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Design student needs help with developing new forestry product

Started by lewuk, December 23, 2009, 03:05:39 PM

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lewuk

I am a Product Design student at Nottingham Trent University, UK, and am designing a new product for the forestry market. The wheeled, carried or worn container will hold all or many of the tools required for small and medium-sized tree felling for woodland management rather than commercial felling. The carrying aid aims to make the process of transporting equipment from a vehicle to the site of work more efficient, if there is some distance between the two. Often several trips are needed, and using a wheelbarrow, crate or bag have their problems. The device can also provide a means of keeping track of tools.
If anybody could suggest any ideas or answer a few of my queries it would be a great help.

1. Can you associate with the problem described?
2. Do you think a product is needed to address such a problem?
3. Would you favour a wheeled, carried or worn device for carrying equipment?
4. Would there be any particular features that would be beneficial on the product?
5. Could you imagine each employee carrying their own equipment or a product that caters 2+ people?

I have developed some concepts already but would like to hear your initial thoughts. Any other details that would help develop the product would be extremely helpful.

Thank you,
Lewis

BcWoodWorks

Hey Lewuk,   8)

Welcome to the forums.

I don't know much of anything about felling, but I did see a couple points I thought I would point out to you.

Firstly, the problem with a wheeled equipment carrying device is that it has to cheaper than an ATV, but still strong enough to carry the heavy stuff in and out. Also, if it has to fit where most other machines won't; that means it needs to have a relatively small wheel base to get around logs, etc.

How do you plan on keeping track of tools? I've seen an ad for an RFID system in the new Ford trucks, but being the doofus I am, I have no idea what that would add to overall production costs, if you wanted to use said RFID tool tracking.  ???

Worn and carried also present their problems. You don't want to overload the feller/woodlot owner too much; seeing as how generally most guys I know with money to spend on such a system are middle aged, or older and I'm sure would like to do as little physical work as possible in regards to the toting of stuff.

Lastly, there was a show on Discovery where a group of nerdy dudes invent stuff. One episode they took on the challenge of designing a wheeled, motor driven mobile carrying platform for use by the San Fransisco Fire Department. It had a short wheel base, and could climb stairs. Plus when you got to the top, you could refold the tool rack into a stretcher to carry people back down. Perhaps that would be another avenue of approach for you.  ???

As I said, I have no logging experience, or knowledge. I'm just a 20 year old dude, but I thought I'd point on out the obvious.  :D

Captain obvious over and out  ;D
Alec - Woodworking rookie, and Private in the United States Army.

"Safety first, impressions last. Remember it." -Swampdonkey

SwampDonkey

I cut brush for most of 6 months of the year with a clearing saw/thinning saw we call them, and most of us just carry a cloth toolkit that you sling over your shoulder. Most of the distance in any one trek is when you complete a strip that could be up to 600 meters long and you carry your tools out with your gas, water and saw. Your saw has nice handle bars to attach your jugs. It's a little awkward, but gets the job done. We keep safety trails open to walk in and out without stepping over brush too much. Most times we are only about 300 m from a road. Most of the time I leave saw and tools in my strips for the evening and only carry out gas and water jugs. I bring the saw out on cold fall evenings so the throttle don't freeze up if it rains/snows.

Welcome aboard and best of luck with your product design.  :)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Kevin

I use a vehicle to carry my equipment into the woods and can carry everything I need from there with my two hands.
Crews that work in the woods don't have money to spend on an item like that but you could target utility companies, something on wheels that could adapt to winter conditions.
Best of luck.

Texas Ranger

There is a two wheeled carrier, man drawn, that hunters use to haul game out of the woods.  Fairly simple, fairly large wheels, light weight, not to wide.  Might be a start.

http://www.elk-hunting-tips.net/game-hauler.html
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Kevin


Maine372

most logging in my area that involves had falling is one man operations with a cable skidder. so the skidder is always nearby and it carries all your gear for you.

i have worked ahead of a skidder and discovered the hassle of keeping everything i need a)handy b)not where im gunna drop a tree on it and c)where the skidder wont run it over.

the simplest option seems to be a belt pouch (for wedges, files, scrench), and belt loop (for a wedge pounde), and gas and oil either in a combi can or two one gallon jugs tied together.

this is very chainsaw specific and has its downsides. i personally dont like the wedge pouch because it gets in the way when i get on the skidder.

i worked one summer marking boundary lines somtimes nearly a mile from the nearest road so going back to the truck to fuel the saw was out of the question. i used a pack frame and a bungee cord to hold a gallon each of gas, bar oil, and water.

so heres what im thinkin for your project. some sort of rigid frame pack that can be worn to pack supplies in, or even durring the work. it should be able to hold:

gas
oil
tools: round file, flat file, scrench, allen or torx wrench, file guides
first aid kit
spare chains (mabey someway that they arent all tangled)
water and a snack (preferably away from the gas and oil)

mabey have it waterproof for those rainy days but washable cause the woods are dirty.

thats my thoughts. good luck with your project.















Kevin

This is something that might generate more demand, I put this together yesterday to transport my new logrite cant hook and axe but you could design something modular that  you could add on other features and make it adapt to tractors, atv's and skidders.
The back box holds the cant hook and the front box holds the axe.
It would have to be tough and be able to take a beating in the bush.



this might be better than the hanger extender  ;D

beenthere

Kevin
Seems we need to see more that is outside this pic. I'm curious as to what it is hanging on, but do see a tip of the logrite at the top.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Kevin

It's on the cargo rack for the argo.
The hook isn't in the box because it's too long to put in there while the argo is in the trailer.
Next time I get to the woods I can get a better picture of it.
The logrite is just strapped to the top of the rack because I just got the box finished yesterday and installed today.

Ron Wenrich

It seems to me that a wheeled device would be just another piece of equipment to drag into the woods.  What has worked best for me is when you can pack something in, by putting it on your back.  You can distribute the weight much better.

I'd start with a lightweight rack, and add some compartments for the things that Maine 273 has suggested that he packs in.  You could add rigid, detachable containers for the liquids, for easy use.  A rigid pack for the first aid.  A flexible pouch for the miscellaneous stuff, but have separate compartments to keep things in.  Add some bungee strapping for some odd type of stuff that you want to pack in, like an axe.  Add some bright colors so its easily seen in the woods.

I'm not sure about the need for such an item.  Some guys are sloppy and lose things in the woods.  Keeping everything organized would surely help out those folks.  Others might just like it because everything is organized.

If you keep things compact, light and low cost, there may be a market.  The more the cost, the less likely it is that someone will fork over any money for it.  Woodsworkers are an ingenious, tough lot.  They often work in harsh conditions and comfort isn't one thing they normally seek. 

Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Stephen Alford

Most woodlots that I work on require crossing crop land. Generally you can access by staying on the headland.  The Equipment is left in the woods out of sight.  Because of our clay soils there are a lot of days when the only choice is to walk in. Landowners seem to appreciate  it , using their land is a privilege not a right. I use a cart to carry fuel ,tools etc from the road to the landing. I believe that heavy tool belts over time contribute to back spasms as they can restrict circulation. For most this may not be an issue. If one were to design  something for this , use of reflective material might be a consideration. Good luck with your project.  :)

logon

Woodhog

I could see something working that was custom built for carrying all the stuff . It would have to be carried on the back around here as you cant wheel anything around the woods with all the rocks, stumps and debris that is laying around.

something like those professional hikers wear, a rigid back pack frame with custom built carrying pockets, snaps, and belts etc...
When I dont have the ATV and walk in  I have the gas jug slung over my neck on an old strap, try to carry the saw on my hip, stick a chain oil 1 liter bottle in my pocket, have a small back pack on my back with all the first aid, saw repair stuff, files ,lunch and human fuel,  wedges stuck in my back pockets, log  hook on a belt around my waist.

It works until I sometimes trip and fall or slip on the ice..

You cannot leave anything in the woods around here or it won't be there the next day between the bears and the  human animals that are always out roaming around looking to supplement their welfare  or EI checks.

Yes  I need something better for sure.. but if it costs too much money I may as well stay home and put my feet in the oven.

Tillaway


The ultilty companies may be interested and there would be a use for something like that for wild land fire fighting.  That may be the best niche market.  Packing umpteen thousand feet of hose, fittings and ecetera is a huge chore. 

It would have to be designed to function on slopes greater than 30%.
Making Tillamook Bay safe for bait; one salmon at a time.

ARKANSAWYER


  When I log I carry my stuff into the woods in an old Army ALICE pack with frame.  I put wedges and tools in the pouches and fuel and oil inside the pack.  It carries well and holds everything.  I can lean it up agin a tree when I get to where I am felling.  Here it would be hard to pull any thing very far into the woods.  Some loggers here use ATV's with racks front and back to carry their gear in.  The winches help if you hang a tree.
  I guess I am not much help but a pack frame with a shelf and straps to hold fuel and oil and pouches for tools and chains would be  a usefull  tool.
ARKANSAWYER

aksawyer

the secret to my success is '' mans best freind''.Yes i let my buddy pack in our lunch,wedges,spare chain.i have a small pack that sits out on the saw blade to off set the saw head weight.He waits at the set off spot and watches the wild life as I work.He is a 94lb. Tibbetian Mastiff and he carries about 30lbs.He loves the deep snow and very cold weather.Finished our ice road down the Tanana River this week.Hope it doesnt warm up this week.Only 7 below today.Aksawyer Fairbanks ak god bless merry christmas

lewuk

wow thanks everybody, great response. it's all been very helpful.

Cheers Stephen Alford, you raised some good points, especially about when conditions force you to walk rather than drive in, and about the health problems of carrying loads on the back. I saw your wheeled hand cart photograph in the 'tool belt idea' forum. Very impressive! Did you find the big chunky wheels of a lawn mower and the bucket of a wheelbarrow offered the means of transporting your equipment?

It was definitely the style that I imagined this product would be. Alternatively I was thinking of a wheeled luggage design that you pull behind you, having larger wheels for the terrain and a large waterproof internal compartment for housing the tools.
It's interesting that some of you have resorted to making your own equipment, is that due to the failings of products on the market, or that all foresters operate differently and have preferences?

However sounds like a backpack-style design would be better suited, although it would lack many of the features that I'm striving for. 

Hope you can offer me lots more useful information, as I'm sure I will get a great project/product out of this!

Thanks for all your messages of support. Happy Christmas!

Stephen Alford

Hey lewuk, the cart like everything else in my life is a work in progress.  So tell us a little more about yourself, where your from? whats your forestry conection ? :)
logon

Jeff

Wally merged his carrier with mine this fall for a day.

Made for an easy haul.



Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

timberjack240

im in the same boat as maine 372  everyhting satys on the skidder or the skidder brings it to you and sits it close when i leave i thro my saw over my shoulder along w my coats and lunch box if i eat inteh woods.. my gas and oil is eitther tied together or i run my belt ttru the handlesof the jug my files and saw wrench get stuck in my pockets along w my wedges unless im not wearin my carharts then i have a wedge pouch (carhart has deeper pockets) sorry i cant help.. but keep us posted cause i wouldnt mind seein how you make out w it .. i never seen or used anyhting of this nature so im intrested to see what you come up with  good luck

Rick Alger

My experience is pretty much like Maine 372 also. I think a back pack is the best option. I would figure on hand carrying the saw. I would like square cornered jugs for gas and oil and a closed compartment for lunch, first aid kit,  cell phone and toilet paper.

Interesting idea.

good luck

timberjack240

i was always taught that the toliet paper goes to the woods before your chainsaw  ;D

lewuk

haha yeah forgot about the toilet paper! a very essential item!

I've got a pretty good impression now of how you want this product to operate. It sounds like the way you work is quite different from how I imagined to the product to be used. The use of a skidder and carrying much of the equipment with you is not something I've experienced, as we tend to do smaller felling tasks, and woodland management tasks. However the product is not solely for my use, so it's been very helpful to hear how forestry is done on a larger scale.

What do think of these considerations so far?
Tools to be carried- flat file, files, vise, marker spray, screw driver, combi-spanner (torx wrench), wedges, sledge hammer, timber tongs, timber tape, fuel/oil can, felling lever, spares, first aid, water, food, and toilet paper.

The materials used would be resistant to UV (sunlight), fuels/oils, chemicals, organic solvents, water, impact, and fatigue. They should be inflammable, withstand abrasions and atmospheric temps.
Also relatively lightweight, inexpensive, and an opaque finish. (Some of these properties are more related to a hard plastic container design.)

Some features of a rigid container-
High-visibility orange appearance, stackable, wheels, webbing to hold waterproofs, a waterproof compartment, a vise mounting, handles for lifting and a seat for breaks.

Some possible extra features-
a combination lock for security, some lighting for dark conditions, water container, cooler box for lunch, toolboxes
Other considerations- the product should not be over 25kg to carry, or 55kg to lift

However it could be a backpack styled design, as has been mentioned. This does seem more popular with your way of working.

Cheers, hope you can give a little more help.

A bit about me, I'm a student in England studying Product Design. I've been doing forestry work part-time for around 6 years, so have some good experience of the way we work but not so much of the industry as a whole. I chose to design something for foresters as I identified the carrying of equipment as a problem, and hope to produce a good solution. I'm sure I will with all your great suggestions.

Thanks   

charlieh

Hi Lewuk

not sure how much kit people carry really being an issue, i carry my files and spanners in the space in  my combi-can, wedges etc are on my belt kit with tape and tongs and first aid kit, and i slid my felling lever through the combi can handle to pick it up between work areas so im not bending to pick the can up all the time, and if im a distance from the truck between meals then a small camelback for liquids, so the only thing i have to pick up when moving work areas is essentially my felling lever and saw one in each hand for balance, i wouldnt want to be pushing a barrow around with me in the undergrowth and brash, even if everything was loaded in it. Please dont take this as negative as im just trying to be constructive on my thoughts on the subject,

what would be really handy is something that would sit on an atv arch frame for example, as used by several small scale woodland workers, for carrying food, combi-can and a saw mounting for transport with a vise on it for sharpening, as the biggest issue i have is carrying everything on the bike easily in one hit, especially if driving to site on the bike, and not going in my landy

hope this is of some use (im just up the road from you in Staffs, UK)

Charlie

motohed

I have thought about this , and like some of the ideas others have had . I think a modular desigh back pack ,with a fuel can ,bar oil can , a modular tool box for a chain and sharpening kit , just big enough for the esentials , also a modular lunch box, and water pack ,along with a modular first aid kit and a safe way to carry an axe or felling lever and wedges . It would have to be light and comfortable . Maybe with one of those cargo type stretch nets to carry your coat or what ever in or out  . A dry place for a cell phone or two way radio would be nice . most of all it would need to be durable and not junk especially on the gas water and oil containers they should also be easy pour , with out spilling or making a mess . It would also be nice to have a saw rest ot the straps both sides that protect your neck and keep the saw from sliding off your sholder while walking , also the pack should stay put also , if you've ever carried a saw for a long ways you would appreciate this last request . I will now think on this subject a little more . ;)

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