big log/tie log pricing

[TomFromStLouis]

We are urban loggers and sell most of our haul to a pallet/tie mill. They pay us $150/mbf for pallet material and larger stuff (up to their max 32") goes at tie prices of $300/mbf.

Since we get plenty of logs over their maximum size, we are looking for the same kind  of deal for the big 'uns. But everyone else pays a flat $180 or $200 or $230 (and of course the higher prices are farther away, so we will net $150 no matter where we send them). Now it seems to me that the bigger they are, the more likely you can get 7x9 ties out of them.

Maybe the $300 is too much, but it is the largest mill of them all so they clearly know what is what. But I don't. What makes a tie log? Wouldn't 40" logs make lots of ties?

I have to take what the market gives me here, but a little understanding would make me feel better about it.

[ronwood]

Tom,

I believe that ties need to have a boxed heart ie. cut out the center of the log. I am not sure if you can sell them without a boxed heart. Maybe some of the others on the forum would be able to confirm this since I don't cut any.

Ron

[Kirk_Allen]

I spoke with a company last week about ties.  Forgive the spelling, "Kopplers".

They will take ties as long as they are either full boxed heart or no heart.  So if you have 40" logs yes you could get several ties out of it, however the problem, for us band mill guys and gals lies with the size of the log.

The time it takes to widdle on a 40" log so that we can get a full width cut means we lose money.  Full cut on a WM is 28" so you have to get that log down, thus losing a tie or two trying to get down to such a width. I have cut up quite a few 40" but I now charge more for logs over 30" because of the extra time involved.  

I think this is the great place for a swinger to step in as they are capable of doing this with little problems from what I understand.  

Question for you Tom.  Do you come across much cottonwood and if so what are you selling them for.  I have a need for cottonwood. Our mill is about 2 hours east of St. Louis.  

We have a couple of logging outfits near us and although the price is fair the people I am dealing with are not excatly the kind of folks I would bring home to dinner any time soon.

[Kirk_Allen]

One other factor to think about on those bigger logs is Grade.

I know of all the BIG logs I have cut, I have gotten quite a bit of FAS lumber out of them so for me to even think about cutting it all into ties would be nuts.  

Yes, it takes more cuts to get the boards but FAS brings far more per BDFT than ties thus justifying lumber versus ties.

Kirk

[Curlywoods]

Kirk,

  With all of the travelling that you do when do you have time to mill anymore :-)  If you are cutting any nice colorful Box Elder logs, try to cut them into 3" slabs and thicker for my wood turning customers :-)

[Buzz-sawyer]

I have been wondering if there is any market for the stuff....most goes to the burn pile!

[Ron Wenrich]

The company name is Koppers.  Kerr-McGee might also be out in that area.

They prefer to have a boxed heart.  But, they don't want to have ties that are quartered.  So, the best you can do is to get 2 ties with no heart.  You could do that with a 16"x 9", and that would take an 18.4" log.

You could get a few more off of the sides if the mill had a top saw.  But the biggest problem is handling the log, especially when you get to something really wide and narrow.  

What makes a good tie log is oak or dense hardwood with no shake or rot.  There shouldn't be big knots, since they don't like ingrown bark or branch stubs.  Double heart should be limited.  

[Bro. Noble]

We sell to Koppers and Sommersville tie company.  They want the heart boxed,  but when there is a shortage of ties,  they will take them that don't have anyheartwood as Kirk stated.  We have sawn as many as 15 ties out of single sycamore trees by sawing that way (a few were 6X8).  Makes for some heavy cants to handle.  When there's an abundance of ties,  they ask us to box the hearts ;D  With oak or other species that we have a grade lumber market for,  we always saw the side lumber for grade and box the hearts for ties if they are sound enough.

[TomFromStLouis]

I guess I should have mentioned that these are low grade logs we are regularly sending to the pallet/tie mill. Pine, elm, locust, pin and post oaks, sycamore, etc. Thanks for the boxing heart discussion - we are new at this whole thing and there seems to be more to learn the further you get into it.

So, per Ron W, the most he gets from any one log is 2 ties while Bro Noble cuts up to 6. Sounds to me like the RR tie buyers are inconsistent in their standards. And thus I really do not have the answer as to whether my 45" pin oaks should sell for $150 or $300.

[Buzz-sawyer]

A pin oak 45" by 9' should bring about $171...regardless...blocking in our area nets .18 cents...possibly up to .24 for better stuff.....Do you ever sell to Loyd at Lewis and Clarck sawmill?

[smwwoody]

Most tie buyers are real consistant in thier gradeing.  where you will see a differance is when ties are moveing real good like right now.  they will tell thier graders to lighten up and let more through.  Now you have guyes like me and Ron that have been sawing ties for years and know what they will accept when times get tight.  That is how we saw all our ties all the time..  I have seen our local tie plant start shutting off mills when times are tight.  The guys that were sending them ties that meet thier grade all along were never stopped or slowed down.

Woody

[Buzz-sawyer]

The difference in grading I have seen is from thr DIFFERENT tie companies....they vary on species size specs and cuts as well.........

[Kirk_Allen]

Mike,
Box Elder?  You mean people actually use that stuff ;D

I will try to remember that for the next load I get.  Do you want it green, air dried, or Kiln dried?

Kirk

[FiremanEd]

In central Va which is a timber economy we pay $110 / mbf for pallet matterial (under 13'' small end) and $225 to $275 / mbf for 13" and up tie logs. Grade logs over 13'' can range up to $600 for #1 red oak. This is all on the International 1/4'' scale.

We sell most of our ties to Koppers who will by any hardwood for a tie. They pay slightly less for any ties other than oak. As discussed above if the heart is present it must be boxed but if the log is large enough you can have multiple ties from outside the heart. My best was 5, 3 vertical each way in a cross with the center having the boxed heart. This was out of a large sycamore.

[Ron Wenrich]

I've been selling to Koppers for over 20 years.  The grader now comes in and counts up the ties and cuts a check.  He doesn't look for rejects, since he doesn't give me any.  We both know there are a few that are there.  But, he says I make one of the best ties in his market.  Very seldom will I not box the hears.

But, when a money maker comes around, like long switch or bridge, we're the ones that cut them.  Not the guys that are trying to sneak stuff in that can't use.  

[Kirk_Allen]

Ron,
There is a message in that post!

Do your job and do it right and business will come to you and stay with you 8)!

My buyer for the pallet stock is tickled pink.  When I pull up now I hand him the tally sheet and he cuts me a check without counting or inspecting anything.

He said that he can count on me to bring him what he asked for without half of it not meating grade. I have seen some stringers from other mills that have bark as one of the sides.

While unloading the last load of our stringers another load of stringers came in and with only a glance at the load, he rejected it all.  He told the driver to let the mill know that they wont be buying from them anymore becuase they keep including garbage in with the few good ones.

[FiremanEd]

Ron and Kirk make great points on providing quality and being trustworthy. It, almost, always comes back to help you as do the opposite reactions when you try to sneak something by.

As Ron pointed out, the Koppers buyer cutting a check on the spot is another very nice aspect of dealing with them.