iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Weak TIMBCO

Started by Firewoodjoe, July 18, 2022, 12:44:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Firewoodjoe

What would make my hydarulics get very weak from time to time. It's intermittent day to day. All hydraulics. Some days it's almost frustrating to even run especially on hills. Other days you swear your going to break something it's scary fast/powerful. It's has a lot of valves and horsepower limiters and such in the hydraulic schismatic. Not sure where to even start. I was going with the it will eventually get worse and easier to find method lol Also sometimes when I should it down warm to change and bar or chain it wil start right up but no pilot controls/functions of any kind. You have to shut it back off wait a few minutes and try again. Like something is stuck. I'm not sure if it's all the same problem. Just wonder if anyone has had a track machine with similar problems. 

Firewoodjoe

Well I was expecting today. Side hill boom out swing lever to the right. Wouldn't swing up hill. Just sat there. While holding it I hit other functions and it would start to swing. Then I backed up and blew, what hope to be a hose, next to the main valve stack. I just got it off the hill and left. It's all so hot I couldn't get in there to look.  🙄

BargeMonkey

🤦‍♂️ I know how those days go. Mines getting slow putting the stick out with a tree, I'm hoping it's just in the valve bank. 

barbender

It's just trying to give you a little extra time to count all of your $$$, Barge!😁
Too many irons in the fire

BargeMonkey

Quote from: barbender on July 18, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
It's just trying to give you a little extra time to count all of your $$$, Barge!😁
I burned that payment book in 2012, has 5700 hrs right now on it, other than a water pump and 1 final she's been a very faithful machine. Looking for an 822-830C leveler at somepoint.

Firewoodjoe

I'm so ready to just trade this old stuff in and get a fast 8 wheel forwarder and a leveler harvester of some kind but man I'm slowly getting some where with this old stuff. I hate to go neck deep in payments. But man it gets old wrenching. At least maybe it would be nice wrenching on something clean and shiny lol

BargeMonkey

Joe after the week I've had with my mechanic I'm ready to go sign my name at CJs for new iron and watch the guy starve to death this winter, about how I feel about turning wrenches anymore. 

Firewoodjoe

😂 well new stuff breaks to. Talk to a guy last week with a 2021 and it was down. Part wasnt on the shelf either. I was just looking and not many levelers used right now. 

fluidpowerpro

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on July 18, 2022, 04:19:34 PM
Well I was expecting today. Side hill boom out swing lever to the right. Wouldn't swing up hill. Just sat there. While holding it I hit other functions and it would start to swing. Then I backed up and blew, what hope to be a hose, next to the main valve stack. I just got it off the hill and left. It's all so hot I couldn't get in there to look.  🙄
By no means do I know that hydraulic system but with what you describe, its a load sense system.
The swing section on the directional valve has the type of compensator that is set limit the max pressure for that function.
If you operate only the swing, the max pump pressure is only as high as set by valve section.
When you operate multiple sections/functions, now the pump pressure will go to whatever pressure the highest load is requiring.
Now, because your pump is being told by the other section to go to HP, you have enough pressure to move the swing.
I would look at the section compensator in the swing section. 
The next place I would look at are the sense checks.
Most load sense valves use a system of small check valves (often called "sense checks") that are used to communicate to the pump the load pressure in each function. When multiple functions are operated at the same time, the highest pressure is the one that gets to the pump control. If any dirt gets in this sense check part of the circuit, it will cause issues.
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Firewoodjoe

Wow thanks you. That will require me doing some homework as you sound a bit out of my league lol

fluidpowerpro

Then again, I might be wrong.  :D

If you have a hydraulic schematic of the machine I would be glad to take a look. 

You can send it to me via my email thats shown in my profile.

Tom Eull
Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Firewoodjoe

Ok. I'm looking at my book. It is load sense and has the load sense block on the side of the pump. Which also has a horsepower limiter on the same block. The trouble shooting section says it's the load sense, the horsepower limiter, the sytem safety relief valve is stuck or the main pump is junk. So I need to get the leak fixed then pull the filters so that's out of the way. Then what? Pull the load sense and be sure it's clean or sticking? 

Corley5

If you can afford an old harvester, you can afford a new harvester ;) :) :)  All these things are why I'm no longer involved in primary harvesting  :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: Corley5 on July 18, 2022, 07:40:31 PM
If you can afford an old harvester, you can afford a new harvester ;) :) :)  All these things are why I'm no longer involved in primary harvesting  :)
I dont believe that for one minute. Not now after owning one. Even down time and parts it don't cost be $3000 a month on the bad months. Price a new one. And they go down to. Then your big money! Yes there's risk with any machine and if your not mechanical at all don't buy a old one. I've never had a mechanic on my job. It's all me or the help of forestry friends. I know new one that's are sitting because there lemons or they can't even get the parts for them. At least this old stuff there's usually salvage/used parts around. It's preference of getting dirty or spending thousands per month in payments. 

Firewoodjoe

And this machine is still cutting wood every day. In a year of owning it the longest I was down was 6 days and that's was days past the second worst break down. Also I have hand cutting trees to fell so I save them. I've never lost production. Reminder this has an estimated 36,000 hours. There all junk and there all good. 

Corley5

Lost production plus the cost of repairs adds up to $3,000.00 in a day.  Buy new and get in to another one before the warranty is up.  I don't buy your argument for a minute either.  Been there done that  :D :) :)  
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Firewoodjoe

Sorry you had such bad luck. The most expensive part I've bought was $900 for that machine. So production loss was $2100. I wish production logging paid that much. I would have a new machine.

nativewolf

We're just not good mechanics so we like to be in new (with service plans to boot and extra warranty).  

Mostly it lets us know almost exactly what our costs will be.  We can still tear a couple of hoses on the harvester head (today's joy) but we have a hose kit standing by for that and it took a bit more than an hour to swap those hoses.  The costs are quite a bit higher than $3k though, more than 3x that but it is a beast of a machine and so comfortable to ride- luxurious even (seat is amazing, oven, fridge, top shelf radio etc--- yeah I don't get to drive that one)

Joe good luck on the hydraulic situation.  Sounds as if fluidpowerpro has some good tips, I have none, just best wishes on getting it cutting again.   

Liking Walnut

fluidpowerpro

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on July 18, 2022, 07:28:05 PM
Ok. I'm looking at my book. It is load sense and has the load sense block on the side of the pump. Which also has a horsepower limiter on the same block. The trouble shooting section says it's the load sense, the horsepower limiter, the sytem safety relief valve is stuck or the main pump is junk. So I need to get the leak fixed then pull the filters so that's out of the way. Then what? Pull the load sense and be sure it's clean or sticking?
Before you tear into anything it would be best to have an idea what to tear into first.
Basic troubleshooting applies to hydraulics just like most other things.
First you need to tell it to do something.
Then verify its receiving the command.
Then verify its acting on the command.

I would be glad to try and help but that works out best using email, text or talk.

Send me a PM and we can share info.

Change is hard....
Especially when a jar full of it falls off the top shelf and hits your head!

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: nativewolf on July 18, 2022, 10:35:02 PM
We're just not good mechanics so we like to be in new (with service plans to boot and extra warranty).  

Mostly it lets us know almost exactly what our costs will be.  We can still tear a couple of hoses on the harvester head (today's joy) but we have a hose kit standing by for that and it took a bit more than an hour to swap those hoses.  The costs are quite a bit higher than $3k though, more than 3x that but it is a beast of a machine and so comfortable to ride- luxurious even (seat is amazing, oven, fridge, top shelf radio etc--- yeah I don't get to drive that one)

Joe good luck on the hydraulic situation.  Sounds as if fluidpowerpro has some good tips, I have none, just best wishes on getting it cutting again.  
Oh it will be cutting wood today. It cuts everyday. I'll do all the first steps in maintenance and diagnostics according to the book then go from there on the weak hydraulics. I've already cut and forwarded a weeks worth of wood ahead so I can tear down my forwarder bogies. That's the project that has to get done. But may give me "free" time to diagnose the harvester a little more. 

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: nativewolf on July 18, 2022, 10:35:02 PM
  The costs are quite a bit higher than $3k though, more than 3x that but it is a beast 
Yeah my actually cost with insurance is a lot less than $3k per month if down time and parts aren't included. I could park both my current machines and hand cut with my iron mule and make all the monthly payments.    I know what those things cost. They are nice I will say that. You ponsee guys and your "ovens" lol

Firewoodjoe

We'll just a $50 pilot hose blew for the tracks. Cut wood for awhile and blew another hose. Both hoses were old and worn. But is it a coincidence or the pressure gremlin acting up 🤷‍♂️ Just cut wood and keep the fun going in between  😂

teakwood

Hey Joe, i'm impressed by your progress and wish you all the best. Hang in there, you will succeed! 
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: teakwood on July 22, 2022, 07:43:46 AM
Hey Joe, i'm impressed by your progress and wish you all the best. Hang in there, you will succeed!
Thank you! You gotta love it or it won't work. I'm getting someplace. Every year I'm better off but a guy just questions his motives sometimes. I'm I a mechanic or a logger lol but unless you keep new under warranty then you have to wrench on something. And I do like every aspect. Even wrenching. Thanks again.

barbender

If you are running mechanical equipment over about 3 years old, the answer to the question, "am I a mechanic or a logger?", is,"Yes"😊
Too many irons in the fire

Log-it-up

With owning older equipment I always thought I was a full time mechanic 🧰 with a logging problem 🤣

BargeMonkey

 I still think the reasonably priced iron that you can still half work on is the way to go, even higher hours. The 5yr old stuff that some hours scares me alot more than a 20yr old machine with high hours. 

Firewoodjoe

The low hour stuff worries me. I always think why would someone sell something that's barley broke in? Then the ones with 10-15,000 hours are mostly original and will be ready for major parts soon. A lot of ctl guys here won't run a harvester to 10,000 hours for that reason. I actually have good luck buying the high hour stuff. I was told years ago by an old logger that if it made it that long its a good one! 😆 its all a gamble. A new ponsse was down two weeks ago here 🤷‍♂️ I know I personally don't even look at them with 10-15,000 hours. Then there's still things I'd like to have some kind of history on. Engine pumps and bogie bearings. Etc. The problem I have with high hour stuff is a lot of logger shouldn't be allowed to fix stuff lol and chasing the wrong things that aren't even broke just done wrong gets old also. History is a big thing.

barbender

Amen on a lot of loggers shouldn't be allowed to fix stuff! I've seen guys putting hydraulics back together with dirt everywhere, when I tell them that we should clean it up they say, "that's what the filters are for"🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

Yeah. I have to remind people all the time. Filters are a false sense of security. It's only on the return side. It has to be pumped through the hole sytem BEFORE it hits the filter. 🤦‍♂️

BargeMonkey

 Filters 🤦‍♂️.... mechanic at the dealer decided the O-ring was optional equipment and just sent it anyway. 


 
 You guys in the lake states have better iron to choose from, better dealers. If I buy anything GREEN for forestry the tech will probably come out of Maine. I'm not getting rid of my fulltree stuff just because the CTL horror stories scare me, ProPac will still run with zipties and glue holding it together. 

Firewoodjoe

It's really not that bad. There mostly stories. I agree each machine is more complicated due to the fact it's doing more than one job. So more on one machine but less machines overall. But at the end of the day it's engine, pumps, valves and some wiring. 🤷‍♂️It's all the same. I honestly don't see a huge difference in equipment. They all have there problems. 

BargeMonkey

It's the lack of support out here Joe, what scares me. Kind of why I'm looking Fabtek / Timberking / Cat for a forwarder. Those 646s like you've got are rare here, being all mechanical would sell me on one. Friend of mine just put his 860.4 up for sale, he likes it but says it's just not for him, he's got a tigercat skidder and slasher, selling his 608L and going for a newer 830. 

Firewoodjoe

You mean dealer support? That's not so bad. My equipment dealer is in the UP and I'm in the Lowe peninsula. And most good mechanic can work on them anyways. Yes I would recommend a simple one. Your already use to a TIMBCO. Get one with a fabtek. Only thing is the little monitor and the wires going to the head. Supper simple once you know them. I have all my parts shipped to me and I'm the mechanic. Me and the forum lolthere's a few older TIMBCOs popping up for 50-70,000 that don't look bad. 

Firewoodjoe

Also if that little computer goes bad you can buy a new updated one for about $3,000. They have one encoder. Simple. 4 wires there labels and light up. One saw homing sensor. Simple. 

Firewoodjoe

This is the measuring encoder. 4 wires and there labeled 🤷‍♂️ Three more for to the saw homing sensor and that also has a light on it. Don't be scared barge 🤑

 Nothing wrong with tree length I always liked it. But things aren't cheap and I don't think that's going to go away and by the sound of it your usually working alone. Ctl is great alone or with one guy. Or girl. Lol another thing to think about is selling your equipment. Do you think that tree length equipment will still be sellable in the further or should you trying dumping it now while conventional crews are still in need. Think fuel. Those slashers, hotsaws and pulling smoking skidders should be dying off. Eco mode forwarders will be the norm. 

BargeMonkey

 I'm sitting back watching, McCoy in MI has a couple nice 703s / 622Bs, I want a danglehead, and the aftermarket parts support from Axis forestry is impressive. I'm going to burn that Tigercat note in about 60 days, see what fuel and wood prices are and get serious about shopping. My on-road diesel price is just over 4.00 right now, it's coming down just the general public isn't seeing it as fast. 

Firewoodjoe

Quote from: BargeMonkey on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 AM
I'm sitting back watching, McCoy in MI has a couple nice 703s / 622Bs, I want a danglehead, and the aftermarket parts support from Axis forestry is impressive. I'm going to burn that Tigercat note in about 60 days, see what fuel and wood prices are and get serious about shopping. My on-road diesel price is just over 4.00 right now, it's coming down just the general public isn't seeing it as fast.
I know some people running 703s 616s and 622s. There good but have there own problems. Wiring, valves and fuses are out at the head. Which is good and bad. I believe one of those fuses is about $500. He still goes through hoses. They were popular here for awhile. Until people started running the barkos. More people buying new have ponsse and barko now. Except the diehard Deere guys are running 1270s. But keeping new ones. A few 803s still around. There just to big for our area. 

quilbilly

I was in the processor with a fella the other day, he had run south star, waratah, and ponsse and liked the head the best. H8 or 10 I think. Ponsse equipment though I haven't heard great stuff about. Got a friend that runs a forwarder and it's always broke down chasing electrical issues. 
a man is strongest on his knees

Firewoodjoe

Well it's taking me awhile to diagnose this and still cut wood. Like I said before it's not terrible when it's bad. 

Anyways. I keep going back to the load sense and a few days  ago I adjust the lid sense just a fuzz. Machine worked great! For a few days. So today I played with it more. If I adjust it a very small amount lower it will go to slow and sluggish if I turn it back up it works very well but a tad jerky. 

Question is, is the load sense valve bad or something else? 
And if I run it like this will it damage something else? 

My understanding is, it's not affecting the main pressure. It has a main relief for that.  And will cause it to be slow or jerky and may cause the engine to work too much and hydraulics to heat up if it's set to high. 

I know I should be doing better diagnostics but I'm just out here cutting wood and playing with things rather than park it to do it right🤦�♂️

mike_belben

No one can really tell you anything precise without a schematic for that machine.  Theres just too many ways to build a hydraulic machine for guessing well.  

Praise The Lord

Firewoodjoe

Right I understand. It's a lot of shooting in the dark. But there's only one load sense. 

barbender

Have you checked your pressures when it is being sluggish?
Too many irons in the fire

barbender

I am by no means a hydraulic expert. But one thing I know would help a lot with diagnostics is a hydraulic pressure gauge in the cab. On the Ponsse forwarders, the loader hydraulic valve is right in front of the cab, so I would attach a pressure gauge and get it rigged up so it was visible as I was operating the machine. That was handy when I was working by myself.
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

Not ones I can see from the cab and not on the main pressure side. Only the pilot.  It has power but you have to trick the swash plate into stroke. By running two functions. Which is what the load sense does.  So I don't think it's a max pressure problem. I've been running it all day now with the load sense bumped up and it's been great.  

Firewoodjoe

I don't know much about hydraulics either. I look at some diagnostic like this, if an engines rods are knocking why do a compression test 😂 

prolly not a good way to look at it. 

barbender

I've got a leak on a load sense hydraulic line before. It doesn't have to be much, just enough for the pressure to drop and things get weird😁
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

Your comment got me thinking I could have a internal leak O-ring valve who knows what and I am just turning the load sense up making up for the leak/bypass 

mike_belben

Theres probably a dozen places where the swash plate control pressure could be bypassing.  Kinda like valve bodies on automatic transmissions. If it aint leakin on the ground its pretty dang hard to find the leak. 
Praise The Lord

Skeans1

Quote from: Firewoodjoe on February 07, 2024, 04:10:44 PMNot ones I can see from the cab and not on the main pressure side. Only the pilot.  It has power but you have to trick the swash plate into stroke. By running two functions. Which is what the load sense does.  So I don't think it's a max pressure problem. I've been running it all day now with the load sense bumped up and it's been great. 
That sounds more like a stuck relief or a particle in the relief or compensator of the valve vs a load sense issue.

Firewoodjoe

Honestly nothing would surprise me. It's old. Next to rebuilding the hole system you just have to run it. It's very tolerable and I'll keep working at it. 

But over the last two years and between my trouble shooting manual and the mechanics I don't think it's a relief. 

And it is a load sensing pressure compensated sytem but aren't the pressure compensating valves on each working spool valve? Don't they just make it so one function doesn't over pressure when another is calling for more? 

The pump itself won't stroke up when needed. That's why it's narrowed down to the load sense. 

mike_belben

If i understand them correctly isnt there a main spring inside the pump that forces the swash to full stroke mechanically?  Could that have broken?  
Praise The Lord


mike_belben

Praise The Lord

kiko

When two functions are required to bring the pump on stroke, the issue is usally in a resolver.  The resolver is a check valve the blocks the the load sense line to make it build pressure when a function is called for.  In this kind of system the check will be in order so usally the last  function valve  that works and will stroke the pump on its own is where the problem lies.  All functions down stream will not stoke the pump on their own.  Can you send a picture of the pump and its adjustments and which adjustment you turned to bump up the Load sense? 

Firewoodjoe

I threw the book pic in just for reference. I already had it on my phone so why not. 

Firewoodjoe

The red is the load sense line going into the valve stack. I couldn't get the phone around the pump good enough either. The book pic helps that.

Oh and the arrow is the one I adjusted a bump. 

30dodgeboy

If you change hyd filters, I'd recommend opening up the old one.

Filters can't keep secrets if you open them up and look inside :)

kiko

With load sense/  horsepower control bumped up, does it still require dual function to operate or did that straighten out that issue as well?   You would know if you turned the LS too far, it will draw the engine down when operating. 

Firewoodjoe

I did not touch the horsepower valve at all. And yes, every function has enough power by itself. I can hear the engine more now, but I wouldn't say it's bogging down. It's not smoking or anything yet.

kiko

It would be normal to hear the engine load some what especially when working more rhapsody one function.  Sounds like you got it.  Just watch the temps as summer comes on.

Firewoodjoe

Thank you. Time will tell. I think I'm just paranoid and being to observant but the temp was running 150 last few days. I know the radiator is dirt from winter use. I do t wash them out until spring. Well it's been 40-50 degrees. I'm sure that it. And I feel like the joy sticks get stiffer like the pilot pressure is to high. I'm sure there's multiple problems with the old girl. I'm going to run it. Wash the radiator and give it time. 🤷�♂️

barbender

Sometimes you can't fix something until it breaks, even though you know something is out of sorts🤷
Too many irons in the fire

Firewoodjoe

Well I'm going to flush the load sense line a few times over the next few weeks/months and run it. But I don't think what I did is the cure. It's seems like the problem is still there but covered up. Or more tolerable. 

Firewoodjoe

A little update. I've installed a gauge for the main pressure. Seems fine. Runs about 4500 when using all the main functions. I've adjusted the pilot up a bit and played with the load sense. It's definitely better at this point. I'm guessing it's all just worn and old. (No that can't be 😂) but what I'm wondering now is if there's an adjustment for each function that controls speed and sensitivity kind of like the load sense adjustment. Most of the machine is fine but with the load sense turned up to make the hole machine good the left swing is very aggressive. Like I have to be careful multiple functioning as when I stop my second function while still swinging left I feel like it's going to blow/bust something. Is this the compensator valves? Or metering valves? Still cutting wood like she always does! Just trying to make it a little better. 

Firewoodjoe

Well this week we have a cold snap. And this morning the left swing wouldn't even move. I held it a second and it took off. So very sluggish. Run it a few times and it starts working fine. Right swing and everything else was fine still. I'll have to read my book again and see what going on there. Definitely more than one issue to solve the hole problem. Prolly should call Rolland back now that I have the gauges on. But I'll keep picking at it when I feel like it. 

Thank You Sponsors!