CTL Advice

[stavebuyer]

I have a close friend who owns a sizable circle mill and is thinking that he will probably need at least one of his contract crews to be CTL. This is SE KY and NW TN. Mtns aren't tall, but limestone cliffs and overhanging ledges are everywhere. Cable Skidders, dozers, and tandem trucks are pretty common. I am familiar with the Timbco cutters and stroke de-limbers like Barge runs but the new Ponse type rubber- tired processors and forwarders I don't have any first-hand dealings with.

Most likely if he does something it will be new or very late model as his mill is already more or less dependent upon standing timber. The upside is the area has many large-acreage private holdings that are managed for timber sales. The downside is topography and county roads system. Oak Hickory, above average DBH and equipment needs to be able to handle clear as well as select cut harvests. He is leaning CTL basically because it would appear to reduce the crew to a man in a processor cutting and bucking and man in the forwarder puts it to the road. Hand felling in KY the insurance runs more than the wages paid and it is getting impossible to find that man at any price. Pulpwood is sold double bunk and tree length. Occasional stands of Short-leaf pine and Hemlock which mostly go for pulp



Oak/Hickory sawlog timber 22" DBH average tree but plenty of 30"+ DBH Oaks and Hickory in the mix and many of the TIMO sales require everything be felled even if its not skidded out.

What would you buy, what will it do in a day and how many SGU's would your recommended system cost? The equipment salesmen will tell us what we want to hear. I would like to hear from the "been there and done that" folks both good and bad experiences with CTL in hardwood sawtimber.

[barbender]

With timber of that size, in challenging terrain, I would be leaning towards a tracked base processor. Fixed and dangle head both have their strengths and weaknesses. A Ponsse H8 head can handle wood up close to that size, but it probably takes a more skilled operator to make it work. 

One thing to consider with deciding to choose between a track or rubber tire processor- you have to follow it with a rubber tire forwarder either way, so you can't just charge up the side of a hill with a track machine and lay wood all over as your forwarder may not be able to climb it. A rubber tire machine is far more agile and can drop trees and quickly drag them back to a point the forwarder can reach and process them there. Personally, I would go the rubber tire route more than likely as it is what I am more familiar with, but if someone is starting from scratch I'm not sure which would work better. I would certainly try to find CTL machines of both types working in similar wood somewhere that I could observe firsthand before I made a decision!

[Firewoodjoe]

Big trees, big hills, money no object. It would be the widest, heaviest, self leveler I had the closest dealer for. With a big dangle head. 8 wheel forwarder. Also wide and heavy but not so important as the harvester. You'll still need a man on a saw sometimes and find a good enough crew to run all that efficiently on hills and grade trees. Me. I've broke everything so I'm going home for me and the iron to cool off. 🤦‍♂️

[stavebuyer]

Is the limiting factor for larger hardwood the processor head itself or the size of the carrier? The Timbco will fell a much larger tree than it can wrangle but you really don't need to do much "bunching" with 30" oaks anyway  :D

[Firewoodjoe]

The head.  But you want a solid machine with hills and big wood. It takes some talent and deep pockets to cut large high grade with a harvester. Either it goes well, the butt log is junk or the machine takes it. 🤑

[snowstorm]

yes on tracks lots of hp and the biggest heaviest undercarriage you could get. red yellow or green and timber pro would paint it whatever color you want. yes on the big dangle head. the only h8 i have seen work was on a eltec tracked machine. i was not that impressed with. the eltec was a demo they owned a deere with the 622 talking with the guy that ran both he preferred the warataha.  quadco has a vid on you tube of a timber pro with a big keto head working in tn of ky. cutting big hw. i know the guy that filmed it and thats him talking. 

[snowstorm]

870 keto 36" tree easy. one reason for the tracked machine they usually have much more lift power. and because of that you want a big strong head. big will not have the feed speed but it makes up for it in power. and were as if fed wheels spin on the tree they can dig holes keto uses tracks they seldom spin

[Firewoodjoe]

624 or 626. 3/4" saw. H8 is 404. H8hd is cutting for the same mill I  am. It works. 

[BargeMonkey]

I'm to poor to talk about buying the fanciest stuff but I've been borderline asking the same questions, planning a trip to McCoy equipment in a bit, 703J / 622B Waratah, used 6 wheel 456 TimberKing / 564 Cat forwarder and wish it the best, I'm just going to post pictures when they drop the stuff off. As much as I hate to say it CTL makes sense 75% of the time. 

[barbender]

The track machines have massive slewing power, as well.

[Firewoodjoe]

The track machines have massive slewing power, as well.

At the moment mine don't lol

[Firewoodjoe]

I'm to poor to talk about buying the fanciest stuff but I've been borderline asking the same questions, planning a trip to McCoy equipment in a bit, 703J / 622B Waratah, used 6 wheel 456 TimberKing / 564 Cat forwarder and wish it the best, I'm just going to post pictures when they drop the stuff off. As much as I hate to say it CTL makes sense 75% of the time.

I've heard mixed opinions on both the 703 and the cat forwarders. But you here stuff about everything🤷‍♂️

[stavebuyer]

I saw one of the early wheeled John Deere machines with a dangle head processor delivered new on a tract across the fence circa 2006. Everyone was as green as the paint on the Deere, and it was an un-qualified disaster. Not sure who was responsible for the cutting head.

The forest service has expressed interest in a pilot project on the Daniel Boone. My uninformed opinion was the boom length on a wheeled machine would be handy in select cuts, but if it lacks the grunt of say a 425 class tracked machine then it's not enough machine as the 425 is marginal in this area.

I think the driving force is that although in today's "market" you may be trying to run at $200/mbf a couple years from now it may be between government/insurance/labor your either CTL or backyard part time and the market will pay the cost or collapse as their will be no alternative.

[Firewoodjoe]

I saw one of the early wheeled John Deere machines with a dangle head processor delivered new on a tract across the fence circa 2006. Everyone was as green as the paint on the Deere, and it was an un-qualified disaster. Not sure who was responsible for the cutting head.

The forest service has expressed interest in a pilot project on the Daniel Boone. My uninformed opinion was the boom length on a wheeled machine would be handy in select cuts, but if it lacks the grunt of say a 425 class tracked machine then it's not enough machine as the 425 is marginal in this area.

I think the driving force is that although in today's "market" you may be trying to run at $200/mbf a couple years from now it may be between government/insurance/labor your either CTL or backyard part time and the market will pay the cost or collapse as their will be no alternative.

I think the driving force has been insurance and labor for years. Guys around her made the switch 20 years ago. Now with fuel the reason is even more. And marketing. Used to be one or two sorts now we market 3-5 sorts per species. That's not possible with a conventional crew. 

[BargeMonkey]

Lack of labor, point blank. I can't put a stroker +3 skidders on a postage stamp landing, I can do it going CTL. Use my Hood / Barko to load a trailer and go. Insurance and fuel, what's motivating it. 

[nativewolf]

There is a team in Northern Alabama cutting in that size hardwoods with Ponsse h8hd and elephant forwarders, if they want to visit there I could arrange that for them.  Or, they could come up to northern VA and run ours for a day, same thing, ponsse bear with h8hd.  Our forwarder is old though, 2008 and 22k hrs.  I would like the new k121 crane which has much more punch than the k100.  We really struggled to load 30' WO bridge timbers with our forwarder if they timber was much over 20" at the small end.  I think  Timbco/timber pro would have done that with ease.  However, they don't have the bunks to forward them out.  Right now we're just doing YP and we'll be here for weeks to come I guess as I take a few weeks off to have the colon cancer removed.  

However, we've done lots of mixed hardwood stands.  I can say there are several several small mills moving to bring CTL crews in house- from Florida pine mills to CO mills.  

I would also agree that the larger harvester heads hanging on a tracked carrier might make more sense if you have large acerage parcels.  We don't.  So roading the harvester and forwarder is a really important ability.  

Lots of heads larger than the h8hd - like the Ponsee H10 or the Keto snowstorm suggested.  All the same you'll want to handcut the veneer stems if they are like our- the buttress is an issue and you lose footage.  

[Skeans1]

If it was me in that situation if it wasn't one of the large dangle say a h10, 624, 625, 626 I wouldn't bother with the dangle head you're not gaining or looking for reach with that type of thinning. Look for something like a 735 with a fixed processing head like a Logmax 7000xt from memory it's the largest out there with lots of support for them. There's lots of reasons for a fixed head in those situations as well one is it's really easy to set up something for a cat or skidder, you have a head that lift/pull you around, and in hardwoods they can be hard to beat for the control.

[Firewoodjoe]

If it was me in that situation if it wasn't one of the large dangle say a h10, 624, 625, 626 I wouldn't bother with the dangle head you're not gaining or looking for reach with that type of thinning. Look for something like a 735 with a fixed processing head like a Logmax 7000xt from memory it's the largest out there with lots of support for them. There's lots of reasons for a fixed head in those situations as well one is it's really easy to set up something for a cat or skidder, you have a head that lift/pull you around, and in hardwoods they can be hard to beat for the control.

The 7000xt is gaining popularity here in Michigan as well. I didn't thing they cut as big DBH but maybe. I love my fixed head for the smaller wood but larger stuff you have to track around two double cut vs dangle you can kinda reach around in the same spot. I've never ran a dangle but watched many. Those guys love them. 

[Dom]

Tigercat track carrier and logmax 7000 heads are popular around here.
Topsaw is an advantage for hardwood, it was not standard on all Logmax heads.

I haven't been around a new Tigercat track carrier, but mechanics loved them back in the day. It was possible to walk around the engine and pumps, good amount of room, big machine.  

[barbender]

I've never got to run a top saw equipped head, but I can see where they would save a ton of time in hardwood. Otherwise you spend a lot of time spinning the head 180° so you can cut the stem next to a big limb or crotch. I can't remember the measurement offhand, but from the top knife and then 38" or something. That's how we do it with a non top saw equipped dangle head. I would think the topsaw would be about mandatory on a fixed head, as they would seem to me pretty cumbersome to use that method on. It costs enough time with a dangle head.

[Skeans1]

If it was me in that situation if it wasn't one of the large dangle say a h10, 624, 625, 626 I wouldn't bother with the dangle head you're not gaining or looking for reach with that type of thinning. Look for something like a 735 with a fixed processing head like a Logmax 7000xt from memory it's the largest out there with lots of support for them. There's lots of reasons for a fixed head in those situations as well one is it's really easy to set up something for a cat or skidder, you have a head that lift/pull you around, and in hardwoods they can be hard to beat for the control.

The 7000xt is gaining popularity here in Michigan as well. I didn't thing they cut as big DBH but maybe. I love my fixed head for the smaller wood but larger stuff you have to track around two double cut vs dangle you can kinda reach around in the same spot. I've never ran a dangle but watched many. Those guys love them.

Cut capacity is 32 on one so it's not bad, I've ran both and in big wood you're doing the same thing walking in front of it to put a face in then walking to the back of it starting it then letting go. What guys love is the speed and how you can be lazy with them well processing before they had floating rotation on the heads or full 360. To me a top saw is something I doubt I'd ever have on a head it's one more place for something to get bent or jammed up well cutting, have you ever had a piece of something jam into the saw box so hard the saw won't run? I have, or it bends the bar plus you have to support what you're cutting it's not my personal preference.

[chevytaHOE5674]

Local guy has a TigerCat rubber tired machine with a Ponsse H8hd head on it and it can hammer out the wood. Has the ponsse head speed and accuracy and the crane slewing power of most tracked carriers. It will swing big hardwood around without worry. 

In our limby hardwood a top saw is a great addition expecially when you start cutting into the tops chasing that 4" top for pulp.

[Firewoodjoe]

I've never got to run a top saw equipped head, but I can see where they would save a ton of time in hardwood. Otherwise you spend a lot of time spinning the head 180° so you can cut the stem next to a big limb or crotch. I can't remember the measurement offhand, but from the top knife and then 38" or something. That's how we do it with a non top saw equipped dangle head. I would think the topsaw would be about mandatory on a fixed head, as they would seem to me pretty cumbersome to use that method on. It costs enough time with a dangle head.

That's how I do it. Works fine. I would think a top saw would be nice but like skeans said. More problems. 

[Firewoodjoe]

@Skeans1 at what point will a tracked leveler not climb?  Like say a tl735? What percent would you say it will just walk up and down and work with no problem? Do they do a lot better than say a ergo or bear? I'm guessing you have more hill experience than most of us lol

[Skeans1]

@Firewoodjoe 
I've 35 or so degrees without a line on the back, the tigercat 830's are what I've been around the most will do that depending on the ground conditions. I know they cut steeper without the yo yo line, but anymore you pretty much have to have the line to go any steeper because of the rules. Something else to think about is most of our stuff is setup with a road on the top of the unit on steep ground so there's good lift for the cable shows, so typically there's no escape out the bottom what goes down must come back up the same way. As far as steep ground equipment goes the best thing that was made for it was the Allied/Washington buncher a they'd go steeper then the new bunchers without having a line on them.