Stationary CSM Build

[subarctic_moose]

Hey all, hoping to get some advice on building a stationary setup CSM. My though is to build a non-portable version of the Procut mill using angle steel tracks and a wood base. Ideally the track length would be 24' to allow for cutting 20' Timbers.

Here's what I have now:

• 661 / 42" bar
• A decent number of railroad ties
• Some KD 2x12x12s
• 6' lengths of 1.5x1.5x1/8 angle steel
• A friend with an LT40 that can mill 6x6s

I'm thinking that I can lay the RR ties out every 3' to create a level bed for the tracks. At that point, I can either rip my 2x12's into 2x6' for the tracks and attach the angle to the top, or I can mill 12' 6x6's and lay angle on top of that instead. But these would be green pine and would experience some degree of shifting.

Also, the longest lengths of angle I can find locally are 6'. If I drive 2 hours I can find 20', but no matter what I would need to connect lengths somehow to get to 24'.

This will not be a forever setup. If I can get a 1-2 years of milling out of it before rebuilding it all with steel, I'll be happy.

[Don P]

Any scrapyards you can peruse for an old trailer or bus frame?

[mike_belben]

Mine is from 100% junk on hand.  Makes good lumber.  only requires one post with a 24" bar but yours will need 2 or the bar will sag.

2  I only need one rail to locate the groove wheels and they have a lot of float.  Theyre just drilled steel pucks on shoulder bolts without bearings and my finish cut is smoother than a circle mill so its no rocket science.  The far side caster wheels just ride on the flats, they hold it up but do zero locating.  

The carriage only positions the saw and it lifts right off.  A 1" sq tube does the vertical axis and a I hand filed a telescoping sq tube to slide up and down with a thumbscrew.  Its manually positioned and works fine. I bolted through the bar with 3/8 bolts.  It will take two bolts or the bar will pivot sideways and leave an ugly finish no matter how hard you tighten.

I made a winch since my alaskan needed it but this rig does not.  It walks very easy compared to alaskan milling.


Plan on a tin baffle over the exhaust or you will get sick from fumes.  I just hand formed a scrap of flashing and jam it in the handle.


















This was how i did the clamps.  Sharp side for log, smooth for lumber. The flat steel just gets smacked tight and it bows like a spring to maintain tension when you cranm the cam.  Slide cam onto any of the 3 points.  Works well enough i guess. My big mistake is that im sawing away from the backstops toward the clamps and i cant just spin it because of a carriage clearance issue i didnt realize until after.  Not ideal but hasnt stopped me from making lumber if i really need it.


















This finish is not about the chain.  Its about the bar. Keep the rains dressed and guage in check.  When the chain can rock in the bar groove youre wood gets ugly. I had to make a closer to keep them in tune but it was worth the effort.






Dont make it as low as mine.  Hell on the back.

[subarctic_moose]

Don, great idea, I hadn't thought of that. I'll take a look around Reno and see what might be about there. But my wife might panic if she see's me bringing more "junk" back to the property  :D

Mike, that is an awesome build. Very cool that you sourced everything from the homestead supply store. Is that a car jack I see for leveling?

I found out that I can get 20' lengths of angle within an hour's drive for a reasonable price. After looking at some designs, something along the lines of the Woodland Mills track system might work well on top of 6x6x12's. Angle is cheap compared to rect tube and leveling feet can be used to account for the wood base settling or moving?

Something like this:

• 6x6x12's laid out lengthwise over RR ties, two 6x6x12' sections to form 24' length, RR ties every 4'
• 20' tracks of 1/4" angle, not attached to 6x6s but instead sit on leveling feet
• Additional 4' of angle to form the staging track for the carriage so I can accommodate 20' logs
• 36" width between tracks, doable since I have a 42" bar

I think my biggest question has to do with the bunks. Is angle an option here as well, or will it not provide the required support?

Edit: it looks like I'm thinking of something very similar to a Hudson track. I believe this is 2x2x1/4 for both tracks and bunks. That might be strong enough to support 36" width?


 

[Hilltop366]

If the angle frame rails are not fasten down probably they should be at least captured on the wood frame so the whole thing does not skate off the 6x6 timbers when you turn a log.

The bunks can take quit a jolt when turning the cut side of a log down, with large logs I would fear angle would bend unless really heavy.

Perhaps some extra support from a middle row of 6x6 would reduce the span of the bunks or some wood bunks on joist hangers (could be double size hangers and cut some 3"x?) topped off with angle?

[Hilltop366]

Also I will add that Jonsered use to make a CSM it was a "three legged" one.

Possible source of ideas.

Jonsered 600+ Chainsaw mill cutting planks - YouTube  

[mike_belben]

i think id use angle iron rail oriented in an L shape and not an upside down V.  i bet mine would pull right off the vee rails.  there can be a lot of side grab.  my casters have a square cut groove that fits loose on the rail and it pulls into the wood pretty hard at times.  i thought that precision was required to get a clean face but ive found that not to be the case.  my carriage floats all over side to side.  once the bar makes its initial kerf it kinda hovers in the cut.  the carriage still rides the track but the track is mostly just keeping the saw from plunging in to the dogs and jamming up.  the up and down dimension.. its kinda like the bar is holding the saw and rig up.  im sure a lot of this sensation is the vibration but i reminds me of air hockey.  often times im walking the track and my casters arent rolling even as i move and its no big deal because theres really no weight on the carriage, the wood is holding it up.  still cuts flat and true as long as the bars rail squareness and rail gauge are maintained.  

i need to make another same sized bed to double this one for milling beams. mine is made from streetsign post, the cast U channel type with holes every inch down one face.  my backstops are just 1" squarestock with a 3/8 bolt that goes in any hole.  i flip the backstops 180 for either talls to do log or shorts to hold a cant down to the last cut. in those pics its on the ground but now its up on dunnage. 

your wood frame on the ground should be pretty rigid if its on good flat compacted sand or gravel.  mine is a standalone frame and it really had a lot of twist and boing to it until i added all those round conduit pipes to add torsional stiffness. if i lift one corner the whole thing will come up now.  

i used 3" C channel for my bunks, below the rails.  then realized the wood was too low for last cut so i raised the bunk height 1" by just welding some 1" barstock ontop. 

[Don P]

One thought.
You have a CSM, use it to build the track. Slab 2 sides off of 2 long logs to ~8" thick, leave them full width, wide heavy foundation. Bed them parallel and level. Cross bunk foundations with 4x4 or 6x6 and then fill between those up and down the length of the bed timbers with the same, as blocking in between bunk bed members. Bolt down angle upturned on one side and flat strap on the other, only guide from one rail to avoid binding. One set of wheels is grooved the other smooth. You'll need track sweepers in front of the wheels, old tire or similar scrubbing the rails.

Mike, when we have the slabbing bar on the Lucas the horizontal wandering is inches, well probably an inch, between the posts, long rails, wheels etc floating and flexing, but it holds level just fine. A good bit of the time my hip is against a rail trying to calm the shaking down.

The rail here is fixed to something heavy, that horizontal force is in the saw carriage and wheels to track

[Hilltop366]

I don't know Don P seems like more than one thought to me? ;D

That is what I was getting at when I suggested a stationary CSM in the other thread. Low cost using the materials and tools at hand.

The rollers could all be grooved if you let one side float side to side on their axel but flat is just as good. 

Some sawdust shielding on the saw carnage will be very helpful in reducing the sawdust that gets on the track. Thin boards, plywood, sheet metal, rigid plastic (gutters, drain pipe....) anything will do.

[subarctic_moose]

One thought.
You have a CSM, use it to build the track. Slab 2 sides off of 2 long logs to ~8" thick, leave them full width, wide heavy foundation. Bed them parallel and level. Cross bunk foundations with 4x4 or 6x6 and then fill between those up and down the length of the bed timbers with the same, as blocking in between bunk bed members. Bolt down angle upturned on one side and flat strap on the other, only guide from one rail to avoid binding. One set of wheels is grooved the other smooth. You'll need track sweepers in front of the wheels, old tire or similar scrubbing the rails.

Mike, when we have the slabbing bar on the Lucas the horizontal wandering is inches, well probably an inch, between the posts, long rails, wheels etc floating and flexing, but it holds level just fine. A good bit of the time my hip is against a rail trying to calm the shaking down.

The rail here is fixed to something heavy, that horizontal force is in the saw carriage and wheels to track

I like it! Makes sense that you only need one track.

For leveling, I would just be shimming the 8" logs instead of a separate track frame sitting on top of logs. Hopefully not too much of an issue with the tolerances of a CSM and timber >5"?

In this case, are the bunks and blocking sitting level with the tops of the side logs, and are you just thinking wood only for the bunks? I wasn't sure if this was viable or if the weight of the logs would destroy the level-ish plane of the bunks or not.

[subarctic_moose]

i think id use angle iron rail oriented in an L shape and not an upside down V.  i bet mine would pull right off the vee rails.  there can be a lot of side grab.  my casters have a square cut groove that fits loose on the rail and it pulls into the wood pretty hard at times.  i thought that precision was required to get a clean face but ive found that not to be the case.  my carriage floats all over side to side.  once the bar makes its initial kerf it kinda hovers in the cut.  the carriage still rides the track but the track is mostly just keeping the saw from plunging in to the dogs and jamming up.  the up and down dimension.. its kinda like the bar is holding the saw and rig up.  im sure a lot of this sensation is the vibration but i reminds me of air hockey.  often times im walking the track and my casters arent rolling even as i move and its no big deal because theres really no weight on the carriage, the wood is holding it up.  still cuts flat and true as long as the bars rail squareness and rail gauge are maintained.  

Good points all around! I hadn't thought about how much weight would be carried by the saw itself, but that makes sense. Keeping the whole bed level will be a proper challenge, but I'm hoping the gravel will make a difference. I'd build it where I have a gravel base now, but that's right behind the house. Other side of the property, nobody cares if I make lots of noise and giant sawdust piles  :D

[subarctic_moose]

I don't know Don P seems like more than one thought to me? ;D

That is what I was getting at when I suggested a stationary CSM in the other thread. Low cost using the materials and tools at hand.

The rollers could all be grooved if you let one side float side to side on their axel but flat is just as good.

Some sawdust shielding on the saw carnage will be very helpful in reducing the sawdust that gets on the track. Thin boards, plywood, sheet metal, rigid plastic (gutters, drain pipe....) anything will do.

Hilltop, I think you were right on about suggesting a track setup. Might have been a little ambitious to try and mill a barn's worth of timber without something stationary 

[mike_belben]

Chop up a old push broom for sweepers. 

I like that milling logs for a base plan there don i might consider that for a long bed to run my carriage on. 

[Don P]

To be honest, I pretty much just described the track on my old Belsaw. I'm on steel but the earlier ones were on wood.

The guide rail is on this side, you can see it just behind the blade and splitter here. It is 2 back to back angles, I'd guess about 1x1x3/16", you can see my worn out sweeper on the end of the carriage. The "off" rail is flat.



 

[subarctic_moose]

Got it, thanks Don.

I'm trying to wrap my head around attaching the guide rail attaching directly to the track logs / 8Xs. I love the simplicity of it, but wouldn't it be really easy to distort the track and if the log is cut perfectly or there is any warping or twisting as it dries? Or am I over thinking this?

[Don P]

Use the flat headed black timber screws through predrilled holes in the track down into the timber, spaced no further apart than the track can span with the powerhead on it. Pull a tight string spaced above the track and if there are dips pull the screw, washer under the track to height and refasten. I might be on steel but there is a screw jack under the loading/ turning end corner, I've pounded it to china and keep relevelling it.

[subarctic_moose]

Don, that is genius! And so simple.

Last few questions before I get working on the bed- single 24' section of 8" bed on each side would be more stable and preferable to 2 12' sections? Also, I would need to do some squaring on the 3rd side of the log (inside) to attach bunk beds and blocks?

I might also experiment with constructing the carriage box from 2x reinforced with angle iron as compared to 1" square tube. A welder isn't quite in the cards yet.

[rusticretreater]

A welder is always in the cards.  You just haven't been dealt them...yet.

[Don P]

I was thinking about milling 4x4 or 6x6 to sit on top of the bed timbers, again buy a few boxes of whatever length of the black fastenmaster screws you need, you can slam this part together in a few hours with chainsaw joinery.



 

Watch FB and craigslist for a little 110 flux core welder, I see them cheap. That and some creative scrap work can make a decent carriage.

[Crusarius]

I did not read the entire thread but one thing alot of ppl do not think about when setting up proper bed support is location of the supports. The log does not sit on the outer frame. the only load that outer frame is technically seeing is the weight of what is rolling on it (chainsaw carriage). that being said 1/4x2x2 angle with the feet held in from the ends will easily support what you need to support. 

The only catch to this is making sure that if you are rolling logs up and over the carriage rails you should support under them so they do not lift the rest of the frame.

I am not really an advocate for angle because it does not offer much for torsional strength without alot of extra stiffeners. But I do understand it is the cheapest option.

[subarctic_moose]

I was thinking about milling 4x4 or 6x6 to sit on top of the bed timbers, again buy a few boxes of whatever length of the black fastenmaster screws you need, you can slam this part together in a few hours with chainsaw joinery.



 

Watch FB and craigslist for a little 110 flux core welder, I see them cheap. That and some creative scrap work can make a decent carriage.

Ah ok thanks Don, I see it! That should do the trick.

Crusarius, hopefully I wont have to worry about rolling logs over the side rails since I can use the grapple on the tractor to drop them straight on.

[subarctic_moose]

Also Don where do I find one of them zero taper logs like in the sketchup model? No leveling required? I can get on board with that! 

[Crusarius]

thats just a scale drawing. thats a 1" dowel

[subarctic_moose]

Put a box blade on the tractor and got the site leveled out-ish. At first I thought about using the railroad ties under the track logs as a base, but that would be a PITA to level versus leveling a 24' log in one piece.

I am thinking I might make a go of using the ties on top of the logs for the track and bunk supports. The ties are 9' x 9" wide, laid out flat and with some leveling they should make nice supports for the tracks. For the bunks, I can cut the ties down to 2'3" and set them on their sides to raise the bunk platform 3" above the rails. Might be a few challenges getting the total bunk platform leveled as the ties are not 100% square on the dimensions, maybe more like 90%? But if it works it should be a very stable platform.

[Don P]

Watch your working height on that fine non tapered log. I guess it'll build and be scraped but my happy place is from around my knees to mid lunch. Much higher and your grip and power change. Much lower and its a back breaker. Build with your zone in mind for the average of your logs.