The Forestry Forum

For a while now, I've gotten more interested in low impact logging on smaller lots.  I was wondering if anyone out there has done any logging with skid steers?  I am especially interested in using the machine for harvesting.  Most of the work I am doing involves cutting low grade timber.  Dymax makes a nice looking professional tree shear for cutting and bunching trees up to 14" diameter.  I'm also wondering if I was to purchase a skid steer for this purpose, would it be better to use a rubber tracked machine in the woods or should I buy a wheeled machine and put steel tracks on it?  Any thoughts?  Thanks!

Welcome to the forum!
How large of a lot is a "smaller" lot to you?

Thanks, glad to be here.  I've actually been looking at this site for a year or so, but decided that I should register. 

      Well, for lot size I have a couple of jobs that are 30 acres or less.  We also own a farm with 240 wood acres that needs managing.  There are a lot of smaller spruce and firs and white pines that have grown so close together they are really tall, but most are 6 inches around and smaller.  I want to thin them out.  I have a small JD 440 C cable skidder that I'm trying to sell and would like to have a machine that I could use for the farm as well as the forest.  I have a tractor with a Farmi winch on it, but I'd like to have something to fell all those little trees too.  That's why I thought a tracked skid steer might be more efficient and versitile.  Plus it's hard to bale hay with the skidder.  I hate to sell it, but I just bought the tractor and I can't make both payments.

Welcome to the Forestry Forum, glad you signed up.
A tracked skid steer has considerably less psi than a wheeled skid steer of equal size with tracks over the wheel. I don't have the exact numbers, but it is significant. The tracked machine has bogey wheels along the entire length of each side of the machine to spread the weight, the track over wheels still places most of the weight on two points on each side.
Have you checked out the sponsor area to the left of your screen and looked at the Timberline shears? I personally don't know a thing about them but they must be good people with a good product if they appear next door. ;D

I use a skidsteer to sort logs and move them around the log yard.  It's great for this, and there are many attachments for other jobs, but I don't think it would work well for logging because it would be too rough riding and slow getting from one place to another on your property.  Dakota

Brad,

     That is a good point about bogie wheels spreading out the weight with a rubber tracked machine.  The part I was worried about is running over slash and the occasional rock with the rubber tracks.  I don't know how well they hold up compared to the steel.  Also, most of the land I'm going on is fairly easy going, but there are some hills and I didn't know if the rubber trackes could become slippery. Does anybody know how they handle going through the snow?  I'm looking at possibly an ASV RC100 or a Takeuchi TL 150.
      Yes, I did look at the link to the left for the Timberline shears.  I'm pretty much sold on the dymax shears because you have more control of the tree.  You can grab the tree, shear it, and move it around.  Shears like the timeberline are more for pruning, not for felling larger trees.

Skid steers are real handy around the farmyard, but not particularly good in the woods. Primary reason is not enough clearance for soft ground, stumps and rocks.

There actually was a Bobcat skid steer made specially with a shear head. It was a 900 series machine so it was a huge skid steer. Bobcat later sold that large machine to another company and they are no longer made, nor do they make a machine larger than the 800 series. I did find a picture of one and they were called a Barko 1080. There was also a six wheeled Bobcat machine made, but it was not too well liked either

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11467/Barko1080.jpg)

In addition to the clearance problems, with the shear head they liked to tip over sideways when you cut a tree off.  ::)   

I've been in the woods with a skidsteer, and don't see it as a good tool for logging. Others may have a better experience.
Not sure what your woods are like, but if logs longer than 8' are taken out, then skidding while backing out with the log in a grapple, or on a chain/cable choker seems the only good way. Skidding around like skid steers do, seems pretty rough on your forest floor.  (edit, I see you are going the shear route, which might be good for plantation timber).
I'd take a 4wd tractor before I'd take a skid steer. Just my thought.

I've seen them used to take out bucked firewood in the bucket, but the woods was a torn up mess. But it was fast, with a dare-devil operator who could somehow keep the skidsteer upright.. Not sure how he did that, but he had to be quick on the slopes and over stumps and deadfalls.

Like Gary_C says.... ;D

Welcome to the forum.  Are you with the Evergreen Forest Management co. ?

Hi Beenthere,

     I wouldn't be using the skid steer for skidding anyways.  Just for felling trees.  Like I said, these trees aren't any larger in diameter than 6" or so.  It is all pulp and chipper wood.  I wouldn't be concerned about tipping over sideways, at least hopefully not! :o There is so much of it, I thought it would be much more efficient than hand cutting.  I wouldn't dream of skidding logs with a skid steer.  You can't see much, and my neck couldn't take turning to look backwards all day like that.  I have a farm tractor with a Farmi JL 601 winch for skidding.

      I am Evergreen Forest Management, LLC.  Sounds a lot more important than it is.  I'm just a part time logger who wants to go more full time, but stay low impact and not have millions of dollars in equipment assets.  I love being out in the woods and cutting wood.  Hopefully I can do it more on a full time basis. 

Gary, that's a cool picture.  That's pretty much along the lines of what I'm looking at.   

I was afraid you would like that machine. If you are really interested it's for sale at http://www.richardsmachinery.com (http://www.richardsmachinery.com). But again I must warn you, I know of a large ranch in the Colorado flatlands that bought three big Cat skidsteers with shears for a timberstand improvement project and eventually sold them because they were always tipped over.

As far as tracks, there are many styles. The flat steel tracks are good for flotation and the narrow steel will give you good traction. The rubber tracks are usually used for less damage and flotation. None of the tracks regardless of rubber or steel are especially good on slippery side slopes.

i bought a Case 440ct (tracked skid steer) in April. i am an equipment operator, but not a logger. never used the tree shear. i think that would work good. however i've already experienced what someone else already pointed out, low ground clearance. it's a real pain trying to get around EVERY cut stump. i can't see skidding in reverse being a quick operation. when i cut firewood, i use a grapple bucket and cut the logs approximately 6'. that way i just carry a bunch of them cross ways in the grapple. i use the area next to the wood shed as my "landing"(not a logger, but i can pretend :)). cut and chop there.

i have heard bad things about the steel over tire combo. apparently the wheeled drive units need some slipping and with the steel tracks you remove that causing premature wear of the drive train. 

if your really concerned with ride comfort. some brands of skid steers have track rigid mounted others have a suspension of sorts. mine is a rigid. i don't think it's that bad. of coarse i love the smell of diesel exhaust too.

have to wait a little longer to tell you how it handles in the snow :) (can't wait).

another warning--- attachments are addicting ;D grapple bucket, auger 6" and 12" so far.

also i had heard these rubber tracked models caused less ground damage. don't believe it. unless your going straight in and straight out.

Another thing to consider if you are planning to use this to thin the pine, spruce and fir, is just how you plan to thin.
If you are taking out an entire row, and then going back and picking out from in between trees, that's fine.
But with a fixed shear on the front of a skid steer, you would need to turn the skid steer and drive into each tree in order to shear it.
Thus for tight areas, you are going to have trouble.

as for speed i think it'd be ok for a forty. but it seems like it takes a little to long when i have to travel much more than that. don't know what kind of cycle times loggers have for doing that kind of stuff. just feels like i'd be losing money at to long a distance. oops ::)i just saw you weren't going to skid with it.

i did clean out a small 40'x30' pond of all the brush that had been dumped in there through the years. only had about a foot of water in the bottom after i cleared all the muck out. we didn't get much rain this summer. it's a little over half full now. just cause ya got tracks don't mean it floats :D. seriously i think the machine did a great job at that task. i'm sure if i'd have had a wheeled model it'd still be in there.

if my posts make no sense, it's cause you guys keep replying while i'm hunting and pecking :D

I read an article several months ago about a logger in northern Wisconsin who was logging with a skid steer.  He had equipped it with tracks (steel I think), a grapple and a winch.  The terrain where he was logging was probably relatively flat.

if you really must go down that path there is another monster skid steer out there. The Mustang 2109 has taken up where the Bobcat 900 series left off. 1 metre (41") diameter tyres and a gross weight of 4217kg(10520lb). It can lift near enough to 2 tonnes. It could pick up my Mustang 442!!

http://www.mustangmfg.com/mustangmfg/products/products.php?type=1

DTR

We use 277 Cat skid steers with a Tree Terminator made in Plato Mo.  I have used both the wheels with steel and rubber tracked skid steers.  We have never come close to tipping a machine over.  But we operate on relatively flat ground and any slopes we operate going up or going down slope.  We have cut mostly cedar, but some of those cedars were beyond the capcity of the machine to pick up both shear and tree.  Trees probably weighed 3000 plus pounds to 4000 pounds.
We have cut hundreds of acres.  The tracked loaders scuff up the top 2" of the ground, but do not make ruts at all.
Stumps are sheared at ground level.  Running over stumps with the tracks is no fun, but we do it all the time.

We normally wind row the trees so we can carry them out later.  We are doing pretty much a clear cut.  Trees could be bunched together so that a choker could be put around a bunch of them and pulled out with your tractor.

We are in our third year with these loaders.

You would be welcome to visit Oklahoma and see our cutting operation.

I just had our shear in Indiana doing some clearing of fields.  Cut a bunch of 8" dbh sycamores that were 20" at the base.

With the Cat and the clamping shear you can carry the tree vertically through small openings to get into position to lay the tree down where you want it.

You do not want to operate it sideways on slopes.

I have used a case 1845 to prebunch in good conditions. They are handy in that they are very manuverable. Drive around the stumps not over them. I was using chains hooked to the bucket. and just backing up. Did it because I had the skid steer and I wanted to try it.

Stonebroke

I have heard that skid steers are made for carrying.  That extended periods of pushing or pulling will be vary hard on the drive systems and cause early failure.
Anyone know the true facts (is there such a thing as false facts) on this?

If you're doing small softwoodwood for pulp and chips, why not domino cut with the 440?

i use my bobcat 773 in the woods for carrying logs out. it does not have tracks ...yet. i will go with the agressive steel tracks when i do buy. i have to be careful in the woods or i think it could flip over backwards. they say the tracks will help that to an extent. who knows.  i only work up or down slopes never sideways.  i always have to open thetrails up so i can carry 10 ft logs out.  if the ground is a bit wet the bobcat is useless out there.

I use a John Deere 317 with grapple bucket and juest recently purchased the timberline tree shear.  I don't agree with the comment made that they are for pruning.  They handle 12" osage orange just fine so on your 6" pine that might be like butter.  A neat feature on the timberline is as you shear off the tree you can rotate the head as it falls this allows for somewhat directional felling and you then shear off at what ever length desired. 

Skidloaders do work for small logging.  As far as the rubber tracks a guy around here used a rental to see and he had problems with the track rollers filling up with mud and then coming off.  I've herd of similar problems with snow.

woodsteach

I use a rubber tracked 277 Cat in the log yard and the mud can be atrocious at times. You have to clean them out at the end of each day.  You do not want the mud to dry or worse, to freeze solid.  We have yet to use them in snow.  Hope I don't get to this year.
Tracks have never come off because of mud, but have come off because of rotating on a hillside.
Look for a shear that has holding clamps that will let you carry the tree.

It's really great to see that there are other guys out there logging with these skid steer loaders.  It's good to hear the good and bad points about it.  Most of the logging that I get involved with is during the winter months, so usually mud isn't too much a concern.  I've had experience with excavators and always made sure to shovel them out at night if you get into freezing temperatures.  I would hate to have frozen tracks.  I think that if I did go this route with the tracked skid steer, I would go with rubber tracks.  I think as far as stability, machines that come from the factory built with tracks and not rubber wheels, would be more stable.  Most of the terrain I work is pretty flat, but everything helps.

     Rick, I actually do domino with my 440 now.  Like I said earlier, I'm looking to be more versatile.  I'm also working on getting our farm running again and I would like to have a skid steer for the farm as well.   I'm also working on being more efficient and safe.  I would like to be able to have more control felling trees, safer on clearing blow downs.  I feel that if I could be felling trees from a machine, it would be more efficient and safer than using a chainsaw.  Not only that, but there are so many small trees, it would be nice to bunch them and then haul a load out with the tractor or skidder.   By the way Rick, didn't you used to teach math at the old Lancaster Elementary school?  I didn't have you as a teacher as you retired the year I went into 7th grade.  There aren't too many Rick Algers out there, so I thought it must be you.  ;D

I use a Bobcat 873 wheeled loader to log with. Most of the time I try to make a path so we can pick up the logs and hual them out with the forks. I have had to skid them out by going backwards and it is a slow tedious process. I want to get tracks which would help out considerably with mud and snow conditions. Clearance is a big issue so I have to go around stumps or cut them very low to the ground.
Overall the skid steer is certainly not an ideal logging machine but it does work and since I have one any ways and can't afford another machine I make it work. Then again I don't do a lot of logging-mostly just small lots here and there.

If low impact, easy of use, and high return on investment are some of your concerns I would recommend taking a look at LogRite's (link on left side of page) line of logging arches.  Using a Junior and ATV arch together is a very fast and safe way to bunch and forward logs out of the woods to the landing.  Rather then skidding the log they lift and suspend it.  This requires less horse power (almost no dragging resistance) and also helps keep the forest floor free of damage.  Plus if you don't already have a ATV it's a great excuse to get one  ;). 

I've put a couple hundred hours in pushing snow with a LS 180 and loved it for that.  But boy they are not forgiving and I would give anything for a tractor or ATV in the woods. 

As for the tracked machines I don't know how they are now.  But a few years ago I worked  for a rental store and we had both rubber wheeled and rubber tracked machines.  Almost every time the tracked machine went out we would get a service call to go put the tracks back on it because they loved to fall off. 

My three cents, hope some of it helps.
If you have any questions about the Arches please let me know.
Cheers, Ryan

We used Bobcats, both the 1075 & 1080, for about 12 years total. The 1080 was a much nicer machine with planetary drives (higher ground clearance) wider stance and an 80 hp Cummins. It was pretty stable. I think it was only tipped once. They were later sold to Barko. I don't think they have been discontinued for that many years. There should still be some decent used ones out there.

Quote from: evergreenforestmgmt on November 25, 2007, 10:43:11 PM
Yes, I did look at the link to the left for the Timberline shears.  I'm pretty much sold on the dymax shears because you have more control of the tree.  You can grab the tree, shear it, and move it around.  Shears like the timeberline are more for pruning, not for felling larger trees.

I run the Timberline HT shear with a Bobcat T320 track loader and believe me it will do more than just "prune" trees. I had also looked at the Dymax line of rotating shears and liked what I saw and was serious about purchasing one until I got to see a demo of what a Timberline shear could do. Cutting 6" dia trees is childs play to a Timberline shear. One of the design features allows cutting the tree below the ground level reducing the chance of running over stumps. When I am cutting cedar, I often have to "prune" a few limbs before I can get to the stem of the tree....the Timberline shear works excellent for this.

I found out by accident on an unintentional feature of the Timberline shear....even notified the manufacturer of it....splitting firewood. I burn 28-30" long wood in an outside wood furnace and was looking to buy a logsplitter to split that length of wood....looked at a Timberwolf...ouch! Had a bunch of wood to split and really didn't want to do it by hand as most of the wood was from tree tops which would be a pain to split by hand anyway. Was going to buy a dedicated logsplitter for the job until I had the notion to try to split it using the shear....nothing like the sound of wood getting crunched. No need for a dedicated splitter either....saved me about 7 grand too. The rotating feature and the excellent visability of the cutting blade makes short work of any kind of wood that needs to be split. Split a bunch of 24" dia elm blocks like it was nothing. Split WO with muliple hearts and twisted grain easily. Picked up a WO block that was 40" dia x 30" long with the shear and processed it into 20 or so pieces. Actually had fun splitting wood for a change.

Tracked machine....I opted for the rubber tracked Bobcat for stability and lift capacity. Also been shearing locust trees....hard to get a flat running tracks. I do watch for big rocks and avoid running over stumps if possible. If I do run over a stump, I try not to turn on it as it will chew up rubber. I didn't need a suspended machine either as it is hard to shear trees going 6 mph. The T320 is made for digging as well as carrying trees, logs etc.

SMS

Let me explain more about the tipping problem. In the past, most fixed head machines could not rotate sideways. Because of that you could never cut a tree with any side lean. A slight lean towards or away from the direction of approach was alright, but no side lean. The obvious problem was as soon as you cut the tree off and the tree would fall sideways, there was nothing you could do to prevent sideways tip over. Even opening the grapple would not stop a tip over. This happened on large feller bunchers as well as shear heads on skidsteers. There even were some bent and twisted booms on John Deere excavators with fixed heads

If I am hearing right, these newer shears have sideways rotation and that would sure help. I once saw a stroke delimber on a Bobcat 1080 and it of course had side rotation of the head. But even that machine was only working on the flatlands in central Wisconsin and that logger had added a lot of ballast for stability.

Another problem was driving to place a cut off tree in a bunch. If the ground was slightly uneven or if the top hung up in another tree, you could go over.


Another thing that is used to help prevent tipover is those bogey tracks. The steel ones are extremely heavy and are as good as ballast fluid in the bogey tires. I run tracks most all the time on both harvester and forwarder for the weight and stability.

The other things used are the setting on the relief valve on the lift cylinder and a hydraulic pivot lock on the center pivot on an articulated machine.

So I guess that other than for the flatlanders, tipovers are a big problem, but far more severe for smaller feller bunchers like skid steers without the weight or other elaborate measures to help prevent them from tipping.

Yes, that's me. I'm doing low impact work with my horses now. Who are you?

  I have spent probably 2000 hours in skid steers, mostly Case machines but also a Cat 287 with ASV rubber tracks. The rubber undercarriages are great in soft ground, landscaping, etc. In the woods, I would be afraid of tearing them up. A friend that is an equipment salesman told me he has guys using ASVs with brush mowers that are getting less than 500 hours on a set of tracks. Costs about $10,000 to rebuild. So personally I leave the ASV machines for the guys laying out sod. If I went with rubber, I would go with anyone but ASV or Cat. The rest of the manufactuers all use a rigid track frame and heavier tracks. They get way more hours of operating time on those tracks and they cost around half of the asv to rebuild. The Asv's have torsion bars and a bunch of springs and what for the suspension. A lot more stuff too break, I think. You don't see all that garbage on dozers. As far as pushing and pulling, at work we use our machines for a lot of excavating and rough grading on driveways, and they get abused. They are made to dig, I don't think you'll hurt the driveline skidding trees with one. I haven't used a shear head on one, I think if you stuck to trees less than 10" and cut your stumps real low, you'd be alright. I think I'd also go with rubber tires and steel tracks, the woods are tough on stuff, this set- up is way more durable. Also, the only way a skid-steer will ever be low impact in the woods is if you do your work in the winter when the ground is froze

Thanks for the good advice.  I am torn between the tracks.  Should I go with rubber, should I go with tires with steel tracks?  I think that you made a good point about the suspension system that Cat/ASV shares.  It would only be extra stuff to break out there which would cost more.  However, I think that if I went with another brand with rubber tracks, that was a ridged frame, it would be less headaches and would give me better flotation.   Remember folks, this is not a machine that would solely be used for logging.  It would be used on the farm as well.  Mostly on unpaved surfaces.  The rubber would last me a while.  For most farm use rubber track skid steers, they can get about 2500 hours out of the tracks.  I think that it would work ideal for me.  Yes I would be nervous about throwing a track out there in the woods, but I've also thrown the steel tracks off my excavator before.  You just have to be careful and watch where you're going.  Try not to run over and turn on stumps, etc.  I'm not trying to be a Timbco with the skid steer, but I think it would work ok.  After reading what you guys wrote, I wouldn't be afraid to buy one.  I could always rent a machine, drive it around out there in the snowy woods and see how it acts, without the head.  Then if I felt it would work, I'd invest.  The cool thing about skid steers too, is the endless attachments for them.  They have to be without a doubt the most versatile machine out there.  It is a do all machine of sorts, even if it can't do everything as well as a purpose built machine.
     
     I'm sorry, seems like I touched a nerve on you Timberline shear owners.  I didn't mean to say they were bad.  I am sure they are capable of cutting just about anything.  The only thing, like I said, I would want to have a bunching capability so I could grab the tree and control the fall.  I'm sure you guys that have them can probably do this already, it would just make me feel better.  Also I'd be able to pick the smaller trees up and bunch them for removal with the skidder. 

     Rick, I am Dave Savage, I live down in Jefferson.  The other reason  I thought it was you because either on here or in the paper, I saw your picture and read about your woodlot so I figured it was you on here. 

Hi Dave,

Yeah, the horses have been in the Democrat, The Sentinel, the Daily Sun and the Reporter. The shots on this Forum were taken by another Forum member, sprucebuuny. Great press, but  I haven't gotten a single job from it.

Back to the skid steer. Sounds like you're doing your homework. It  certainly is safer with a cage over your head.  I still wonder about volume.

Anyway, I agree with your  plan to try one out first.

Good luck.

We operate both rubber tracked machines and a wheeled loader with steel tracks.  Both work well in a woody environment.  The tracks can be damaged by multiple derailings or running with too low tension.  As far as damage to forest floor the rubber track will squash and churn the top inch or two of soil. It does no damage below that.  The steel tracked loader will churn more.  This occurs when turning. Especially sharp turns.  It shears off the top 1/2" of soil. Soil compaction is extremely low with these machines compared to wheeled equipment.

Some woods benefit by this scarifying the soil top by letting certain species germinate. Swampdonkey ought to have some thoughts on this.

All the skid steer attachments fit my Kubota w/front wheel assist.
If you are careful, you could get through the woods and a tractor might be more useful doing other things. Like 3 point. Also a tractor would do less damage to the ground.
The shears can grab a log without cutting it and you could move those small trees around.
Just an idea.

Evergreen,  I appologize if I came across as anything other than just giving you my 2 cents worth.  But on to other things....  I too use the loader on the farm, at the mill, and logging.  When I upgrade to a different loader in the next 18 months it will still probably be wheeled and then put metal tracks over when necessary, although I'd like to see someone whith rubber tracks over tires chime in.

Good luck and all I can say is we regret that it took us soooo long to purchase a skid steer for on the farm use.

woodsteach

  I think of my skid steer kind of the same way I do my Leatherman multi-tool. Not the best at anything, but it can do about anything.

There is a number of guys in Nova Scotia using tractors with a small harvester head on the 3 point to do thinning.  I've seen some fancy rigs on Versitiles (bi-directional tractors), and some simple stroke delimbing units on regular farm tractors.  One place builds mounts so the harvester head mounts on a subframe of 60-100 hp tractors and you can use the 3pt hitch without demounting.  Usually on Valtra/Valmet tractors.  Some guys just install a grapple instead of harvester so they can use a forwarding trailer and move round bales with it too.

I have a JD 280 skidsteer with metal tracks over tires.   I have a Dymax 14 inch sheer for the unit.  This unit is 4 years old, and they have come out with a newer model which has a faster cycle time for the hydraulics.

I would not consider running this set-up with any smaller skidsteer.  When cutting long poles or trees with large crowns, stability quickly deteriorates.

The weakest hydraulic cylinders on the skidsteer are the ones that dump  the bucket.  This is important, because if you cut a long pole/large crowned tree and angle the tree backwards over the cab, the hydraulics may not be powerful enough to dump the tree.  Angling the tree backwards when removing a tree from the forest is helpful from preventing branches from interlocking when moving.

My skid steer with the metal tracks acts like a rototiller.  I would never call it low impact.  When working on frozen ground, metal tracks are dangerous on any grade.

I rented a T300 with a grapple and wide rubber tracks, I think about seven feet to drag about one hundred trees out of the woods. It was a slow process using a chain attached to the grapple and wrapped around the log. The largest log was about 30 inches at the butt and 25 feet long, 24 inches at the top. The ground had about a ten degree slope and up we went no problem. Then I picked the log up with the grapple and put it on the trailer. It took about 30 hours, but some of that time was cutting. The pull distance was up too 100 yards or so.

I mostly went up and down the slope, but I felt much more comfortable in the T300 with tracks than my tractor. The tracks take out all the bumps and dips in the woods that wheels just seem to magnify. Ground clearance was about eight inches so stumps have to be cut low. Also, backing up does get old as does holding the throttle handles back.

The tracks will leave a depression on the ground and the logs can leave a scar, even though the grapple with chain will lift one end of the log off the ground.

Perhaps I missed it, but one thing I did not see is the mention of the importance of a high range on the gearing. Perhaps many of ALL the new machines have it, but only a few of the older ones I have operated have it, Brands like Deere, and New Holland seem to really scoot in high range, perhaps they were built with the "farm" in mind were great distances need to be covered, and some brands more focused on the construction scene, like Bobcat (which I like). Just something to think about if you are moving the logs any distance. Personally, I am a fan of a utility vehical, or tractor and an arch. Arches make SOO much sense, especially for a occasional or hobbist user and the increased versitility (3 pt. impliments are FAR FAR cheaper than skidsteer implements) and it could actually be fun facing forward and skidding not to mention the ease of the in and out vs. a skidsteer. This is a fairly goo sized tree fully suspended (to keep it mud free) You could move a much bigger tree easily, so easily you would want it dragging to slow you down on decents, Additionally, one cool thought would be to build an...........perhaps I shouldn't mention this.........could be profitable, an arch w/ a hydraulic surge brake for slowing the load on decents. It seems there is little problem moving logs once suspended, only trouble stopping them ;D so many ideas and soo few hours in the day!!!


(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/OGator%40windmill4.jpg) (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11262/OGator%40windmill3.jpg) .02 cent.   

           Ironwood

I have used my Case skid steer only. It has grouser tracks. It will get light  going up or down a steep hill, but going slow is the answer. I bring 20" white oak out on 4' forks. You can turn and miss the stumps, and its a lot less costly than using a big wheeled skidder. I need a bigger machine before I put a shear on it as mine is 60 horse. I wouldn't get one without grouser tracks though.

The skid steers that have high range are great when your driving down a road or across a parking lot (read SMOOTH) but if you try crossing any terrain in high you better be buckled in  :)

Wow!  Thanks to everyone for writing in with your comments.  I had no idea that there would be so many responses.  It really surprises me to see all the guys come out of the woodwork who use skid steers for logging. 

     I am also interested in using a tracked skid steer with a hydraulic winch maybe Farmi.  Preferably radio controlled.  Not necessarily for skidding, but for winching logs to roadside for forwarding with the tractor or whatever. 

     I am still in debate about which track system.  I've talked to people who have the ASV/Cat machines and say that they're track pattern works better in snow than Bobcat or others.  I'm not really brand loyal.  The video for Dymax who makes the shear that I'm interested  in shows a Cat 277 and also a Bobcat machine probably around the same size.  I like the Cat machine over the ASV RC machines because there is no Fiberglass to break.  The track system is the same for both machines, obviously.   People say the ASV's are good on just about any terrain, so I would say that Cat would be too. 
      I'm still about a year away on purchasing so I'm just reading feedback right now.  As I get closer, I'll rent a couple of machines and try them out, even in the snow to see how they perform. 

John Deere does not recommend using high gear with metal tracks over tires configuration.

They have limitations - mainly too steep slopes for sideways orientationb like cedarman says, but for a small logging operation I can amaze some folks who never gave thought to using a skidsteer in the woods at how many logs I can get out of the thick woods and loaded onto the trailer by the end of the day without having it look like a big logging grappler went throught there. How many trailer loads - plural - is what i should say.
I am speaking from experience many of the detractors of using skid steers have little or none experience using them for logging. Using one a few days willnot make you like them too much for logging, but I am so eficient with mine that no tractor is going to have a chance at keeping up with my little 42 HP Daewoo in thick woods.
But I cannot do many things that a machine designed specifically for really rough logging terrain can do, but i log mostly on flat and rolling woodlands. Of course i do cross dry creek beds and ravines and holes and all manner of woods that you would think are are way too thick for a skid steer, and built up woith years of dead trees and branches etc. that's no problem.
For what you are asking, low impact logging on smaller woodlots I can't think of a better machine to use to achieve this. I prefer wheeled obver tracks but thats' just me. It's a little bumpier but I can oiperate on peoples drivewasy without destroying them. Instead of doing spin turns it does not take much more time to do a 5 to 7 point turn which leaves basically no destruction.

Those are good words of inspiration, Texastimbers.  I think they would be a good all around versatile machine.  I'm not looking at hi production, but more for versatility.  The only difference I wonder is how a tracked skid steer will go in the snow.  I cut most of my wood during the winter months.  I know from experience that mini excavators don't go through snow well at all.  I know that a tracked skid steer would have wider tracks (usually 18" wide)  but I am not sure how it would handle.  It would be nice to hear if anyone has experience as far as that is concerned.

It's illegal to work in the snow here in Texas so I cannot comment on that. It is according to my constitution that is. :D

evergreen keep in mind there are many who would say I am painting a rosy picture of what a skid steer can do in the woods. I am sharing my own personal experience. If I was in your shoes I would ask around and find some smaller local operators who are using them and get their perspectives. Some people here on the FF are loggin in terrain I could not be very effective in with my skid steer.

If you are going to be trying to do alot of volume in real bumpy terrain with lots of ravines and whatnot you better make sure and find out what experienced locals are using. Skid steers are the best choice for my needs but that doesn't mean they would be best in your situation i don't know what your terrain is like. Do plenty of local detective work before you spend that kind of coin and don't make an emotional desicion just because skid steers are "cool". And just because they are extremely versatile does not mean it will excel in every logging situation you put it in.

There are four humungous cottonwoods perfectly straight and I swear 40 feet to the first limb that I would like to make some 20' super wide planks from, but I would have to really put on my thinking cap to figure a way to get those monsters out of the woods with my skid steer. It would take a logging arch the size of my skid steer to do it. But of course that kind of need doesn't arise very often. What I need in that case is a swinger. 8)

Steel tracks on a wheel loader will let you slide anywhere you don't want to go on icy hills.  Aaron tried to clear an icy road with his and slid all over the place.  The rubber tracked loader did just fine.

 The steel tracks don't do well on ice, I bet. I've used them quite a bit when doing asphalt removal, and when you get on the asphalt it is like being on ice. Kind of fun, actually :D. I haven't got to try my personal machine in the woods with the steel tracks yet, I'm waiting on a set of wheel spacers so I can run the tracks I have. I have used tire chains on mine, just two wheels, and that makes a big difference in the woods as tires like to spin on every little piece of wood you drive up against. If chained at all four corners they would get around quite well as long as the terrain is fairly level and you don't get hung up on stumps. I'm thinking I might end up welding small pieces of bar stock on my tracks so they will bite into ice and wood, I'll see once I try them out. I hope they will give me a little flotation in the snow too. As someone else said, tracks on a skid steer make the woods look like it has been rototilled. In fact, at work sometimes we'll stockpile sod and topsoil removals on a job, and then run a steel tracked skid steer on the piles and spin cookies for a while. Then the material can be laid back out, the big chunks are all gone 8). I do all my skid steer woods work in the winter, so nothing gets tore up except a few trees you inadvertantly back into.

Quote from: barbender on December 09, 2007, 09:31:52 PM. . . . . and you don't get hung up on stumps. . . . .

Y'all probably have other machine avaialable to pull a skid sterr off a stump. I log alone usually and with no other equipment to pull me off. For that very reason I always have either my grapple or forks on the machine even when I am skidding logs out with the tongs. i have hung up on a stump dozens of times but only once was I unable to get off the stump using the implement. I had to whittle a little on the stump enough to weaken it until it finally broke what little was left of the stump when I pushed off with the forks or grapple whatever I had on. I had started to just run the blade of the saw into the stump but it dawned on me if I did not whittle away at it as a beaver would do then I would really be in a fix when the saw blade got pinched. I don't think I would have had room to reach my hand and chainsaw tool in there remoce the powerhead.

The only other close call I that comes to mind was when I fell into a narrow ravine once at an angle that, once I was able to get out of the machine and look at it I thought "How in the heck will I ever get out of this one!" i was already picturing going to the nearest farmer with my hat in hand and hand on wallet. Cause no amount of using the forks was going to push it up and out of the ravine. The machine was about 40% below ground level and probably 30 tilt. Then it hit me, I walked to the truck and trailer and dragged all the chain I could in to the site. I wrapped the chain around the nearest medium size tree as high up as I could shimmy. I lifted my forks as high as they would go and pulled the chain as tight as i could before slipping a link into the clevis hook I have welded on the crossbar between the lifting arms. I got back in the machine and brought the arms down - it took a while for the chain slack to tighten enough to actually lift the back of the machine. The i shut it off, got out and felled a small ash, ,and bucke enough short legths to stack under them machine. Then I rolled a length of the ash across the ravine close enough to use the forks to lift the fron of the machine and toss some short lengths in and jump doewn on there and stack them up under the front of the machine just as I did in the back.
In the end I got the machine out this way but it did not go as smooth as it might sound. I was plumb wore out and called it a day. thankfully this king of thing does not happen often. I am careful where I go 99% of the time. But that 1% can be a bear.

Knock on wood, so far I have not got the machine in a situation from which i was not able to extircate myself.

i havent been keeping up on this thread, so if my comments seem strange thats why. last winter my buddy and i were cutting lodgepole pine near granby colorado. he has a cat 262b (skidsteer) with a grapple on it. it is a good sized skid steer with 88 hp. he is very good with machines. when the snow wasnt too deep, he could skid at probably 3 or 4 times faster that a guy with a cable skidder. the trees we were taking were everywhere from 7" dia to 16" dia, being taken out tree length. sometimes we would limb them in the woods, and then he would pile the slash with the grapple there, sometimes we would skid to a landing and limb and pile the slash there. snow up to about knee deep was not a problem for him, and this was not always flat ground. even when i took my grapple skidder over there, he would fish the trees out and bunch them where i could grab them. before the snow got too deep, he had steel tracks on, but when it got really deep, he just ran chains.
in the hands of a good operator, in relatively small timber, a skid steer can be WAY FASTER than a cable skidder, or even a grapple skidder. if the skids get long, the skidders start to become more competitive. being that they are so small, and so maneuverable, the really have a place in select cuts with short skids.

I've got an ASV 2810. It is a totally unique machine as it has bi-directonal operation, and is balanced like a dozer.
It also will run all 3 point attachments, and skidsteer quick relese. SO for skidding, you can operate it by driving with the engine forward where you want it.  Mine has a large windshield enclosed cab with good visability.

Stay away from the RC-100 as it is horribly balanced for skidding of any kind. A fire suppression crew has one in our area and they hate it.  Overheats constantly also. They also hate the fact that the windshield behind the seat is so high they can't see out of it when backing up to skid a log.  Then of course the seat switch cuts out the engine when they sit up to see out back.. :D

THere are no springs and tortion bars.  The machines are tough.  They also made a 4810 that has a Cat engine. Mine has the Isuzu turbo diesel. ASV technitions told me the 2810 and the 4810 were the best machines they had ever designed and had the most traction of any of the ASV's made.  8)

Okay jp a picture is worth a thousand words. My skidsteer is not going to last forever but if it makes it to '09 i have already scheduled it for replacement by late '09 or early 2010 at the very latest. Of course if mine has some sort of catastrophic need over say about $4000 (engine; lifting arms rip off;)I will have to get a machine whenever that happems ready or not because without a skid sterr i am out of business. Period.
I will not buy a new machine most likely no matter how many seashells I may or may not have in the bank at the time, and your machine sounds super duper interesting to me. Bi-directional with 3-point AND quick-change skid steer capabilities almost made me jump off the stump I sit on at this shop laptop!
let's have a look shall we! ANd please give a few specs you know I would like to knoe like lifting specs, HP, how does it turn skid or non skid and if non skid what is the turn radius.  etc. ???

Oh, and thanks. ;)

JP, I'm with TexasTimbers....you got to find some pictures of that ASV machine you speak of.  That would be ideal for what I'm looking for.  I looked up on machinerytrader.com at the ASV skid steers and I guess, I don't follow what you mean by bi directional.  I mean, I know what it means, but I didn't see anything different about the machines there where you could spin your seat around and go the other way.  Otherwise, I want one!   :D

evergreen that is what i am picturing the whole schmeel seat and controls and all spin aroun 360 but I know that must too good to be true!

Texas, that's what I envisioned, but I don't think it's what we're thinking.  What I don't understand is how you could drive with the engine forward towards the tree.  Is there a 3 point hitch attachment to the rear of the ASV?  What throws me off is talking about not having to look through the rear window and backing up.  That's the only way I'm familiar with the ASV's.  You face forward towards the loader and the engine sits behind you.  Hopefully JP will show us some pictures so we get it!

Yes- the seat lifts off of 2 peg mounts, and turns around. Takes bout 20 seconds. THe ASV 3 point attachment connects to the frame.  They even have a PTO. It has front and rear hi/low hydraulics. The have frame mount attachments also like 6 way dozer blade, backhoe, etc. that connect to they frame instead of the loader arms as well.

The loader arms lift  up and pin to the roll cage out of the way...  8) I'll post some pics, but the day I brought it home I immedaitely put it to work. Not much time for a photo shoot..  :D

Notice the center of gravity with the loading arms/engine and cab. Most all other skidders have the weight including arm pivot all at the rear over the engine.

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/2800_il_specs.gif)

Look how low the engine sits and how big the windshield is:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/asv.jpg)


Got her home with a brand spankin' new trailer..  8)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/asvhome2small.JPG)

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/gotherhomesmall.jpg)


Specs:
http://www.asvi.com/2800_main.cfm
http://www.asvi.com/2800_specifications.cfm
http://www.asvi.com/2800_standard_equipment.cfm
http://www.asvi.com/2800_worktools.cfm

Alas ASV discontinued these machines. I asked why, and they siad the demand overall wasn't as great as the smaller bobcat style. They were real popular with vinyards and mountainous country such as mine.

I can't have a tractor in the mountains here, so this is my tractor...  8) 8) 8)

Here's the frame mount, category II 3point with PTO:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/pto_2.jpg)

Here's the frame mount backhoe with arms pined up out of the way:

(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13183/frame_backhoe.jpg)


The seat is actually 3 positions...

1- normal skidsteer operation

2- flip it around to drive it like a dozer

3- Shown in the bachoe pic. 

It has 2 more pegs that the hydraulic foot control plate sits on which is a foot rest also.  The seat can be placed there, which brings you right out so you can operate a 3point or frame mount backhoe control from the ASV seat, and still be able to move the machine to reposition your backhoe without having to get in and out of the cab.

Oh. My. Gosh. 2010 be danged. Something must be sold. I have to have one. It is perfect for what I  need. Except one important question. Do they come with a wheeled option?

Quote from: jpgreen on December 11, 2007, 01:36:55 PM

Alas ASV discontinued these machines.

They can still be bought new (i think I saw an ad for a new one but can't find it now. When did they quit making them?) and used. I just googled up quite a few.  I am going to think that when I am able to get one someone somewhere is going to need to unoad thiers for whatever reason. 8)

Mines an 2001. I think maybe 04' was the last year?

They are out there.  I paid $17500 for mine with a 4 in1 asv bucket. It had 730 hours on it, with no hard construction use.  THe owner had garaged it even.

The ASV tech also told me the Isuzu Turbo diesel was the best engine they ever put in them. I would tend to agree from the  opinions of the crew and my friend who runs the RC100 with the Perkins Diesel up here.  They are on thier second engine..  ::)

The 4810 is heavier with a Cat diesel.  I wanted the slightly lighter 2810 and the 2810 has better visability as the engine is not as tall.  It runs like a new machine..  8)

These are track loaders only.  No wheels.

Sorry JP, I certainly didn't mean to doubt you when you said they were bi directional.  I had no idea that the ASV's could do that.  That is the coolest thing ever!!  Could you sometime show more pictures with the seat changes.  That I'd really like to see.  Do you have to get out of the cab to rotate the seat or can you do it while seating?  Also, does yours have foot controls for the loader or do they all have pilot joysticks now?  That's what I'd prefer, I don't like the foot controls anymore. 

     With the seat rotating, looks like one could hook a log trailer/loader to the front of the machine and drive it around with the engine forward.  That is a great machine.   I'd like one of those.  Now if I can sell my skidder!  8)

I'd agree on the Isuzu- those probably were the best engines ASV ever had in their machines, although I think some of them may have ran a John Deere diesel. The Perkins that is used in the new ASV's and Cat skid steers is a piece of garbage I think. That's another thing I like about my Case, it has a 3.9 cummins engine. JP, I've heard the old style ASV's really had problems with the tracks coming off on sidehills, have you experienced any of that? That 2810 does look like a versatile machine with the 3 point and all. 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11286/grapple%20opt.jpg)  It doesn't look like it when it's closed, but this little grapple opens up to about 3 1/2 or 4 feet wide, it works great for bunching up smaller wood. TexasTimbers, I used to use tongs too, got sick of only being able to grab one piece at a time so I built this thing. I've probably used this to move 200-250 cords of wood, it works pretty well on the short skids. I'd like to build a little cart I could push around so I could use it like a mini forwarder. I think a lot of people have their perception of these machines from the tiny Bobcats from years back that were real jumpy and tipped over all the time. Around here, everyone calls skid steers "Bobcats" whether it's a case, cat, new holland or bobcat. I cut some pine once to get logs for our log house, ended up with about 10 cords of logs and 50 cords of saw logs and pulp. Had to plow the haul road through about 18" of snow about 3/4 of a mile back to the sale, when the trucker came back to haul the logs he asked me "You did all this with a BOBCAT???"  :D So you can get a lot done with them

No track derailment as yet.  The manual is real specific about keeping the proper tension on the tracks to prevent them coming off.  If that was not addheared to, I could see someone having a problem.

The 2810 and 4810 are the ONLY asv's that are bi-directional I beleive.

The seat sets on 2 steel pegs bout' 2" in diameter. To change the seat you have to pick the seat up and turn it around, or set it back on the front pegs. It is joystick controlled, with a footrest control for things like the hydraulics on my 4in1 bucket.

I may have a guy build me a set of steel tracks that go on like chains for more tracton in certain situations, and they may increase belt life.

Is it ment to be a hardcore logging skidder?... obviously not, but I don't know of a more versitile machine that fits all of my needs. I picked up a 20" x 18' log with the clam bucket, and it didn' even blink. The log was pretty green.

Used it 2 days and hardly used a 1/4 of fuel.  I'm happy with it..  :)

I'll try to get some pics of the seat swap asap.

I've looked at machines from tractors to all terrain forklifts for a few years now trying to decide on which would be best for my situation.

Being a backwoods hillbilly- incline safety was a big concern so that ruled out a lot of equipment. I wanted something that would be an all around implement tractor that I could pull with my pick up from area to area.

When I first learned about the 2810, I was stunned as it was the only thing that actually seamed like it would fit my needs, and I think it's done that and more even...  8) 8) 8) :) 8) 8) 8)

Barbender...You built that grapple ??  how about some more pics and details. I'd sure love to build one

ditto on the nice grapple..  :)

 Yep I built that one, a lot of trial and error- heavy on the error :) I kind of copied the function of it from pictures I saw on the web of a skid steer grapple, I think it is a Valby. I built it on the cheap, so it doesn't have a rotator, it just swivels. You have to be careful not to wrap the hoses around the swivel, or bad things happen. Really, a rotator isn't necessary (they are around $500) but it should have a spring to center it and some stops so it doesn't wrap the hoses up. Other than that, it's pretty handy and I think I've got the bugs mostly worked out of it. I had some more pictures of my set up on the forum somewhere, I can't remember where though. It's not in my gallery. If I can't find them I'll post some new ones. JP, I think you're right, with the ability to use 3 point implements and all, that would be very versatile. The bi-directional would be nice,too.  Skidding in reverse isn't very fun. I think if your meticulous with your maintenance and watch out in the roughage so you don't tear up your tracks, that machine will last you a long time. I'm probably a little hard on the ASV's, probably cause I get sick of hearing about them from the locals (They are made up here in Grand Rapids, MN) So they end up being like a favorite son or something. "why didn't you get an asv?" or "I bet an asv could do that" are common comments up here, especially from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Just because they are made locally, everyone (and their grandma) knows what they are.  My favorite scenario was when our crew went to prep a job for paving, it was for Gary Lemke, the founder/ president of ASV. We come rolling in with a Case and Cat skid steer to start excavating. Me and the foreman are visiting with Mr. Lemke and he asks "Where's the ASV's?" I step back (I avoid confrontation) and my foreman, Tim Hatfield (same family that fueded with the McCoy's) proceeds to tell him they don't work out for us, as they don't lift high enough to load the end dumps. Mr. Lemke says " Oh yes they do" and gave the lift height spec. On and on it goes, and I'm thinking to myself "Tim, come on, you are not going to win this argument, this guy has made millions off of these things!!" Finally, Mr. Lemke tells us where to leave any extra material off to the side of the job, where he would later lay it out himself- "With a Posi-Trac!!" You had to be there for the full effect, I sure was a cacklin'- on the inside.

I found the photos but I don't know how to link to them, I'll have to ask my wife how in the morning.  :)

Quote from: barbender on December 11, 2007, 11:59:35 PMTim Hatfield (same family that fueded with the McCoy's)

.... :D

I owned a commercial sweeping business for 15 years.  Done a lot of paving prep. Worked with lots of different equipment.

I think every manufacturer has their good and bad stuff. I think ASV has problems with their RC100's for sure.  There's more of them used on the market than any other machine it seems like, and I've heard lots of complaints. Why put scrappola diesels in your machines?  Why not stick with cummins, isuzu, and cat?

JP, I had another question I thought about your ASV 2810.  Say you had a logging winch hooked up on the loader and you were skidding with your seat turned around so the winch is to your back and the engine is forward through the woods (machine backwards)  how do you get out when you go to unhitch your logs?  Do you then swivel the seat around and climb out the door regular?  Or is there room to get in and out with the seat backwards?  Also was curious on how much room is in the cab.  I'm 6'5" tall so it's hard to get in and out of some of these machines.  Does it feel roomy when you're sitting in the cab, either direction?

JP, you're exactly right, everybody has good and bad points with their machines. I think with ASV, they had something truly unique with the models like yours, but now they are trying to make the new ones more like everyone else's skid steers. Thing is, most other companies have made skid loaders for quite a while, ASV has been making, well, ASV's. I haven't really heard too much about the RC50 and RC60, but the RC100's kind of tear themselves apart. We have one in our company, I've never ran it, but it's supposed to have a ton of power. They really haven't had any major problems with it yet, but it's due for an undercarriage rebuild. The company got it brand new, I don't know how many hours it has on it. We paved a parking lot for one of the asv factories, got 2 RC100's and what turned out to be the prototype Cat 287 for payment. When the Cat u/c had to be rebuilt and the boss saw what it cost, he sent the second still new RC100 down the road on trade for something. Shop foreman claims it's cheaper per hour for the u/c on our D8!! On your machine, I bet it would be handy to have a skidder type grapple with a winch on it. The grapple sure speeds things up, not having to get in and out.  Evergreen, I'm 6'5" as well, I wish everything wasn't built around that 5'8" 160 lb "average" guy  :)

I'm not as tall as you guys I'm 5'11'' @ 230. There's room to step over the seat.

I dunno.  It seems farily roomy to me, but I'll have to get in it and think about that if I were taller.

My buddy- West Coast Chris is tall like you guys.  Man he's real tall.  So tall I think he's gettin' taller every time I see him..  :D

I bought this off ebay and I got it for $1200 out the door shipped by calling and negotiating with the owner.
I think it will be perfect for what I've got to do and handy cause I can dig with it, skid logs and trees by grabbing one end, and then picking up brush piles also:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320190559471&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=011

This is great info on what lloks like a great mcahine. I had no idea it even existed.

barbender yes I agree I think the perception of the 70s and 80s little tiny "tippy toy" bobcats are still with alot of folks. Anyone who runs a fairly heavy machine with plenty of power for any length of time though I think they generally come around pretty quick.

I have a grapple. It's a store (online) bought that is considered lightweight because i didn't want to buy the 1200 pound grapple and reduce my tipping weight so drastically. But mine keeps getting torn up after just a few hours of use. I rebuild it and weld on extra 1/2" plates "chasing weak points" and thoght I finally had it beefy enough in all the cylinder bracket areas - but this last failure was a suprise to even me, the owner of the cheapo built thing. One of the hydraulic cylinders practically blew up. It cracked the front seal flange on two sides and shot fluid all over the place (no direct hit on me) with so much pressure it sounded like a 22 cal. going off near my ear even over the engine. It also completely tore off the front claw bracket it is attached to which is a doubled 1/2" steel design and looked to be welded on well. there are no voids visible anywhere in the weld which is now plainly opened up to see like an autopsy. So it did at the same time.
This happened when I grabbed down on a log. My skid steer operates the aux hyd by a middle pedal - I have three pedals (Korean design :)) ) and I have always had to act a human "bleed valve" when grabbing stuff with my grapple because if I leave the pedal depressed (closed) too long the pressure tears something apart on the grapple. i learned this when I used the grapple th every first time. It ripped one of the back brackets off on the first use. I welded it back on and was careful not to keep the valve open (pedal down) too long but soimetimes the pedal gets stuck in the "engage detent" if you are not real careful. It's handy when I punch holes because I don't have to keep my foot on the middle pedal to keep the auger spinning and it frees up both feet so I can use the lift and tilt functions to rock the auger in hard clay which helps digging in hard soils as you know.
Anyhow, all that to ask you what you think is wrong. i called the grapple company early on and they - get this - basically said I got what i deserved because I bought their lightweight graple versus the heavyweight one. I had asked if the light weight would handle grabbibg the logs and had been told it would handle anything it could pickup on a skid steer my size (42HP). So no help from them. I have been wondering all this time if their is sipossed to be some sort of bleed off valve or some sort of hydraulic pressure limiter on the grapple to limit the psi the cylinders get. i am fairly hydraulic ignorant so it may be a very dumb question. But I am looking for answers that might enable me toi make the thing reliable. I love the very light 600 pound weight of it because it still leaves me with nearly 1400 pounds of tipping weight. Any ideas. ???

TT I don't know what kind of valve that foot pedal is connected to, but there should be a pressure relief pop-off on the valve body, most of them are adjustable. Look for a large bolt that sticks out of the valve body. It will have a jamb nut on it to lock it down. Loosen the jamb nut and back out the bolt to lower the maximum pressure going to the cylinder. On my dozer the control valve for the hydraulic clutch is adjusted down to 300 psi from the normal 2500 psi. You might have the setup where several control valves are all built into one casting and there's only one pop-off for the whole bank, but that would be unusual.

I'll dig out all the twigs from the pedal compartment and see what i can see. I need to grease all the fittings again anyway. If I do have that type of a flow control design I guess it means I will need to adjust back up for digging and back down for grappling. I hope not that would be downright inconvenient. Not nearly as inconvenient as repairing the grapple all the time though.
I scanned my manuals but didn't see an ajdustment notation anywhere.
Thanks for the idea.

I don't really know squat bout hydraulics, cause as yet I've never built anythin with them but thats all going to change soon.

Dayamm though... my AVS 4-1 doesn't have any kind of ripping pressure like that, but you can tell there's a limit pressure sw working.

Here's maybe a solution if you wind up having to re-adjust some pain in the ass valve...

On my Vermeer stump grinder there's a valve with a turn knob right next to the hydraulic controls. It controls the feed pressure to the system all cept for the cutter head speed.  So if you want to creep up, or go full bore, you turn the valve up of down like a hose faucet.

Couldn't be simpler././\\\... 8)

 That's what I thought too, sounds like a relief valve isn't working. Either that or your grapple is designed for a way lower working pressure. JP I was looking at that exact stump/root grapple on Ebay. It looks like just the ticket for stump removal, have you done any yet? I was thinking it would be great for clearing cause you could cut down the trees, buck and limb them, pile everything up, and then dig up and pile the stumps too. I'll be waiting for your complete performance evaluation :D. I have lots of stumps to get rid of, I'd really like to build something along those lines.

Haven't messed with the hydraulics yet. Cold and wet and not fit for human locomotion out there right now.

But in the meantime the answer to the stump removal question is a bright target on my radar also.

I haven't received the grapple yet. It is so popular, they have been backordered 10 days.

It looks built "hell for stout".  I think it will be a good all around tool.  Like them multi use tools..  ;D

I know that this is an old post but with the fact that a lot of people have given great information here is a question for you.
Using a Tree Shear how much damage does it do to the log?