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new WM BMS250MU, won't operate (my issue solved, others still have problems)

Started by jimbarry, April 26, 2022, 06:51:00 AM

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jimbarry

We had our second sharpener arrive in late February 2022. It's still not working. It's been a bit of a process trying to get the different WM decision makers to get on the same page. Yesterday I did a video to summarize. Maybe the collective experience of this forum can agree or disagree or offer another suggestion to get this machine working.

20220425 Woodmizer BMS250MU circuitry issue - YouTube

Southside

I have had gremlins in my machine too, no clear answer on what is causing it but those relays are part of the issue for sure.  I will open the hood up and see what I rigged to make it work but would love to know what the solution is. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

YellowHammer

I have not used the second type of relay, but the others, including the ones in my machine, have a manual override position.

So I had much the same problem and "they" were not helpful figuring it out, and it wasn't the circuit board, it was the relay.  

So I've not used the one with the two LED's, but basically, relays of this style can be used to troubleshoot the problem.

First, the relays have a manual over ride position, as well as an internal circuit breaker.  Basically a two function relay.  So when the lever is up in the normal position, the circuit breaker is set and the really will function normally.  If the internal breaker is tripped, the lever should be rotated and released, or pushed in and rotated, or ? depending on the make of the relay, and the internal relay circuit breaker will reset.  If the lever is rotated full down and held (again, depending on the relay), the relay will be in forced closed contact mode, and the circuit will be closed forcibly.  This applies to the relays in mine, which look like the ones you have with only one set of LEDs, however, I would think? they all work basically the same.  If you go on the web, you will be able to upload the spec sheet of that relay online from the relay manufacturer, and it will tell you all it's functions and capabilities.

So the first thing is rotate the lever or otherwise activate and hold the manual override position, then the contacts will be closed and if there is power to the input side of the contacts, then power will cross the contacts and whatever is on the output side of the contacts will operate immediately.  When you release the lever the output device will stop.  This will tell you if the circuit board is applying input power to the relay input contacts.

If that doesn't work, pull the relay and use a DVM to check to see if the contacts are actually closing in the manual override position by checking Ohms on the relay itself.  There should be a little circuit diagram on the relay, and also there will be one on the spec sheet.  If not showing closed contact in the over ride position, and the internal breaker has been reset, then the relay is bad.

If the internal breaker can't be reset using the lever, the the relay is burned out and vernally means too much power was applied from the load on whatever it was supposed to operate.

If the relay is bad, or they sometimes die, or they are the wrong ampacity and were burned out (which is bad), or whayever, new relays cost $15 on Amazon.

If the output deceive turns on when the lever in the relay in is in the manual override or bypass position, then it means that the trigger voltage to the relay isn't getting to it.  That may be what the second LED on the later version relays is indicating, I don't know, I haven't used them.  I'd have to see the spec sheet.  So if the trigger is not there, which is what is used to command the relay contacts to close, then that needs to be tracked down and it's not the relay's fault, the trigger signal is simply not getting to it and commanding it to close.  At that point look at the schematic for the relay and use a DVM to check to see if there is actually a trigger signal on the trigger terminals and if it is the correct voltage.  This is very similar to how you'd diagnose a starter issue on a vehicle.  Is the starter getting voltage from the battery, and is the starter relay getting a trigger signal from the ignition key? 

Anyway, this would let you know if the board is sending correct signal to the relay as it needs both power to the input contacts, and also would need a trigger signal to actually fire and close the contacts.  Or it will tell you if the relay itself is the problem.    

It's interesting to me that they are sending you multiple versions of circuit boards, I'm curious, have they sent you one that is the same version and configuration as the sharpener that works?  I would get them to send me a couple relays, as well, or get the spec sheet online and make sure they are functioning correctly.

I hope this helps a little.  





YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

jimbarry

Quote from: YellowHammer on April 26, 2022, 08:11:45 AMI'm curious, have they sent you one that is the same version and configuration as the sharpener that works?


A lot of what you said I'm sure is helpful but honestly it's a bit beyond my comprehension.  The first board they sent was like the board in our first machine. Only difference was I was still using the 'finder' brand relays. The board didn't solve the issue. I asked for new relays and they sent another board, which is now in the machine. Still doesn't work.
This is a brand new machine, zero hours on it. It didn't work out of the box. So, WM needs to send me enough parts to fix this or its going to be crated and sent back.

MattM

Have you tried switching out the relays with the ones in the working machine to see if the relay is the problem. Also have you checked all the connections? Could be that when you switched out the board a pump wire got installed in the wrong place. 
LT35HDG25

scsmith42

When I bought my BMS 250 a couple of years ago, it too did not work right out of the box.  Woodmizer's techs were great to work with, and after trying out replacement relays, switches, etc I started tracing down each wire from end to end.

I discovered that whomever wired it swapped two wires in one of the relay sockets.  Never could figure out how is passed their factory testing.

Woodmizer sent a replacement machine, and we shipped the old one back.

Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

jimbarry

Quote from: Irecraera on April 26, 2022, 12:50:36 PM
Have you tried switching out the relays with the ones in the working machine to see if the relay is the problem. Also have you checked all the connections? Could be that when you switched out the board a pump wire got installed in the wrong place.
I will not switch out the relays from our working machine just in case Murphy's Law decides to visit. The machine needs to be running every day. Pump wires, all wires for that matter are in their correct places and secure.

Mossy Chariot

WM obviously has some issues with their BMS250 sharpeners.  Mine did not work but about 15 seconds after taking it out of the box about a year ago.  It has the same relays that your "non-working" unit has.  Initially it seemed like the relay on the right was not working so WM sent me another.  It did the same thing.  I could manually engage the relay by pushing and holding the blue lever in and everything would work except the magnetic sensor that is suppose to shut the system off when the magnet is in proximity of sensor.  I traced the leads from the sensor and checked continuity with and without the magnet near and it was not working so it jumped the sensor connections to insure continuity and the relay would work.  This tells me the circuit that activates the relay only does so when specific components make a complete circuit (like the shut of sensor and maybe the cutting oil pump???).  I will look at my unit tomorrow and see if the cutting oil pump is wired in a similar manner to the shut of sensor.  If it is, it may be your pump and not the relay.  Has the oil pump on this unit ever come on?
Tony B
LT35HD, Riehl Edger, Woodmaster 725 Planer/Molder, Nyle 53 Drying Kiln, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, T750 Bobcat, E50 Excavator, Kubota 3450, Wallenstein Skidding Winch, Vermeer BC1250 Chipper, Stihl 250 & 460, Can-Am Defender

jimbarry

Quote from: Mossy Chariot on April 26, 2022, 04:46:42 PMHas the oil pump on this unit ever come on?
No. I took off the hose and the brass connector, even the black tray under the pump housing. Just to see if there was a blockage somewhere along the way. 

gmmills

  Jim, I think we can solve your issue. Try not focusing on the relays. They are functioning properly if all other components, grinder motor and advance motor are powering up. Focus on terminal connections on left side of circuit board. You have two terminals that have no wires attached. They are labeled as 110V and 110VO. These terminals are the ground and 110 VAC power source for the oil pump only. No wires, no power to pump. The wires that are needed are only short jumper wires. One short jumper wire runs from the 230V terminal to the 110V terminal and the other jumper from 230VO terminal to the 110VO terminal. The 230V and 230VO screw terminals have two wires ends connected to each. Just look closely at your older functioning sharpener's circuit board it will become clear what I am describing.  The machine was not wired properly by WM.

As long as there are no revision schematics sent with your replacement boards, my advice is sound.  

     
Custom sawing full-time since 2000. 
WM LT70D62 Remote with Accuset
Sawing since 1995

jimbarry

Quote from: gmmills on April 26, 2022, 09:12:33 PM
  ...You have two terminals that have no wires attached. They are labeled as 110V and 110VO. These terminals are the ground and 110 VAC power source for the oil pump only. No wires, no power to pump. The wires that are needed are only short jumper wires. ...

   
You might be on to something here. 
This board is on the machine that is not working.



 
This board is on the machine that is working.


 

ladylake

 

It's amazing how complicated this sharpener is, my Wright  has 2 toggle switches m one for each motor.  Steve
Timberking B20  18000  hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Suffolk  setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Old Greenhorn

This is discouraging. It appears that GMMills has found it though.
 WM has one of the best reputations in the business for the equipment they sell and they make very good stuff, this is not a 'cheap' unit. Even the best manufacturer can have quality excursions (meaning a defect that actually gets shipped to an end user and not caught when built), but these should be very rare. There appears to be no fundamental quality control on these units and no testing. Any decent builder will have simple standard test to ensure that the product functions as built. At least plug the thing in and flip all the switches.
 I worked in manufacturing my whole life building and shipping everything from fighter jet hydraulic valves and controls to large commercial oil burners, microwave components, tools, machines, semi-conductor processing equipment, diesel hydraulic power units and much more. Startup failure in the customers hands is always worst case and also the easiest to avoid. It is also the type of failure that will kill one's reputation quickest.
 Given all that, I am wondering if WM is even making these or they are built by a sub in another plant with a different quality team? Even a one-off failure can happen to almost anyone on rare occasions, but a failure such as this over multiple machines is hard to fathom from a company I have so much respect for.
 When these things happened at places I worked, even just one failure, I was often the one charged with following the process back, finding where the defect was inserted, and re-engineering the process so that it couldn't happen again. But in order for that to happen, the management team has to be aware of these issues and care enough to get it fixed. I wonder if this is a sign of some 'slippage' in that area.
 WM is a good company and reading all this is not going to change my opinion of them in that regard. But I'd be lying if I didn't admit that it will make me more cautious.

 Jim, sorry you are going through this, especially over several months as apparently others have. Were it me I would be hopping mad and on the phone every day. I looked in the manual for this machine and note that they include no schematic which just makes it even harder to find and fix. If you don't have skills like GMMills, you are up the creek. That ain't right.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Southside

The sharpeners and setters are made in Poland.  Not sure what the current geo-political situations may have on QC.
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Old Greenhorn

Well SS, it does complicate things given the distance, time, and language differences. In the year before I retired I had a long running troubleshooting/quality issue I worked on with an Italian manufacturer working through a French broker. Scheduling phone calls and getting folks in the conference that could interpret technical language clearly was quite the challenge. Complicate that with the issues of proprietary information and it gets nearly impossible if all parties don't keep in mind that they are all trying to make money together. In that case the bottom line came down to the actual manufacturing facility not understanding the difference between NPT and NPTF threads and how different the inspection requirements were. I finally got them copies of the standards and we sent them a set of the proper gages which they could not find in Europe. We were at the point of developing a local supplier for our needs when they finally came around and began supplying good, or at least acceptable product. Failure of a 24' 8,000 working PSI hose can be very distracting and our customers were getting ticked off. We tested every hose assembly before it went out to 15,000psi, but we would still get the occasional field failure. (Some customers also believe they should be able to drag hydraulic tools around by the hoses and run them over (the hoses and fittings) with loaders.) ;D
 These type issues fall to the quality management folks to get into it with the supplier and make it right. This is seldom an easy thing, but if a company wants to maintain credibility with their customers, they need to do something.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

dougtrr2

Can't add anything to the specific issue with your sharpener.  But trying to troubleshoot a problem over the phone is difficult.  You don't know the skill or experience level of the person you are talking with.  There could be something very obvious (like a missing jumper) that a tech would notice if he was there.

When I was in the Air Force I was trying to troubleshoot an electrical problem over the phone.  The readings the technician on site was giving me just didn't make sense.  As I was pondering the schematic the tech asked if this was going to take much longer.  Curious, I asked why.  He said it was because his thumb hurt.  I asked, "What do you mean your thumb hurts?"  He said "Every time you tell me to make a reading, I have to hold the circuit breaker in to keep it from tripping".  Over thirty minutes of troubleshooting with a trained tech and he didn't think it was important to tell me the breaker was tripping!!

Hang in there, you will get this fixed.

Doug in SW IA

Old Greenhorn

Doug, truer words were never spoken! Very frustrating working over the phone with someone not used to it.
 Your story reminded me of when I left the shop I was working as a CNC foreman (also doing all the repairs) for a 3 week trip to Norway in '93. When I got back, one of my newer machines was torn down to bits, every cover, guard, and safety taken off and the machine, I was told, was dead in the water. The guy working on it, who was always very vocal that he thought they paid me too much for simple machine fixes, had been trying to fix the machine for 2 weeks. Production was way behind. I asked what the machine did and if he had called the manufacturer's tech support. Between streams of cuss words he said that machine was garbage and that the guy he called for help didn't know what he was doing. He got madder as he talked and even madder when I chuckled at him. I was pretty sure what was wrong. So I called my buddy at the manufacturer and he started to rip ME a new one. He said if we ever let that guy call him again he would end our friendly relationship. He said "That guy doesn't listen very well." I asked what he had checked and what he thought. He was pretty sure that it was a faulty proximity safety switch. I thought the same also, but had not yet looked at it. I wanted to hear the story first. I was enjoying this whole thing because it clearly showed that my "simple repairs' were only simple if you knew what you were doing. So I went back out to the shop, looked at the switch in question and saw a steel chip stuck to the front, causing a false signal. I wiped the switch off with my finger and told the guy to start the machine up. Of course he told me "I already checked that ten times and that is not it!". I smiled and said, 'humor me'. Well he fired it up and it ran just fine.  :D :) He got even madder when I told him to put all the guards and covers back on himself as a lesson in paying attention. He said "you just got lucky is all". It took him all day to get that right. The next time he came to me when his machine broke down and asked for help, I asked him if he wanted one of my 'simple fixes' or if he preferred to take a week or two to tear it all apart first. :D ;D
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

Maine Miller

That's a great story. Simple case of not necessarily getting paid for what you DO, but for what you KNOW.

2 kinds of people.....ones that know quite a lot, and others who think they know it ALL

SawyerTed

I think some voltage readings on the terminals gmmills has identified would be a quick way to verify the switching for the pump - but where are the wires that should be terminated there?  I wonder if the pump switch is even wired or if there are loose wires somewhere - blown fuse would indicate an overcurrent/short circuit/unterminated wire shorting out?

On troubleshooting by phone and dealing with a marginally skilled troubleshooter, I share the following story.  My daughter called me few years ago telling me she was at one of the parts stores getting a battery replaced in her car.  The "clerk/technician" had shorted the connections some way and my daughter said there was a spark like a welding arc.  Her car had no instrument readings, no lights and would not start after the event.  I asked her to put me on the phone with the "clerk/technician".  When he came on the line, I asked him had he checked the fuse for the instrument cluster.  He had not.  I firmly suggested that he do so.  When my daughter came back on the line I told her she needed to make sure the fuse got checked.  On the second call from my daughter 45 minutes later, the "clerk" had put a call in to GM tech support thinking the alarm system had disabled the car.  I again suggested he check the fuse.  He did not.

Long story short, I ended up going to the auto parts store 45 minutes one way from my sawmill job.  I changed the fuse from the spare fuses I keep in my truck and that fixed the car.  The store manager, the district manager and I had a brief discussion regarding either the refund of my daughter's money OR the invoice for my time and expertise (sawmill rates for lost time, plus my rate for mechanical work/expertise and travel time).  They arranged a CASH reimbursement.  After I had the cash in hand, I told the managers and the "clerk/technician" that I did a Google search for the problem and knew what it was in less than 5 minutes.   :D :o :D 8)  

Always start troubleshooting with the simplest items first.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Durf700

can you order the relays online that are in the working machine?  probably wouldn't be bad to have a spare set? 

can you trace the 2 wires that are mentioned above to see where they go on the working sharpener ?  then go to non working sharpener and see where the wires are on it?

good luck.. that sucks! 


Durf700

I just google searched, you can get the relays online for $10.91 matching the numbers on the one I could read on post above.

I would order a pair..  heck, I think I might!


YellowHammer

Is the pump wired in at all?  Where is it wired?  Put a DVM on the where it is wired now and where it may need to be wired and check to see if power is present.

What is the voltage requirement labeled on the pump?  Does it match the terminals where it is supposed to be wired?

For the pump to be wired to the wrong terminals form the factory means the factory never actually turned it on...if true, that's a concerning issue.



YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

barbender

I agree on the, "simplest first" aspect of troubleshooting. That does get a little more difficult when you are working on something that is not right from the factory, or has been molested by someone else prior to your starting on it. As an example, I bought a firewood processor a couple years ago from an online auction. All I had seen were pictures, but the machine was basically new with only 35 hours on it. I had to drive 3 states away to pick it up, and didn't even start it until I got it home. Once I got it fired up, I found 2 strange problems. First, the saw would cut like crazy, get about 3/4 through the log, and just stop feeding. Engine not under load and the chain was spinning fine. I tried lots if things, I couldn't try another bar and chain becauseI had to order some. When I got them, I put a new chain on and immediately saw the problem- the chain on the machine was an .063,  404 chainsaw chain instead of the heavier .088 or whatever the actual harvester chain is. Problem #1 solved.

Problem #2 was the engine governor. It wanted to over-rev, by a lot! With only 35 hours on a 6 year old machine, I assumed some plugged jets. Pulled carb, it was perfectly clean🤔 I tried adjusting the max governed rpm, it wouldn't slow down. Long story short, I finally figured out someone had taken the original spring off the governor and replaced it with a hardware store one. Ordered a new spring, installed it and immediately had a perfect running engine🤦‍♂️I'm not sure what the moral of my story is, other than, never discount human stupidity and that hands that had no business touching a machine, may have been there.
Too many irons in the fire

Old Greenhorn

Ted, that's a great story which brings to mind another when the tables were reversed on me. Same shop as before but 15 years later in a new building. We had a high speed CNC 5 axis horizontal that was slamming around hard. I was unfamiliar with this machine, we picked it up used. I called the manufacturer and worked through troubleshooting until we proved that is was the hydraulic accumulator gone flat (no pressure in it). This machine moved in rapid at 1200 IPM and without the accumulator it sounded like a truck crash when it made a rapid move. So I ordered a new tank and when it arrived I put it in per their instructions and called them back and asked if the tank was charged. They told me it was. I found this hard to believe that they could ship a steel tank through regular UPS with a 2,000 PSI charge in it. I called back and asked them to confirm it was charged. They got annoyed and checked with engineering and called back to say it was charged.
 Still I was not comfortable and after a lot of arguing with my own management I got them to send in a tech to check all my work before we fired it up. ($1,200/day plus expenses) The guy comes in and tells me he never worked on one of those machines before. I said "well, you just need to check my work and make sure everything is good. I am worried about the charge in the tank." He complains all the while but does it, then says, 'OK lets fire it up'. So we do that and move it around a little. He says he wants to give it the acid test and I told him to wait until I check the back of the machine and make sure all tools are clear. So I have my head back there when I hear him say "Fire in the HOLE!" and I yank my head out just as the world explodes. He had thrown the machine into a full rapid move and when all that hydraulic fluid slammed into the UNCHARGED tank it hit HARD and ripped not only the tank mounts off the machine, it tore 4 steel hydraulic lines out of the nuts, bent a 36" cylinder to 90°, filled the air with oil and something punched a hole in the wall right where my head had been. Busted bolts all over. 
 I about killed the guy. He got mad at me and said I set him up. We called his boss and I told his boss this guy was no longer welcome in our plant, that he nearly killed me outright, and that we needed some fast help to get this fixed with a TRAINED tech. I was ranting at that point and it was about 9pm. I kicked the tech out, changed into dry clothes and went home. Now this was a global machine tool builder everybody has heard of. The next morning as I am trying to figure out where to start on this mess, I get a phone call from the builder. The guy identifies himself as the senior vice president of north American operations in charge of service. He wants to know what they can do to make this right. "First off" I said, "you can tell me what happened and how. I asked 3 different times if that tank was charged and each time YOUR people told me it was. How did THAT happen?" "Well" he said "they thought it was, but I went down and talked to the shipping department and they told me they can't ship a charged tank, it's not legal. We are changing all our documentation right now to fix that. What I want to know is what can we do for YOU?" So I said "well we need a lot of parts replaced now, cylinders, lines, another tank, etc. Then I am going have to do the repairs, rerun lines, put it back together. Then I need some help getting this tank charged. Can you get me all that, and how soon?" He says "yes, of course, all of that is being put together right now and will ship out today. I have also found our best guy and he will be available to you for any questions through the duration until this is running right. All that will be done. But my questions is: Is there anything we can do for YOU, anythiiiing at alllll you might need or even want?" I then realized he was trying to keep me from suing them, which I had no intention of doing since they apologized and took responsibility for the whole thing. And Yes, I got it fixed by myself, did the tank charge myself and tested the machine incrementally until full speeds were reached without any further issue.
 Anyway, that's a long way of saying that even if you ask the right questions, you may not get the right answer.

 Sorry for the long hi-jack, but I thought it might entertain whilst we all wait to see how Jim made out with those jumpers.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

barbender

I should also day, that while I have been subject to some dummy having messed up a machine first, I have also been the dummy that messed it up first😊
Too many irons in the fire

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