iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Well, i went mad.

Started by Satamax, July 30, 2020, 03:17:28 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

GRANITEstateMP

Y'all just hurt my brain. The mouse up there read this, looked at the pictures, then got off his wheel and went home!

Hakki Pilke 1x37
Kubota M6040
Load Trail 12ft Dump Trailer
2015 GMC 3500HD SRW
2016 Polaris 450HO
2016 Polaris 570
SureTrac 12ft Dump Trailer

Satamax

Thanks a lot Mike. 





I am a bit overwhelmed by all this. 



About the outfeed  conveyor, it runs all the the time yes. 



One thing you might not know. The splitting cylinder is kind of automatic. When you bring the saw back up, it splits the wood. But can be overriden by the  manual valve. Either to split the last log, or logs that you feed directly in the splitter, or to stop when something is wrong. 



The infeed conveyor valve isn't functioning. If i raise the saw halfway then feed in it, it feeds. But that doesn't matter too much. You can't feed while lowering the saw, because of the mechanical window around the joystick. 



I hadn't seen the problem on valve ten. But you're right. There is a bit of the schemo missing. But it seems corrected on page 25. The cylinder has a second pushing chamber. As it seems. Of which hydraulic fluid must come back to tank through the valve on the right. Which if i understand correctly is one way in.  And hydraulic fluid push the pressure limiter, when being pushed back by the rod side of the big cylinder. How's that? Sounds plausible? 



Valve 9.4 and cylinder #5 i have no problem with.  I think it is built as  keeping always pressure on the blind side, so the  wedge can't be pushed downwards. 





Valve 9.5, is something i don't understand. 



Well, i think i was misreading it.  What was giving me grief is this cross line. 





 



But i think i get it.  



At standby position,  The flow is blocked, but  on the rod side, it's open directly to the tank side. Which might be somewhat pressure "held" by valve 17.  And the 100 bars on the blind side, act just as a spring for that residual pressure. 



When you insert the left drawer. It blocks all flow to the rod side, and lets all the rod side fluid to the tank line. Well, may be there is something else happening at valve 17, which drops the pressure furthermore?  Because it seems quite equivalent to the previous position, if you don't have either a pressure or flow limiter on the return to tank line.   I think that's when you need more pressure on the clamp. Being given bi the 100 bars on the blind side. 



When you insert the right drawer, it's pretty straightforward, blocks all return line on the rod side, and sends all pressure to it. 120 bars fighting with 100 bars. = 20 bars to open the clamp.  



The cylinder is a 32/20-100 



Blind side is 8.04cm²,  804 kilos on that side. With 100 bars. 



Rod side is 4.9004 cm²  x 120 bars  that's 588.10 kilos. 



There is something very wrong there either in my theory or my knowledge.  



Stumped again! 



But there is one thing for sure, the machine not powered, i can move  the clamp by hand, and i can feel it loosing the hydraulic fluid.  
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Quote from: GRANITEstateMP on September 10, 2020, 06:43:52 PM
Y'all just hurt my brain. The mouse up there read this, looked at the pictures, then got off his wheel and went home!
Thats about how i feel about sports.   3 seconds, look away.   Now sports illustrated swimsuit edition otoh, i'll stare a little longer!
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Max, i will need a little while to marinate on your post and get back to you.  I was making an edit this morning that got lengthy and will paste it here in the meanwhile.  

Also i think ive been looking at the stopper circuit incorrectly.  But i cant find any good pictures on its construction to be sure. Here is the cut/paste

------------------

Pretty confident that at low pressures the exhaust flow from valve block 9 goes to valve 17 and then travels down the pink line to join up with the flow at pump 1, then enters the splitter valve for high volume low pressure.  When pressure crosses a threshold the poppet unblocks the tank path and reveals it to pump 2 but not pump 1 so all you have is pump 1's flow to the splitter.  So 17 is an external unloader of pump 2.  


 In "cheap" splitter pumps its common to have two tandem pumps -a big and a small- married in one case with one simple unloader, and one common inlet and outlet port.  The issue is that you have no access to a stable single volume flow.  The entire output is a two stage that will shift to lowgear [unload the big pump] whenever you hit threshold pressure.  You cant use that flow for hydraulic cylinders or conveyors without suffering from dangerous sudden speed shifts.  A conveyor would probably keep the setup in low flow all the time so you need an additional pump for non two speed components.  


What palax has done here is smart, it allows them to have a two stage flow to the splitter valve while also having the use of the high pressure pump for other functions.  And im guessing on which pump is which, they list pump 1 as the high pressure and pump 2 as the low pressure.  Well, the low pressure is the big high volume gearset typically.  Thats the one you unload as soon as you hit a knot so the engine doesnt fall on its face.  This drops the power demand down from say 25hp to 7hp because only the small pump is engaged and it doesnt take much ponypower to get to 200bar with a tiny pump to bust the knot.  As soon as pressure drops, the big pump joins back in and shoves the ram through fast again. 2 speed pumps look like a stall out or struggle when you watch the cylinder move but it isnt. Its a gear shift and a delay as the pressure rises against the load until it defeats the load and goes fast again.


Anyways they have pump 1 as 200 bar and pump 2 as 120 bar.  That suggest pump 2 is large and pump 1 the smaller but i kinda doubt it.  That would mean theres say 25+ gpm going through valve 9 to run the cylinders.  Mmmmmmmm.... Idk. theyd be pretty hard to control.  I would design a wedge height adjustment and a log lift & clamp with 3-6 gpm for safety and controllability.  So im saying the relief valve pressures on the schematic MAY be mixed up.  Its possible.  It does make sense to unload the big pump as they have it drawn, but its strange to make it also a controller for precision movements of small cylinders.  


One way to check would be to stroke the splitter without a log, and use the log lift at the same time.  That will cut pump 2's flow out of the splitter valve while in use.  If the ram drops to really low speed immediately then pump 2 is in fact the big pump.  Losing the small pump will probably be nearly unnoticeable at low pressure. 

There is a chance neither is big or small i guess but in the photos it sure looks theres a monster first section. 
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Big pump is also the main splitting one. 



 

How they make the two speeds is not as you think. The cylinder is "double" there is an outside envelope working with the 200 bars from the big pump.  But there is a small cylinder in the bigger one, there just to push the bigger one into contact. That's all on page 25 of hydraulic manual. Or at least that's how i understand the thing. 


French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Quote from: mike_belben on September 11, 2020, 09:09:55 PM
I now have 4 manuals on a machine i dont own.  Its getting a little excessive.  :D
Right click, send to the bin!  ;D Easily sorted! 
I have ordered an hydraulic cylinder, see if that fixes the thing. 
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flowfit-Hydraulic-Double-Acting-Standard-Cylinder-Ram-32mm-to-125mm-Bore-Option/283781394718?hash=item4212b0711e:g:GkkAAOSw8LNeRStR
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Morning max.  The forum kept timing out on me yesterday.  So lets see here...

QuoteOne thing you might not know. The splitting cylinder is kind of automatic. When you bring the saw back up, it splits the wood.

Youre right, thats news to me.  i dont see anything in the overall hydraulic schematic ive been scribbling on that would do that.  Is it a solenoid control or some linkage that didnt make the sketch?  



QuoteThe infeed conveyor valve isn't functioning. If i raise the saw halfway then feed in it, it feeds.
I think i saw mention in one of the manuals on maintaining adjustment of the safety valve up on the saw arbor somewhere.  It should be the 2 position on/off valve left of the conveyor motor up top in schematic.
QuoteValve 9.4 and cylinder #5 i have no problem with.  I think it is built as  keeping always pressure on the blind side, so the  wedge can't be pushed downwards.

All D/A cylinders will lock in position when they have closed work ports at the valve, free of air inside and the valve and packings dont leak.  
QuoteValve 9.5, is something i don't understand.

Well, i think i was misreading it.  What was giving me grief is this cross line.
9.5 is a screwball because of that seemingly pointless cross line and perhaps there is detail missing that would make it logical.  That valves center position has no port drawn at the top left and a blocked port at bottom left so its a branch to nowhere as drawn.  If they mean it connects both sides in one of the shifted positions they shoulda drawn it in the side box(es).



but since it's cylinder has fluid from pump 3 on one end and pump 4 on the other, which seems to have no control valving (!!!) i have been saving that for last until i had a better understanding of the layout for the log clamp parts, all the stuff i asked a few posts ago.  Without seeing the machine myself there are just too many variables for me to assume wrong.
QuoteBut there is one thing for sure, the machine not powered, i can move  the clamp by hand, and i can feel it loosing the hydraulic fluid.

Well that is no surprise, look at the blue path from the cylinder headed back to the right.  Theres no valve to hold the fluid in.  If the machine is off youre forcing fluid back through the pump to the tank plumbing, according to their print.  Far as i can tell the pressure from the pump running at 100 bar is what holds it down.  The defeated conveyor brake may be contributing but hard to say from here.  Its spring return would act like an accumulator in the circuit, but not without a valve.  
The way theyve drawn it pump 4 completely deadheads against valve 12, the conveyor brake and log clamp any time its running, at 1450psi.  The relief poppet is the only path to tank.  



If your drop table is welded solid then that gives you a spare valve on pump 2.  I would just plumb the work ports off valve 9.2 over to the clamp cylinder to fix that.  
Then youve got pump 4 serving no purpose.  The conveyor brake is disabled and you really dont need the log stop dance.  I would just plumb pump 4s output back to tank or through a cooler or something.  Maybe use it to power a trommel in the future.

QuoteHow they make the two speeds is not as you think. The cylinder is "double" there is an outside envelope working with the 200 bars from the big pump.  But there is a small cylinder in the bigger one, there just to push the bigger one into contact. That's all on page 25 of hydraulic manual. Or at least that's how i understand the thing.

Ofcoarse its the very last manual i try to find the right page 25  :D
I did see that cylinder once the first day and looked right at it but didnt notice the two stages.  My head was in a spin trying to figure out valve 17 and the apv.  And at this point, i dont care.  The splitter works.  Let palax come here and explain it to us all!  
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Thanks a lot Mike. Don't worry too much. There is stuff i don't understand on this schemo. But the stuff i don't understand functions.  ;D

The page 25, sorry. 

Here you go. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Yeah thats the one.  For some reason your imagines come up much clearer than the ones in the .pdfs.  I cant upload screenshots either unfortunately, my phone saves as a png and the forum rejects them.  


Anyway i looked at that cylinder one time and thought how am i supposed to figure this out.. They didnt draw the actual port to cavity connections.. Then i moved on to other sections.  



So is ditching pump 4 and using the dropper plate valve to run the log clamp an option?
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

That 2 stage piston is sort of a missing link to explain what first appeared as an odd pressure and sizing on the 1st and 2nd pump.  If the machine used one big standard ram it would be but the double piston changes everything.  

I will guess that they extend only the inner bore to move fast and weak until encountering a knot, when the valving switches the flow to advance the big [slow and strong] cylinder and the small one within it simultaneously.  Then you only have to move a big ram for an inch or two of difficulty which is actually brilliant.  But complicated as we can see.  


That "extra speed/oil" #17 valve i still think is the overall combiner/unloader of pump 2.  My scribbles are somewhat wrong but its this image.  





At low wood resistance/ low fluid pressures, the relief valve spring blocks the path to tank. The flow from the exhaust side of valvebank 9 comes in from the top, heads south and hits a wall, so it unseats that checkball, circles the block and heads south down pink street to join pump 1 in splitting.  

When the wood puts up a fight and the pressure rises on the pink line, it forces the closed relief to compress its spring and open, revealing the tank passage only to pump 2 and only for the instant that the wood is talking back. This just drops the flow and HP requirement momentarily so the machine doesnt lug or trip the breaker.


The sketch on page 25 only shows a singular pump feeding the splitter valve so i guess its been simplified, by palax standards!


Praise The Lord

Satamax

The cylinder i have ordered is a smidge too long!  :(
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

 The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Mike, it's the physical size of the cylinder which is too big. But not by much. I just have to redrill the original cylinder mount on the frame. But i need to find two  screw nipples, to connect before. I have split a truckload last evening.  And the shear bolt of the log stop broke again! :( It doesn't take much. It's an M8. And i would be really happy if the wiggle dance of the log stop would start again. Otherwise, i find it pinches the blade if i'm not careful, to leave one inch between the stop and the log. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak. 


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  









You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.

Praise The Lord

Satamax

Quote from: mike_belben on September 18, 2020, 09:13:32 AM
Quote from: mike_belben on September 18, 2020, 07:18:53 AM
Try hooking your existing clamp cylinder to directional control valve 9.2 from the drop plate just as a test.  


You can leak plenty of fluid out a blown rod gland seal, that has no effect on the piston seal. The unit will still have nearly full force.  My forklift sprayed oil out the rod seal until i changed it, and still lifted everything.

The clamp circuit is jacked up more than the leaky clamp cylinder.  Put it on a good circuit.  9.2

I meant your old cylinder.  If that schematic is correct, i expect your new cylinder to do the same thing as the old, except leak.


Mount a spring bar for the log stop.  Either a mudflap mount or hay rake tine.  









You can tack weld the coil to a 1" bar.  Or just dangle a chain like everyone else.
I think i can see what you mean with the spring. Why do you want me to mount the leaky cylinder on the circuit for the drop plate. I already have the cylinder there, the original one. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Youre misunderstanding me.

You are having a problem with the clamp cylinder because it has no valve and requires everything else in that system to work, which doesnt.  Your conveyor brake is messed up and your log stop too.  Thats why the clamp is messed up. And i cant tell you exactly how to fix it from here.


Your log clamp cylinder would be powerful and hold right if it was connected to a control valve with fluid behind it.  You have an unused valve in in the #9 bank if i understood you correctly, that 9.2 cylinder is just hanging there disconnected because the log drop table is welded up.  So disconnect it and plumb that valve over to the clamp.  Presto. Working clamp. 
Praise The Lord

mike_belben

Praise The Lord

Satamax

Nope Mike, it's been raining, and i haven't had time to do anything. 

Sorry. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

Well, autumn arriving, i did split another truckload Today. 


What i noticed, is that the infeed conveyor stops a bit, most certainly due to the stop conveyor valve. But it doesn't seem consistent. And i know why i broke the shear pin of the log stop last time. If the log falls down badly It gets stuck between the log pushed which surrounds the cylinder, and  the log stop. Resulting in shearing of the log sto shear pin. 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

A typical truckload. 

My tipper is 11' long 6.6' wide. I fill that on 3' 4' in a pile. 



 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

mike_belben

Well, it makes nice firewood.
Praise The Lord

Satamax

Doesn't look too shabby. Yes! 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Satamax

I think the soft starter has taken the plunge yesterday! :( I have enough power to wire direct. So i'll try that.  And may be make a wye delta  box, with timed  relays. (contactors?) 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb dead as of 06/2020. Replaced by a Brimont TL80 CSA.

Thank You Sponsors!