimeter is put it on AC
-turn on the power and the pump switch
-put each prong of your meter on each of the pump motor outputs
-if you have 100-120volts the pump or wiring to the pump is most likely the issue
-if you have no power then do the following
-put one prong of your multimeter on one of the 110v inputs and the other on each of the outputs to the pump.
-see if you get 100-120volts on one of them
-if you do put one prong on the other 110v input
-put the other on the one that did not read any power earlier
This will let you know what circuit you have problem with or if you have no power through both circuits that goto the pump
So, this is interesting. When testing the input power I have 122v at L1 and the neutral above it. If I go the the ground bus in the bottom of the box, I have 163v on the hot side of the 5a fuse at f4.
Quote from: MattM on May 16, 2022, 12:51:34 PM
Something else I thought I'd mention ....
Appreciate the input @MattM (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=57725) . I am a complete luddite when it comes to electrical. These are two meters I have. I don't really know how to set them. Each time i used them, whoever I was talking with had to guide me each step along the way. As for inputs and outputs, you'd have to literally point them out or guide me over a phone call.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220516_142945-electrical-meters.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652730715)
Move the Dial to the 200v AC top right and move the red plug to the second plug hole.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/67088/mm.jpg)
I'd love to help on the phone..... But I need my phone to look at the schematic picture from here, the pdf schematics from Europe and the relay data sheet. I had to start making notes. After seeing those schematics I'm kinda disappointed that the over $3000 European made sharpener that I just order last month has the Chinese Export logo on it.... I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed....
To make things easier just use the clamp meter. Set it to the V with the squiggle next to it.
For the following tests it doesn't matter which lead (red or black) you put where.
With the machine on and pump one
Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts (verifys you have power and that your meters working right)
Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v (tells you if there is power to the pump, if there is power here skip the next test because something is wrong with the pump or its wires)
Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue should be 110v
Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown should be 110v ( if no voltage here then you need the jumpers on 3 to 5 and 4 to 6)
Hope this helps.... I offer no warranty on my advice haha
Well, it's 6pm here on the east coast and I guess nobody heard back from WM today. That's disheartening.
Quote from: MattM on May 16, 2022, 05:50:02 PM
...
To make things easier just use the clamp meter. Set it to the V with the squiggle next to it.
For the following tests it doesn't matter which lead (red or black) you put where.
With the machine on and pump one
Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts (verifys you have power and that your meters working right)
Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v (tells you if there is power to the pump, if there is power here skip the next test because something is wrong with the pump or its wires)
Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue should be 110v
Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown should be 110v ( if no voltage here then you need the jumpers on 3 to 5 and 4 to 6)
Hope this helps.... I offer no warranty on my advice haha
What I have circled is I believe are the M2 wires you mentioned. But I am not sure for the 3 and 4 refer to. ??
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/Screenshot2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652739615)
Quote from: jimbarry on April 27, 2022, 05:30:45 PM
This is pics from our working machine.
Pumps wires are marked M2 on the bar at the bottom of the board, brown and blue wires.
A DVM did not produce anything. I have not much practical experience using a DVM other than what someone instructs me to do.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_174442-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals-numbers.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651093983)
As for the jumpers, #5 jumps to #3. And #6 jumps to #4.
Side view showing jumpers.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_175121-bms250mu-relpol-side-terminals-sideview.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651093984)
Pump specs of working machine
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182353-bms250mu-pump-specs-workingpump.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
Pump specs of non working machine
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182419-bms250mu-pump-specs-notworkingpump.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
Here's a picture of the spare "sobanski" circuit board WM had sent to me to use to replace the original "elektryk" in the new machine. Still didn't work so they sent me another "elektryk". I am showing this so that you can see markings on the circuit board. I have other pictures at different angles should somebody want to see all the markings.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220427_182310-bms250mu-sobanski-circuitboard.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651094771)
So far as I can tell, it's just the jumpers that are missing, as was pointed out to me earlier by @gmmills (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=973)
Yup that's the M2's I was talking about. As for the numbers I was going off this picture you posted a while back, it's in the quote above. They're the ones labeled 230v
Quote from: MattM on May 16, 2022, 05:50:02 PMWith the machine on and pump one
Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts (verifys you have power and that your meters working right)
Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v (tells you if there is power to the pump, if there is power here skip the next test because something is wrong with the pump or its wires)
Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue should be 110v
Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown should be 110v ( if no voltage here then you need the jumpers on 3 to 5 and 4 to 6)
- Machine on, both buttons (M1 and M2, see pg 4 of Electrical pdf)
- Pump on (M3, see pg 4 of Electrical pdf)
- Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts... reads 121-122V.
- Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v... reads 0V.
- Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue... reads 82-83V
- Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown... reads 5V.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/Screenshot~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652746082)
Quote from: jimbarry on May 16, 2022, 08:00:54 PM
Quote from: MattM on May 16, 2022, 05:50:02 PMWith the machine on and pump one
Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts (verifys you have power and that your meters working right)
Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v (tells you if there is power to the pump, if there is power here skip the next test because something is wrong with the pump or its wires)
Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue should be 110v
Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown should be 110v ( if no voltage here then you need the jumpers on 3 to 5 and 4 to 6)
- Machine on, both buttons (M1 and M2, see pg 4 of Electrical pdf)
- Pump on (M3, see pg 4 of Electrical pdf)
- Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts... reads 121-122V.
- Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v... reads 0V.
- Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue... reads 82-83V
- Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown... reads 5V.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/Screenshot~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652746082)
The bit of power your getting between the brown and 4 and the blue and 3 is most likely from the little jumper you can see on the right hand relay. The jumper connects the power coming from the black fuse ( grinder motor) to the other fuse line. If it were mine is put the jumpers in. But that's a personal choice, only do it if your comfortable doing it. ;D
I got a message back from Mr Floyd, apparently the engineers have found a sensor that is intermittently failing due to moisture. The interesting part is, I have yet to talk to anyone at Wm to tell them what my machine is/isn't doing. 🤔
The ELEKTRYK board in the non working machine has a jumper bar across the F4 location to complete circuit, no fuse. The F3 location has an actual fuse. The Sobanski board in the working machine is identically configured. The F3 fuse protects the oil pump circuit only. This circuit is powered through the 110V terminal. The 110VO terminal is ground circuit. When configured this way, the 110v circuit has to have a power source. Jumper from 230V terminal achieves this. You need to power this circuit in order for pump to work. I feel you need to find a way to get jumpers installed.
Jim , you stated that you could not fit a 16 ga jumper wire into 230V terminal space. Were you sure that the terminal screw was backed out far enough? My machine has a Sobanski board and there is no issue adding the extra wire to terminal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10973/thumbnail5B15D_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651881028)
Note the stripped wire inserted on top of original. Maybe the ELEKTRYK board has smaller terminal sockets. Wish I was able to be on site to help. I think we could get this pump issue repaired in 20 mins max.
Quote from: gmmills on May 16, 2022, 10:35:59 PM
The ELEKTRYK board in the non working machine has a jumper bar across the F4 location to complete circuit, no fuse. The F3 location has an actual fuse. The Sobanski board in the working machine is identically configured. The F3 fuse protects the oil pump circuit only. This circuit is powered through the 110V terminal. The 110VO terminal is ground circuit. When configured this way, the 110v circuit has to have a power source. Jumper from 230V terminal achieves this. You need to power this circuit in order for pump to work. I feel you need to find a way to get jumpers installed.
Jim , you stated that you could not fit a 16 ga jumper wire into 230V terminal space. Were you sure that the terminal screw was backed out far enough? My machine has a Sobanski board and there is no issue adding the extra wire to terminal.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10973/thumbnail5B15D_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1651881028)
Note the stripped wire inserted on top of original. Maybe the ELEKTRYK board has smaller terminal sockets. Wish I was able to be on site to help. I think we could get this pump issue repaired in 20 mins max.
Jumper or fuse link (essentially a smaller wire than the main circuit that melts when to much power passes through), cause it looks like a fuse link to me and the diagram and circuit board both call it a fuse. I could be wrong though.
Not quite sure what you mean by the 110VO being ground circuit? Do you mean you tested it with a meter and it had continuity with ground? If it did it's probably the neutral wire, sometimes neutral is bonded to ground sometimes not.
You are right about those terminal blocks though sometimes you think you have those screws backed out a mile but in reality it's hardly out at all. Also sometimes it can be a bit of a nuisance to get a wire in past the wedge like clamp. Jim just make sure you back it out as far as you can and the try inserting the wire.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_075038-woodmizer-bms250-wiring.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652793796)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_075050-woodmizer-bms250-wiring.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652794100)
I spent about 30 mins at this before heading out to work. A 16 gauge didn't work so I got a piece of 18 gauge. Backed the screw out far enough that it would click, as you can see by the position of the screw in the photo above. Tried to fit in the factory wire, no go. So I screwed down to flatten the 18 gauge in the slot, backed it out all the way and tried fitting in the factory wire again. It will not fit. Either position, factory above or below the jumper.
Man!!!! My story is not much different. I ordered my BSM250 and setter last May. I got my 250 first. I ran down to Oakboro to pick it up. Brand new out of the box. I ran one blade through it and the advancer motor quit working right. It had no real speed control and a mind of its own. I spent countless hours on the phone with Jason from WM. We tried several things, but none worked. He sent parts out that I replaced. In the end, he agreed to send me a new sharpener. It came in and I went back to Oakboro to drop off the old one and pick up the new one.
I had been putting off getting bands sharpened because I knew my sharpener was coming. At this point, I was having to buy new bands to keep up with my orders. WM in Oakboro is 3 months behind on sharping bands.
When I got home with the new sharpener, I unboxed it. It looked completely the same. I started putting the machine together and poured the oil into the pan only to realize the pan had an uncompleted weld and oil was leaking out. At this point, I didn't care due to the fact that I was on my last 5 sharp bands and had over a 100 that needed sharpening. I put the first band in and started the machine. It stopped almost as quickly as it started. The light on the second button went out. I realized it had blown a fuse. Of course, it is not a fuse you can just get at the auto parts store. So I ordered it off amazon for next-day delivery. When the new fuses came in I replaced it and within 30 seconds it blew. I spent more countless hours on the phone with WM. They said it was a power issue in my shop causing the sharpener to malfunction. I assured them that it was not a power issue. Jason said they could send an electrician out to test my power but if it turned out to be a power supply issue I would be responsible for the electrician bill. I strongly encouraged this because I am confident it was not an issue with my power. When I did, he kinda backed out of that.
I reminded him that the first issue was with a 12-volt control and this issue is a 110 problem. Jason agreed to send a new pan and a replacement grinder motor that is on backorder with no end in sight. He did send me a box of bands at no charge. The problem with that is I will go through them in a week. I did get the replacement pan in and installed it. I have been trying to sharpen bands by replacing the fuse about every 5 minutes. Until...... the oil pump stopped!!!
I called WM back and spoke to Doug. He sent me a new pump that I just got this week. I installed the new pump and fuse and started to sharpen a band when it stopped. Fuse is good and I still have no power. I'm at a complete loss. I am a diehard WM man but I have never been so disappointed in a product. How do you get 2 machines back to back with different issues? How did any of these get through quality control? I too think I am going to ask for a full refund. The only problem is what do I do for sharp blades at this point?
Also to be noted is the setter came in. It appears to be working properly.
Whoever is building these for them obviously has no quality control and Woodmizer does not either. With the number of issues reported here on this forum, it's obvious Woodmizer turned a blind eye and kept shipping them. Once quality issues are reported on an item from an outside vendor, it's pretty much standard procedure to flag all incoming shipments and test. You continue doing this until the vendor demonstrates they have the issue corrected.
Quote from: newhollandnut on May 17, 2022, 11:00:00 AM
Man!!!! My story is not much different. ...
@newhollandnut (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=8127) is the board in your bms250mu a Sobanski board or an Elektryk board?
Does yours have the jumper wires we have been discussing?
Does your machine have the green/yellow wire going into the right side
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220516_123403-woodmizer-bms250-secondmachine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652715559)
or the left side of that transformer?
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220516_123355-woodmizer-bms250-goodmachine.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652715559)
Ok, so I discovered something after looking over the pictures by @gmmills (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=973) The terminal block on his circuit board was a different colour from mine. It got me thinking about the Sobanski board and the Elektryk boards. Different coloured terminal blocks, may indicate different sizes?
Test time. I've been trying to fit a jumper wire in the Elektryk board. I have a spare Sobanski board so let's see if it fits on that one.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_125439-woodmizer-bms250-sobanski-elektryk-board-differences.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652803217)
Sure enough, the jumper wire fits in the terminal block of the Sobanski board. I am going to swap out this boards this afternoon (again) and we will see what happens.
FWIW, this is the test report that came with this second machine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_125036-woodmizer-bms250-test-report.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652803218)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_125000-woodmizer-bms25-sidepanel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652803219)
So just wondering out loud here. Poland has an electric grid that runs on 50Hz, here in the states we are at 60Hz. Can we tell if the components in these control units are set up for 50 or 60 Hz?
The box in the last pis says 50/60 hz. Steve
A small update. I swapped out the circuit boards and put the Sobanski board back in place, with the jumpers 5 to 3 and 6 to 4.
It all started up. I shut it down and installed a blade. It was doing good for 30 seconds and then the P2 switch shut off and will not come back on. Meaning nothing works, motor, pump or advancer. I ran video while doing this so I am in the midst of uploading that to youtube. I put a link on in a bit.
Here is the video. If it matters, I was just started to increase the advancer speed when it all stopped working.
20220517 Woodmizer BMS250MU electrical issue - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeOsWaXFJhk)
With jumpers in place, @MattM (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=57725) I ran those voltage tests again just out of curiosity. Different readings this time outlined in bold below.
Power (M1) on.
M2 switch will not come on as the machine is still in the same state as in the video I posted a few minutes ago.
Results:
Put one lead on 3 and one on 4, you should have 100-120 volts... reads 120-121V.
Put one on M2 Brown wire and one on M2 Blue wire should be 100-120v... reads 0V.
Put one test lead on 3 and one on M2 Blue... reads 121V
Put one lead on 4 the other on M2 Brown... reads 0V.
Quote from: jimbarry on May 17, 2022, 12:03:07 PM
FWIW, this is the test report that came with this second machine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_125036-woodmizer-bms250-test-report.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652803218)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220517_125000-woodmizer-bms25-sidepanel.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652803219)
Looking at the report, all it appears to be is a verification that the units internal grounding system is working. In the US we call it a "high pot" test. There is no mention of actually testing the functions of the machine.
By the time you guys get things figured out your going to be a part of Woodmizer engineering team 😂
Unfortunately I learned about high pot tests the hard way when an item we were manufacturing was causing the machine to fail the test. When a small solenoid valve coil was de-energized, it put a transient voltage spike back into the system which caused damage to other more delicate parts of the circuit.
Another little update from this evening.
20220517 Woodmizer BMS250MU more electrical issue - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwwj77AAYdU)
The second light not going on is consistent with what happens when the magnet you put on the blade is in front of the sensor. That sensor is just a metal detector, and can shut the machine off if the blade approaches too closely which happens once in a while.
By no means am I assuming that this is your problem but if you haven't ruled it out it might contribute at times to the machine cutting out.
Also the machine I'm seeing in your hands is not the same as mine even though mine is the 110 V MU variant. The switches are different.
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on May 17, 2022, 06:16:22 PM
Also the machine I'm seeing in your hands is not the same as mine even though mine is the 110 V MU variant. The switches are different.
Your's look like this? This was the first one we bought in 2018. The new ones are like the one's in the videos I have be presenting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180812-blade_forward_motor_will_not_work.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652829171)
The issue you are having now is indicative, as Terrifictimberllc stated previously, of the shut off sensor being tripped. Get the blade out of machine and then try again. If all works properly, the blade is tripping sensor. Adjust the sensor further away from blade.
The whining you are hearing is coming from advance motor. this is normal.
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on May 17, 2022, 06:15:31 PM
The second light not going on is consistent with what happens when the magnet you put on the blade is in front of the sensor. That sensor is just a metal detector, and can shut the machine off if the blade approaches too closely which happens once in a while.
By no means am I assuming that this is your problem but if you haven't ruled it out it might contribute at times to the machine cutting out.
I think you have found the problem here @terrifictimbersllc (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11495) . It seems the sensor for the stopping of the machine is not quite right. I pulled out on the blade a little bit and the switches come on and I started the machine, it went for about 30 teeth then stopped. I pulled out on the blade again a bit and held it out, turned on the switches and proceeded to continue sharpening again. I let go of the blade and it sharpened a couple teeth and stopped again. Did that a couple times on that blade. Late here now, so tomorrow I will adjust that sensor back a little bit.
This might be the end of this nightmare.
@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) that's great news! Just out of curiosity was the machine half working in that video with or without the jumpers?
Quote from: jimbarry on May 17, 2022, 07:13:02 PM
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on May 17, 2022, 06:16:22 PM
Also the machine I'm seeing in your hands is not the same as mine even though mine is the 110 V MU variant. The switches are different.
Your's look like this? This was the first one we bought in 2018. The new ones are like the one's in the videos I have be presenting.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20180812-blade_forward_motor_will_not_work.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652829171)
Looks like mine, yes, green and red switch buttons.
Quote from: MattM on May 18, 2022, 01:50:25 AM
@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) that's great news! Just out of curiosity was the machine half working in that video with or without the jumpers?
Jumpers in a Sobanski board by that time.
Quote from: terrifictimbersllc on May 18, 2022, 04:03:05 AM
Looks like mine, yes, green and red switch buttons.
Right, that's the older design. Our BMS250MU from 2018 looks like that. The newer ones from 2021 onward will look like this one in the video. About the same functions but the POT1 switch (blade advancer rotatory dial) behaves a lot different. It's rotary dial is smaller, a lot more effort required to turn it and the speed is greatly reduced. On the older model if you accidentally happened to brush the cuff of your shirt or coat on that dial and sent it rotating too fast, well, it was not a good thing to do. On the old model, the quickest I would set the blade advancer was about 2.5. I always wondered why it had speed faster than 3. So this part of the redesign I see as an improvement. On the new machine, the blade advancer at full speed is only about the rate of 2.5 or so from the older model. The motor for the blade advancer
may have some additional torque upon initial observation. It seemed last evening that on slower motion the blade advancer was more capable of pushing the blade through. Down side is it makes a higher pitch whining noise at about the midway speeds. Doesn't affect me much because the tinnitus in my ears is a symphony of fire alarms.
Now, it's time to hone in @Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) machine problem.
That 5A glass fuse in the F3 position, on our older BMS250MU I had to replace the regular fuse that was filled with silicia sand. That stopped the fuse from constantly blowing. The new machine has the regular glass 5A fuse, we'll see how long that lasts.
If you have a blade in the machine, take it out. Then try to start up the machine. If it all works, then it's the magnetic shut off that needs to be adjusted because when a blade is in place, the sensor is too close to the blade causing it to turn off the machine.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/screenshot-magneticshutoff_copy.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652867032)
Also, if a blade is installed, a bend in the blade that brings it closer to the sensor or if the right side blade guide well is not in its proper position, will also trigger the sensor to shut things off.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/screenshot-Fig2_6.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1652867276)
What is the brand name of the circuit board on your machine @Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) ?
@Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) somehow I missed the posts where you said that you were having issues with your machine. I have a pretty busy day today but later tonight I'll try to give it some thought. That's it you don't have it figured out already :)
The sensor in mine has a little LED on it to indicate it is working. Does yours not have that? When you get a chance I'd like to know what was the final answer?
Missing or Not Jumpers?
Wrong fuse?
Adjust Sensor?
Else?
On my machine that sensor will not stop the band advance and I need to keep the second relay manually in the trip position or nothing will work. WM chalked it up to "something in those relays" that they can't get any longer. Sure would like to figure out what the fix is.
Great information! This may lead to some answers for me. I will do some tests this afternoon and report back. I will also get some pictures of my circuit board and provide those. I'm still not sure what the sensor would have to do with the fuse blowing all the time.
Quote from: YellowHammer on May 18, 2022, 07:50:43 AMThe sensor in mine has a little LED on it to indicate it is working. Does yours not have that? When you get a chance I'd like to know what was the final answer?
Missing or Not Jumpers?
Wrong fuse?
Adjust Sensor?
Else?
For the 2021 model I have, it was the missing jumpers
and the shut-off sensor being set too close. And yes, there is a LED that lights up in behind the shut off sensor. For the 2018 model it was the 5A fuse in the F3 position that I changed to a silica sand fuse.
Quote from: Southside on May 18, 2022, 07:54:32 AM
On my machine that sensor will not stop the band advance and I need to keep the second relay manually in the trip position or nothing will work. WM chalked it up to "something in those relays" that they can't get any longer. Sure would like to figure out what the fix is.
Have you checked the shut-off sensor is not set too far back?
Quote from: newhollandnut on May 18, 2022, 08:24:49 AM
Great information! This may lead to some answers for me. I will do some tests this afternoon and report back. I will also get some pictures of my circuit board and provide those. I'm still not sure what the sensor would have to do with the fuse blowing all the time.
The shut off sensor issue and F3 fuse blowing issue might be unrelated.
Yes, I can put the magnet right against it and it won't change anything. Given the moisture issue mentioned earlier I wonder if it might not be the sensor.
Totally grasping at straws here and maybe just a coincidence, but a few posts back I commented about an earlier experience I had with transient voltage spikes causing issues in a machine.
The issue was that the voltage spikes took out the contacts in a proximity switch. That appears to be exactly what that sensor is. A proximity switch.
Is there a solenoid coil in the system? When coils de-energize, they can put voltage spikes into the system. Kind of like electrical inertia. These spikes are not anything you or I could measure with a typical VOM. The fix was to install a diode around the switch.
If this is the issue, its something the electrical engineers at WM need to look into.
I always had my grinder plugged into a surg strip to try and avoid any electrical issues during lightning storms.
Jim Rogers
My sensor is good, the blade advance is the only thing that is working. I spoke with a WM engineer this morning and have parts on the way. Hopefully they'll make a difference. Currently I have an Elektrik board. Here's one to make you scratch your head. At neutral and L1 I have 122v but at L1 and the ground bus in the bottom of the box I have 163v
What does ground to neutral read on the outlet? I have seen grounds hot before from bleed.
Ah, never thought to check that , but have 46v ac from neutral to ground.
@Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396)
Please recheck the neutral to ground voltage at your main breaker box.
If you have any voltage there is a serious problem with the bonding and you need to call your power company and get it fixed ASAP.
If it is ok there you have a serious problem with your wiring and it needs to be repaired ASAP
I tend to be overly cautious on electrical safety issues, I hate being shocked.
Quote from: Machinebuilder on May 19, 2022, 10:47:00 AM
@Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396)
Please recheck the neutral to ground voltage at your main breaker box.
If you have any voltage there is a serious problem with the bonding and you need to call your power company and get it fixed ASAP.
If it is ok there you have a serious problem with your wiring and it needs to be repaired ASAP
I tend to be overly cautious on electrical safety issues, I hate being shocked.
Checked at the outlet and several others and there is no voltage between ground and neutral at the outlets.
Received a new board today, but I got home late and wasn't able to install it. Also, I don't have any 5a fuses. Will update after I get fuses and have a chance to install the new board.
I have an idea for those of you that are having problems.. maybe you should request that Woodmizer sharpens your blades for free including shipping until they can fix these issues that your having with your sharpeners!
I was worried about this kind of stuff with Covid and how it would affect quality and reliability .. I am lucky and was able to get my sharpener a few months before covid hit and then within 4 months of Covid I picked up my setter. its terrible dealing with these issues.
sounds like the sensor that is supposed to detect the magnets on the bands is the issue.. hope that helps alot of people out!
Quote from: Durf700 on May 21, 2022, 11:56:21 AM
I have an idea for those of you that are having problems.. maybe you should request that Woodmizer sharpens your blades for free including shipping until they can fix these issues that your having with your sharpeners!
I was worried about this kind of stuff with Covid and how it would affect quality and reliability .. I am lucky and was able to get my sharpener a few months before covid hit and then within 4 months of Covid I picked up my setter. its terrible dealing with these issues.
sounds like the sensor that is supposed to detect the magnets on the bands is the issue.. hope that helps alot of people out!
Not just magnets, it will detect metal if there' s a bend in the blade.
Got the new board on Thursday, but didn't have time to mess with it until this morning. Installed the new board and the jumpers. Everything is up an running now. Now it's just a matter of getting past the learning curve.
@Crossroads (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=33396) when you get one figured out, you will want two. :)
https://youtu.be/YgYYHbgQIXA (https://youtu.be/YgYYHbgQIXA)
Well I am truly heartened that this community came together and worked it out to resolve the dead machine issues. I do hope WM is passing these problems and fixes back to the builder to make them go away.
I am still concerned about that transient voltage showing up. This points to a possible design issue where some diodes should have been included in the circuit to avoid leakage, it may work 'most of the time' and in 'most conditions' but then.....
So it came down to the fuse value and type, the jumpers, and then messing with the proximity switch.
SS, it sounds like you still have issues. Any chance WM can send you an updated board? I hate to see new equipment not running right. It should never happen.
One thing is for certain, this thread has become the de-facto source for debugging these issues on this machine.
Jim, that sounds like happy music in your shop. :)
"pin to the top" worthy maybe.
Crossroads Glad you are up and running. The boards that are in question are easily identified. The orientation of fuse position on board is the factor. The problem boards will have the fuse holder in the F4 position and no connection, buss bar, F3 position. F3 pump circuit completely open. Also no jumper wires to 110V and 110VO terminals. The right boards will have fuse holder across F3 and a buss bar, fusible link, across F4. two separate circuits. If WM sends you the proper board as a replacement the jumper wires need to be added to power pump circuit. The harness in machine with problem board will not have these wires.
I have a theory that the problem board in these newest units is designated for installation in European units. 220volts - 50 HZ. The problem board is using one circuit to power grinding motor and oil pump. European models will have 220 grinding motors and pumps. I need to confirm pump voltage. But stands to reason considering European line voltage is 220V. Wire this board to 110V and the fuse is overloaded. 110v motors and pumps will draw twice the amps to operate, let alone start up amp draw. The proper board's separate circuits for pump and motor are individually protected.
Lol, I'm only sharpening for myself, hopefully 1 will be sufficient
Quote from: Crossroads on May 22, 2022, 11:38:12 AM
Lol, I'm only sharpening for myself, hopefully 1 will be sufficient
I thought that too. :)
Here's what I did for lighting. Battery operated magnetic LED bars on the out feed side. Just the right angle to catch the tooth tips to see if they give off any reflection. Any of that and they have to go through again.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220522_135930-sharpening-bms250mu-led-lighting.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653240428)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220522_135859-sharpening-bms250mu-led-lighting.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653240428)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220522_135850-sharpening-bms250mu-led-lighting.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1653240429)
Get the sharpener and setter both going at once, then make a little mistake.
You don't need 2 sharpeners to get into a heap of trouble.
A fellow from New Brunswick called me over the weekend. He bought a BMS250MU and a BMT250. Trouble out of the box. He's has many years experience of sharpening saw blades for large saw mills and his retirement shop is set up for hand saw filing, and carbide circular saw sharpening.
For the sharpener, all three functions work but it would stop and start. Do a few teeth then stop. Or do half a blade and stop. Over the phone we narrowed it down to the proximity switch. Best way to put it, is that it is way too sensitive. He tried adjusting it all the way back and didn't help. So he took it off its mount and set it aside within the machine. Quickly figured out it was basically laying there on the steel base of the unit next to its mount, triggering it. He wrapped the sensor with a small cloth and bingo. It started up and he proceeded to sharpen an entire blade but since the proximity switch is not a part of the process he has to watch each blade as it comes around. I told him to get the sensor back on its mount, keep it far back from the blade passing by it and put a cloth over it, then see if the machine will sharpen a blade. If it does, leave it like that and use the magnet so that when the magnet comes around it will shut off the cycle for him.
Next up the setter. He said that the mechanism that sets the outside tooth (the one on the left side when facing the machine) was not lined up correctly for 7/8" tooth spaced blades. I told him the setter likely was not set up for 7/8", probably some other one like 3/4". I explained to him about how the left mechanism can be moved closer or further away for different blade tooth spacing.
Hopefully he's good to go. IMHO, yet another example of quality testing failing at the factory level.
@JimBarry, how are you wiping the excess oil off the band as it exits the sharpener cover? My bands always have some oil dripping off them the they exit, and yours look clean. I've tried various things to wipe the oil off as it exits, but only with varied success.
Quote from: YellowHammer on June 01, 2022, 07:08:19 AM
@JimBarry, how are you wiping the excess oil off the band as it exits the sharpener cover? My bands always have some oil dripping off them the they exit, and yours look clean. I've tried various things to wipe the oil off as it exits, but only with varied success.
The cards are still in place, though worn. I've cut out plastic pieces from a 5 gal bucket and it does the same. What does work well are bristle brushes, like I did here.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220601_102214-woodmizer-bms250-brushes.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654090210)
There's still mineral oil on the blades so there's a bucket under each arm where the blade makes contact.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220601_102236-woodmzier-bms250-buckets.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654090210)
When a blade is done I take it out of the clamps and use two scrap pieces of foam to "squeegee" the oil off. Foam pad on each side of blade held in my right hand between thumb and next two fingers, hand over the top of the blade, while the left hand pulls the blade through. Oil drips down to that little screen dirt trap I have there. You'd be surprised how much oil comes off. Dirty oil too. And that is what that little screen tray with scrap piece of cloth is for. To "filter" that dirty oil and it drips through and back into the pan.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220601_102321-woodmizer-bms250-squeegee.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654090211)
Other things I've done is add a plastic curtain to the infeed port
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220601_103007-woodmizer-bms250-infeed-pport.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654090209)
which is a temp solution, while the outfeed port is like this, a piece of luan with a strong magnet.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20220601_103017-woodmizer-bms250mu-outfeed-port.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654090209)
When the cover goes up and down the magnet is strong enough to keep it in place so it drops right back over the next blade. The purpose of all this is to lessen the spitting of oil that occurs. Eventually I am going to purchase four 4" wide paint brushes and screw them to the inside of the ports to serve the same purpose.
One other thing I am going to try is to re-configure the 4" inline fan I have on top to recycle the air back into the cabinet. Close up all the gaps and then get a short piece of flex hose to go from the fan to one of those rectangular shape openings in the base. I figure the centrifugal force of the fan should be sufficient to keep the mist contained under the canopy.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20037/20210628-bms250-sharpening-fan.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1654091381)
That cone filter did ok, but now I have a cloth draped over the filter to reduce the mist some more, as it was still making its way into the shop. Original set up was like this,
20210628 sharpening fan for Wood-mizer BMS250S CBN sharpening system - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7BC2O7o_gI)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7BC2O7o_gI)
I bought a
BMS250 back in May. I put it together when it arrived, and the motor burned up on my second sharpening. I called and they sent me a new motor. This one burned up. I'm frustrated by now, but they are still trying to resolve my problem. They sent me a 3rd motor and before I ran it very long I kept feeling of it to see if it's getting hot. And sure enough it was. So back on the phone and they sent me out a new circuit board. Well, this didn't work either and I demanded a new machine. It took some emailing and demanding but they sent me another one and paid for the return of the one I had. It's been over 103 degrees here in Texas so I haven't wanted to get out in my barn and set up the new one but today it was tolerable temps this morning so I went out to the barn and assembled the 250. I turned it on and let it cycle for a few minutes with motor running and sure enough the motor got hot. I'm at a loss of what to do. I don't really want to sharpen a blade and the motor completely burn up again or is it normal for the sharpening motor to get hot. So hot it's uncomfortable to touch. Any opinions before I contact WM again?
@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) Did Woodmizer ever respond. What if anything did they offer you?? Definitely seems like they let you down. They should have had answers or had it shipped back right away. You should not have had to go through all of that.
I would have thought that the motor would be thermally protected to prevent burnout.
I wonder how good your power supply is? A voltage drop may cause a motor to run hot, perhaps checking the voltage and wire size for length of run also extension cord size if using one.
Or it could just be too dang hot to get proper cooling for that motor.
Groschopp Tech Tips | Troubleshooting an Overheating Motor - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L00ZYpK-Cg&t=183s)
Quote from: johrich on August 09, 2023, 11:34:52 AM
I bought a
BMS250 back in May. ... Any opinions before I contact WM again?
Have you been on the phone yet and spoken to the WM troubleshooting technicians in their Electrical Division? Two guys there I know of who, over the phone, should be able to deduce the issue. Make sure you have a voltmeter handy.
The cbn wheel motor does get hot. The one's on mine do for sure. Have you checked to see if the cooling fan on the end of the motor is spinning? Without that fan, no matter if everything else is ok, the motor will get too hot.
Quote from: Brad_bb on August 09, 2023, 12:06:20 PM
@jimbarry (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10037) Did Woodmizer ever respond. What if anything did they offer you?? Definitely seems like they let you down. They should have had answers or had it shipped back right away. You should not have had to go through all of that.
No, they didn't. Left to figure out most of it myself. They offered nothing other than replacement boards at the time. The local rep offered a cbn wheel for the inconvenience. 'Should' have is certainly subjective. I've had various other issues ( https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=122508 https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=121834 https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=111227 ). Electrical solved over the phone with the electrical tech's at WM USA.