Daily production

[brdmkr]

Well, it looks like I am just going to miss the Expo in Moultrie :(.  However, I noticed that I could access my first copy of sawmill magazine 8).   There was an article in there on daily production rates that made me feel much better about my own production when sawing alone. 

If I remember correctly, one of the examples suggested a day where the sawyer averaged around 70 - 75 bdft/hour working alone.  Another where he averaged about 200 bdft with a couple helpers.  These averages included everything, log handling, stickering, log cleaning, etc.

I don't saw very much for the public, but when I do, I want it to be as profitable as possible, while providing a good product at a fair price (probably the same with most here).  I like to saw by the bdft; thus, increasing my daily total production is about my only option.  Right now, about the best I have ever done for a daily average when sawing alone (doing my own stickering, log loading, offbearing, etc.) is around 100 bdft/hour for properly staged logs at a well prepared site.  I don't really know how I would do if I could 'get after it' with a couple of helpers.  I have run the mill with others helping, but we weren't really going for productivity as much as fun.  Because I saw for others so infrequently, it is really not possible for me to have a helper on a regular basis.  I know that some require the owner of the logs to have helpers there, but that is really not an option for me unless it is a really small job (I have to cut when I can, evenings, Saturdays, etc.).  So, I am pretty much a one-man show.

I have a Lucas 618 and I like it plenty, but I am wondering about what some of you guys use who also saw alone.  If you have special log/lumber handling equipment, I'd be interested in hearing about that as well, especially how you feel it adds to your production.  I may be wrong, but once logs are staged on some sort of deck and a place to sticker lumber is well prepared, I don't see much else I could do to speed up production with my current mill (short of having a helper or 2).  I know that dimension and species play into production rates, but that is not really what I am interested in.  What I am trying to understand is what is reasonable to expect when sawing alone with a mobile mill.  Also, I have played worked with DanG's mobile dimension and I think it truly is a one-man saw (and could really have some impressive daily production rates), but while you could certainly take an MD on the road, I would only want to move it for a pretty big job.   

The reason I am interested in all of this is because I am wondering about some of the features on some of the mills and whether or not that those features would actually improve production for a person sawing alone.  For instance, with a band mill, would going from a 25 hp gas engine to a 50 hp diesel provide any benefit for a sawyer working alone?  Or, would going from a Woodmizer LT40HD to a Super appreciably increase productivity when sawing alone? 

I am sorry for running on, I am just trying gain a better understanding of the relationship between sawmill types, sizes, features, cost, and productivity for a one-man show.

[Brad_S.]

IMO, one thing that greatly increases production is having a mill that can saw and return without you walking with the mill. While the saw is making it's cut, you can be pulling, stickering, stacking, cleaning up, shooting the breeze with the client, etc. This usually involves some sort of remote control box or operators station and is pretty standard on most manufacturers upper end models.

[Bibbyman]

We've went from a manual LT40 w/18hp engine to an older Super HD with 35 Wisconsin and then to the mill we have now – LT40HDE25 with accuset, dragback, etc. There has been an across the board (excuse the phrase) increase in production with each upgrade. 

However,  it's only when we have three people working the new Super that we really start to use it's potential.

There is still a lot of material handling with any of the models.  And I got to admit being able to get the Senior Citizen's Discount most of the time without asking.  So,  we'll saw about the same in a "day" but often our workday is only 5 hour long.

We have the Command Control with our 2002 WM.  And it does work fine with two or more people.  I don't see it as a big advantage with one person – at least the way we're setup.  We are pitching our slabs out the back door so you cut a slab, then walk up and pull it off and stack it out the back door,  walk back and make the next cut.  I found it just as convenient to just walk along and take care of the offbearing.  Besides,  when sawing grade, you can keep watch on your "face".

We have an edger and that also works fine with two or more people.  But one person saw and use the edger to it potential.

In short,  I think a standard LT40HD would produce as much lumber in a day as you want to handle.

Now if you had a power infeed deck and some kind of power conveyor out to a power green chain,  then one person could use the speed of a Super or LT70 – but you'd have to stop every half hour to hour and reload the deck, clear off the green chain, stack, sort lumber, edge, get rid of slabs.   At the end of the day you may have two more boards. 

[Brad_S.]

We are pitching our slabs out the back door so you cut a slab, then walk up and pull it off and stack it out the back door,  walk back and make the next cut. 

I think that may have more to do with gig back technique than set up. I raise the head up and gig back over the slab or last board, start my next cut and then deal with the previous board. (I know most of you WM guys stop the blade and gig back on the same plane you just cut on.)  Admittedly, unless you have dragbacks, you are making your next cut sight unseen on that face, but by reading the board I just cut, I can usually see when I'm about to lose grade and in that case I start taking boards off after a cut but before gig back, in case I need to turn the log. I'm not a fan of dragbacks because I edge on the mill and want to keep my flitches on the log to drop them onto the arms, but if using dragbacks, you are able to see the face for the next cut, start the saw into the cut then stack that board that just came off.
If I'm sawing through and through, (i.e. barn siding) I may gig back twice and pull 2 boards off at a time, weight allowing. Saves a couple of steps. Most of my sawing is done on location and have the customer tail each board off after the cut though.

Of course these options are a moot point with the Lucas, but I believe Peterson now has an auto advance head and drag back, don't they?

[Bibbyman]

When sawing farm lumber, we'll often square down a log and then saw "through and through" the rest of the cant (that's sawn down to target width) and then drag the whole stack off the mill.  That saves some time and maybe a few steps,  but then you've got 6-10 boards to pull and stack.  There is still a lot of material handling.

Now that we've repaced the 12v pumps with a power unit,  we can run the HD anywhere.  So when we're done with the last cut,  we can un-clamp, drop down a bit and drag everyting off.

[SawDust_Studios]

When I just recently upgraded from my LT40HD to the LT40SH, I ran the numbers in an excel spreadsheet using what I thought I should be getting out of the SH on an average day. 

I used 400-450 bf/hr as a rough estimate with 2 men. Using these numbers, a super is much less profitable with one man at say 250-bf/hr.  So, going to a super, your better off having help.   We have an edger as well, so its easy to have 3 people to really get the productions numbers up.

[brdmkr]

These are just the kinds of answers I was hoping for.  I am really starting to think about what is required to improve production.  As I look at the advertised production rates, I realize that those rates assume you have everything you need to keep the blade in wood.  That includes off bearers, log handling, etc.  Bibby, I really appreciate the comment that an LT40HD would likely produce nearly as much as a super if there is just one person running the show.

What about the differences in HP?  Can one person benefit from going from 25 hp to 50 hp, or will the 25 work about as good during the average day?

Does anyone have any ideas for the swing mills regarding increasing production when sawing alone?  I know the ASM has a drag back, but I'd be interested in hearing from those with manual swingers. 

[SawDust_Studios]

My last mill had a 25hp kohler.  I can tell you sawing by yourself, that thing had plenty of power and a fast enough feed rate to wear you out at the end of an 8hr day. 

I can't imagine sawing byself for a whole day with a super, things are just moving way too fast.

[pineywoods]

I'm speaking one man bandmill operation here, but I'm sure this will apply to swingers as well.
When we start talking production, it is natural to concentrate on sawing. Most any of the mills used by FF members will do a nice job here. The real production killer isn't sawing, it's material handling. Loading logs on the mill, turning, pulling off slabs and removing them, pulling off boards and stacking, getting rid of sawdust, etc. I do my edging on the mill and find this to be a real production killer. Put a stopwatch on sawing just one log, from the time you get the log out of the pile until the last board is stacked, the slabs disposed off and the sawdust removed. You'll probably find as I have that less than half your time is actually spent sawing. Anything you can do to cut down on the non-productive activities will pay much bigger dividends than trying to speed up the sawing process.
As far as equipment::
#1 on the list is some kind of forklift, skidsteer, farm tractor with forks, even a tractor with     homemade forks on the 3-point hitch will make a big difference. 
#2   bunks for the slabs, raised off the ground so the forklift can get under the slabs.
#3   hydraulics
#4   sawdust blower
#5   edger
#6   a rack full of pre-cut stickers

Extra horsepower is way down on the list. It will pay off if you have a couple of helpers, but for a one-man operation it doesn't make that much difference.

Log bunks--- Sure you can load logs on the mill quicker if you have a bunk, BUT if you shut down the mill to load the bunk, what have you gained ??

pull-back  Nice if you have a helper to deal with the board, but if you have to leave the mill idleing while you go stack the board, what have you gained??

[solodan]

The real production killer isn't sawing, it's material handling. ................. You'll probably find as I have that less than half your time is actually spent sawing.

I couldn't agree more.
I have a Lucas 827. For me the best production  comes from the medium sized logs 30" to 35".  In that size range I am probably spending the best amount of time actually sawing. Small logs eat up too much time setting up for with  a swinger, and the really big ones (over 50") take up to much time in planning.For us guys out west, most of us are sawing large softwoods, and 16 footers are the most common. I think our average production for  a one man operation is probably slighly higher than someone from the east coast. But then you have lumber value to consider. My business is not in the quanity of  lumber, mine is more in specialty beams and accent pieces, so I rarely look at my production rates. For what it is worth I have sawn 500bf/hr by myself, 8) but I have also sawn 10bf/hr. : I have sawn 600bf/day with a chainsaw mill before, but I think it took me a day to recover from the fumes and the dehydration. ;D

[Tom Sawyer]

I am working on a business plan right now so this is helpful information.  I anticipate cutting about half time on my own and half with help.  I will be charging by the hour and prefer not to sticker, but I will at the same rate.  Clock starts ticking after the mill is set up the first time and continues as long as I am working (not including repair times!).  So, I will buck, trim, move logs, stack and sticker and whatever else the customer wants me to do for my hourly rate!  I have over 2 years experience cutting for another guy and this system worked very well.  Most guys had nice piles of logs ready to go!  I am leaning toward an LT40 Super with Command Control.  Here are my reasons:

1.  Potential for high production when customers are supplying helpers (saves them money)
2.  Command Control for working alone.  Dragback boards and stack them while mill is making the next cut.  Don't need to chase the mill every time.  I get more cut in a day (less fatigue) which again means more value for customer.
3.  Potential to be flexible to convert to high production stationary setup.

[tcsmpsi]

I don't go in depending on human assistance.  It is helpful and generally gets a bit more done, but I never depend on it..in anything.

I find, in the 1 hp (human power) scheme, that the actual sawing is a necessary rest from the handling.  I don't think I would want to speed that up too much.   ;)

I toss the slabs from 3 or 4 logs out of the way of log-loading and lumber-offing (drive side of my manual bandmill), then stack the slabs.  Finally having a good supply of stickers has helped.

I will like having a deck for the logs, and am looking at building a handy portable rig for that, as well as a stationary one.

Where I have found that having a human helper is the most beneficial, moment for moment, is in stickering the lumber.

My production is at its most titillating when I have multiple days consecutively (though I've never had more than two) that I can run the mill stuff.    ;D

[Brad_S.]

Tom Sawyer,
I charge by the hour for all the same reasons you're talking about plus a dozen more. The thing I do different is charge a mileage fee of a dollar a mile to get there and then the clock starts the second I pull into the customers driveway. Set up is on the customers time, teardown is on mine. The rational is that I wouldn't have to be setting up if I didn't have to move to their site, so he (or she, I have had a fair number of women hire me) needs to cover that time. I have also been on some jobs where there isn't a flat piece of ground to be seen, so the set up took some time in order to block up one side of the mill while excavating a depression for the tire on the other. This all takes time that you shouldn't have to swallow, IMO

[tcsmpsi]

Well, Tom Sawyer, I can appreciate the hourly rating system.  Not real fond of it, myself, but have used it and can appreciate it.

Though I haven't used it in sawmilling, I certainly have in hiring out myself and other tools and equipment.  My time (if 'by the hour' is how it was arranged) starts when I hit the site with whatever tools/equipment the job requires.  If tools/equipment need onsite repair/adjustment, that time goes right along. 

Part of that hourly 'wage' is being used to pay for the equipment.  It takes LOTS of  partial hours to pay for tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, which eventually wears out and has to be replaced....with more tens of thousands of dollars of equipment.

The other side of that coin, is that I never showed up to a jobsite with neglected or otherwise inferior equipment, so it is as fair as it comes for the time to keep rolling while doing repair on equipment.   After all, you're still having to pay for parts/supplies, etc.

Fair is equal opportunity. 

[Modat22]

I'm only getting around 50bft per hour by myself, Most of my slow down is getting logs on the deck using chains and a really slow boat winch.

[brdmkr]

I have to agree with all comments regarding material handling as being the limiting factor when operating alone.  Right now, I just don't see how I could appreciably cut down on this.  I have my logs bunked at the mill and a stacking site for lumber nearby.  Perhaps a huge supply of pre-cut stickers would speed things up some, but there would be time spent cutting those in advance. 

It seems that the only thing on the mill that stands to up production when sawing alone would be a drag back feature on a band mill (Assuming everything else is hydraulic).  Does anyone with a swinger have anything to suggest that I am not considering?  I absolutely understand where Solodan is coming from with the log size.  If I can get logs above 30", I can really cut down on the log handling and I seem to get better production, but most of the logs I get are generally around 20" at best.

[Part_Timer]

Brdmkr

I have the 25hp ats so I'm not to far away from what you have.  I'd say a typical day for me by myself is 150bfh.  

Here is what I have done to help increase production or decrease fatigue.

1  make a good set of bunks and have a set of ramps for log loading.  having bunks that are too short or ramps that are not heavy enough was a problem for awhile.  Now I have a set of 5x8 bunks and a set of good 1 1/2 x 8" ramps.  Proper size notches also helps

2. tailing right into the pickup so I don't have to handle the pile two or three times.  I move it right up beside the mill then go to where I stack the lumber.

3.  I keep a cut list on a clipboad attached to the mill upright.  that way I can look over at it while I'm setting the size for the next cut and not trying to remember what was next.

4.  I have a small pouch attached to the center unit push handle to keep wedges is.  That way I'm not trying to get them out of my pocket or loosing them.

5.  I changed the nuts on the blade guard to wing nuts to speed up doublecutting.  Won't help you much but might help someone else.

6. Sharpen often.

7. I move my sizing stop for the next cut while I'm pushing the blade through the horizontal cut. Saves an extra step when swinging the blade.

8.  Keep you end skids for the uprights as close to the log as possible that way you don't have any extra steps before you can swing the blade.

Horsepower is a big help.  I had a customer show up for training that had an ATS just like mine but it had a 27hp on it.  The differance between my 25 and his 27 was the differance between night and day.  I would never have guessed that it would have made that much differnace but next time I'll have one.

Don't know how much it will help but hope you find some of it usefull

[brdmkr]

I may need to try the higher bunks.  I could see were that would help.  Currently, I don't use ramps.  I have the logs on runners that are the same height as my bunks.  I just roll them in.  I could also see where having a pounch on my carriage would come in handy with wedges and a tape measure.  I too adjust for the next cut while cutting in the horizontal.  Of course, if there is a big difference between your 25 hp and a 27 hp, I can only imagine what the difference might be for me using an 18 hp.  Of course, I don't think an upgraded engine is an option.  Didn't someone here post concerning electric winches to adjust height of the carriage?  I wonder if that resulted in a production increase???

[BigTrev]

I've always been a really hands on type guy with milling and an electric winch is something I wasn't a big fan of till I used one. :D After one afternoons milling with that little gadget on I sure turned around. The rate the mill lifts and drops is pretty much the same as with a manual winch but the fact you can do it without walking around is cool  ;D

[Dan_Shade]

anything that saves you walking will save you time.

[Captain]

Talking swingmills a bit, there is a huge difference between the walking required with a Lucas/Peterson ATS style VS a Peterson WPF style.  SO much less walking, and even better with electric vertical sizing.  The WPF also gives you the option of working waste or boards over the low rail, where on an ATS or Lucas you are limited to mostly working oput the ends of the mill.

My favorite feature on the ASM while working alone is not the board dragback, it is the "auto pilot" mode I cheat the mill into when working alone.  I'm pulling a board while it is cutting, similar to you bandmill guys.  Much faster and easier to handle than the board dragback.

Captain

[metalspinner]

I've got  a question that I forgot to ask Teenswinger when he was here...so I'll ask everyone... ;D

Let's say we are quartersawing a log with the swing mill. After the first triangular slab is taken off the left hand side, could you then make an eight (or ten) inch horizontal cut, then roll back the carriage and release your boards vertically by cutting on the push stroke, move over a board thickness, then release a board on the pull stroke, etc.... for the eight or so boards?

[brdmkr]

Metal spinner,

If I understand your question, I don't think that will work as the blade will be spinning in the wrong direction to cut vertically on the push cut.

Captain, that is a really good point you make regarding the ability to adjust up and down at the carriage.  I could see where that would save a heap of time.  I could also see where the ASM would really speed things up by allowing you to remove a board while it is in the cut. 

[Tom Sawyer]

Brad S.  I never had a jobsite that wasn't easy to set up in more than 2 years of cutting.  I expect that when it happens I might rethink charging for setup time.  Just trying to keep things as simple as possible.  If the customer knows beforehand what they are paying for and get no surprises at the end we should both be happy.  I think that as long as I am fair to my customers they won't object to paying a fair price. 

[Captain]

Metalspinner, brdmkr is correct, that is a climb cut (pushing the blade while it is in the vertical) and to be avoided.

Captain