Is 4/4 bdft the same amount in SQ ft?

[red oaks lumber]

another reason to saw alittle thicker, when it comes to planing for a product if the board is thin in spots because you were trying to save wood that board now became junk. there isnt a mill that saws perfect every board, none.

[drobertson]

It seems this post has drifted a bit. 1" is 1'" usually +1/8 inch in one inch lumber, green.  for custom cuts, it really depends on what is required.  At times folks need advice, and can be adjusted as needed for the job.
When selling whole sale flooring grade things change, as to required thicknesses, and the grade is as it is.
david

[Peter Drouin]

jim ,
  why would i sell on log volume?i saw about 30% over scale so ,the little thicker board really isnt a big deal. my self i would be embarrassed to charge some one on 1/8 " :( but, to each his own.
gene,
99% of the people on this forum  don't apply to "the rules" all you did was add alot of confusion to an already confusing topic for alot of people. imho.

another reason to saw alittle thicker, when it comes to planing for a product if the board is thin in spots because you were trying to save wood that board now became junk. there isnt a mill that saws perfect every board, none.

When I saw lumber I try not to leave wane on it. If I do then most customers won't buy it. Or if it is thick and thin they don't want it. I don't plane wood. Red oak you sell finished flooring ? [And is a good set up] Is it less than an 1"? Do you charge for an 1"? Or charge for less than an 1" if your flooring is say 3/4"? Do you charge for 3/4 ?
I don't know what you do . Maybe you can help me 

[red oaks lumber]

yes i sell finished products ie. flooring. when i determine a price, it starts with my wood cost based in 4/4 scale  b.f. i sell all wall and floor coverings by the sq.ft. so its very important to understand the conversion factor from b.f. to sq.ft.
if buying logs and i pay .60 b.f. for that log, no matter what i choose to saw from it, the cost is .60 b.f. so a 1x8 8' r.sawn is 5.33 b.f. the wood cost is $3.198. now we take that same board and make 7" cover floor  the sq.ft. is 4.66 the wood cost is .686 cents  per sq.ft. just by changing numbers your wood cost has gone up.if you don't understand how to price between b.f. to sq.ft at some point it will cost you alot of money.
over the years i have found it better for my operation to saw oversize, with that i can afford to saw faster  and push harder because there is a size buffer. so at the end of the day its cheaper for us to put a little more size on a board and make it up with productiuon than maybe squezzing 1 more maginal board but, taking alot more time sawing.

[Peter Drouin]

I can see how that works for you .

[5quarter]

Never thought I'd say it, but I guess I'm a one percenter... :D :D. Excellent post Gene.

Red Oaks...I saw heavy too for about the same reasons. even minor drying defects can put a board in the cull stack if its sawn too thin.

[Ron Wenrich]

I have always sawn lumber and blocking over thickness by 1/8".  The reason being that a rejected tie or load of blocking results in a huge loss that is hard to be made up.  I've had pallet stock buyers check 3½x6 and are known to reject if they are even a hair under.  I also add a little to the pallet stock, as quite often they end up with an extra board.  I get a better price, and never have a problem selling, even during down markets.  Sort of like buying insurance.

Tie buyers often want 1/4" overage.  That's due to some mills not being too good in their sizing.  Ties are run through a sizing machine to maintain consistency in a finished product.  I only cut 1/8" over and never had any problems due to my consistency.  I guess I get a savings there.

All hardwood lumber is sawn on the 1/8".  Most buyers demand it.  I hate seeing a board rejected due to thickness.  Since I am sawing my blocking a little heavy, my 6" boards give a little cushion on the scale side.  No downgrading due to being under 6".  That can really add up in a year's time.  Understanding lumber grading is something anyone working with hardwoods should know. 

You give the buyer what he wants, or better.  I always have had markets for my material, no matter market conditions.  When markets dip, I usually pick up buyers and keep them when markets get better.  Guess I'm old school.

[strunk57]

I love how this thread has turned out, again I have learned a lot more than I knew before. I never had a clue about the standard measuring system. Now I do.

[36 coupe]

another reason to saw alittle thicker, when it comes to planing for a product if the board is thin in spots because you were trying to save wood that board now became junk. there isnt a mill that saws perfect every board, none.

Ive planed a lot of lumber since 1980.Rough lumber under an inch never comes clean.2 of my friends cant read fractions on a rule.The four quarters system must come from the time when many people could not read or write.It would be easy to understand  4 quarters in measuring lumber.There are boards in my old barn with footage marked in roman numerals.If you are running a band mill dont saw to 7/8 unless you are sawing rough siding.Wide boards that are cupped should be ripped in half if you want both sides to come clean.No need for confusion on lumber measurement.If you insist on getting paid extra for 1 and 1/8 boards just raise the board foot price.

[Cedarman]

There must be a meeting of minds between buyer and seller.  If you are selling commercially, then I suggest taking a week long lumber grading short course.  If you are going to be in the hardwood sawing business, it will be some of the best time and money spent.  I did it 30 years ago and I can tell you I got an education!!
There are commercial standards that set the target.  But every buyer may have special needs that if you work with them you get rewarded with better price or more orders.  Have the conversation with your buyer.  Get to know them and how their business runs.
When I first started the cedar business we only sawed 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 posts for a company.  They didn't want to buy lumber.  I took a trip to their operations and saw that they used lots of lumber.  They said they bought lumber before and it didn't meet their specs.  I asked to give it a try.  They accepted.  After the first truck load, their response was, you saw it, we'll buy it.  Get busy.  We were the only mill to take the trouble to meet their needs.

Custom sawing is a whole different ball game. One example should suffice.  We get calls for 2x4's.  What the customer actually may want can vary from 2 1/8" x 4 1/8" down to 1 1/2" x 3 1/2" and everything in between depending on what they are doing with the wood.  We also have to ask if the boards need to be planed.  Sometimes  not all 4 sides need to be planed.  Just depends on what the customer asks for.
Once you know what the customer asks for then you can figure what you need to saw to make it happen.  That is when you calculate price based on the cost of sawing the logs and the volume of wood it takes to supply the order.

[Magicman]

They said they bought lumber before and it didn't meet their specs.  I asked to give it a try. 

That mentality also has to be overcome when custom sawing.  So many "peckerwood sawyers" were turning out "peckerwood lumber".  Dull blades and misaligned sawmills turning out inconsistent lumber will cast a shadow of doubt that has to be overcome with potential customers.

[Ron Wenrich]

There are boards in my old barn with footage marked in roman numerals..

That has to do with where the boards and timbers are placed, not with the footage.  My uncle's barn dated back to the 1830s, and that's how his was put together. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Way back in time, the sawmill had a dial with numbers on it that was linked to the carriage.  It was called a back stand calculator.  It indicated the position of the carriage knees in 1/4" increments (in more modern time, 1/8") from the saw blade.  But, here is the key: The carriage was moved in and out mechanically...each ratchet of the set works was 1/4"...so the mechanical movement or back stand indicator was 1/4" increments.  Why this started, I do not know, but once it started, we find that lumber was naturally sold based on 1/4" thicknesses.  The movement of the carriage without ratchets is around 65-75 years ago, but older carriages continued the 1/4" movement.

Regarding possible confusion in the earlier posting, hopefully the softwood discussion is clear, as it is straight forward.  Plus, many people sell and price by the piece anyway, so footage is not an issue for lumber.  A good example is in the posting about cedar posts.

I would think that many people, more than 1%, would use a tally stick for measuring hardwood lumber! as it is so easy and fast too.  The tally stick uses the math procedure outlined in the posting, but it has the answers all worked out, so the math does not need to be done by the person doing the measurement.

One comment about thickness...typically, 8/4 lumber sells for 2.25 times more than 4/4...that is, twice the volume is worth more than twice the price (grade is the same).  But, as so well pointed out already, the customer's needs are a key in all cases.  Anything you can do to make your lumber more valuable to the customer...measurement, thickness, a sense of wane, etc..., the better it will be for you and your customer.  It is because of this customized market that we can sometimes ignore past traditions and all benefit.

[red oaks lumber]

if you don't grade your lumber how can you grade saw and use a tally stick? or sell using the nhla rules?i live in a 4 sided planing world so any wood that is not cut the same size i have very little patience for :(

[Magicman]

One other issue is market.  Agreed, 8/4 lumber may sell for more than twice what 4/4 sells for but with the available market, you may be able to actually sell four times the amount of 4/4.  The catch in this situation is having the inventory or output to satisfy both markets.  Sometimes you can not have cake plus ice cream.  You gotta be willing to settle for just cake.

[Cedarman]

Find a hardwood grading manual.  It can make your head spin.  Once your head quits spinning check out the grading for walnut.  It will spin again.
But, there is rhyme and reason for the rules.  The most important for me was to learn FAS, 1Face, and #1common.
Does this complicate it more?

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Magicman...Right on target.  Oftentimes, when thinking about producing 8/4, it is best to be certain that the grade will be high...such certainty is hard to have when just looking at a log while sawing.  The truth is that lower grade 8/4 has a poor market--slow sales and low prices.  Even experience isn't perfect, so there is a risk with manufacturing thicker lumber.  (Stated another way, I would rather have a No.1 common 4/4 and a No.2 Common 4/4 instead of one no. 2 Common 8/4.). Yep...it is all about markets and sales.

The next issue of Sawmill & Woodlot has a good article on marketing for the small mill.

[drobertson]

I just love when a thread goes off, and when it does it brings many factors and great points in regards to lumber, sawing and grading.  the, main question still is does 4/4 lumber amount to sq/ft.    yes, 

[red oaks lumber]

 yes.. only in the rough sawn form.

[WDH]

Very good point. 

[Okrafarmer]

Everybody made some good points!

While I am at least somewhat familiar with the NHLA rules (basic), I do not use them. For one thing, I sell a lot of live edge lumber and special pieces. For more conventional lumber, I do not grade, but sell it all the same price, with the exception that excessively defective lumber (that which will not work for most reasonable uses) is discounted. I also allow for discounting prices for a quick sale.

I have been cutting all my 4/4 wood at 1". My Woodmizer's scale seems to only allow one inch for 4/4, and 1/8 for the kerf. I wish they had set it up to leave 1/8 inch extra. To easy to make an error.

I sell my red cedar on the same rules as my hardwood, but pine I sell more like industrial lumber. I always check with the customer what they mean if they say 2X4, 2X6, etc. Most times they will opt for 1.5X3.5, 1.5X5.5, etc. when I explain they will save money per stick.

I also don't worry if I do end up giving them a little extra wood. I simply charge enough per bf to make up for it.

[Ron Wenrich]

Depends on who you sell to.  If you're talking about the hobby guy that uses a small amount of lumber, then your system works.  Most times, the hobby guy doesn't know anything about lumber grades.  If your talking about a guy that does restoration work, for example, your system might work because he knows what specifically he needs.

But, if you are selling to a cabinet shop or a wholesaler, they do understand grade and they buy by grade.  Your system doesn't work, and limits your markets.  If you don't need them as a market source, then you're okay.  Sometimes cash flow trumps price. 

In addition to 8/4, I've sawn 10/4, 12/4, and 16/4 grade.  The heavier stuff is usually tulip poplar.  It isn't very often that I would get a piece that was below grade.  Sawing hardwood grade is all about risk.  If you saw too heavily into a face, you risk a lower quality board since grade is determined by the poorest face (except for F1F).   Log species, position of log in the tree, and local growing conditions will often determine how heavily you can cut into the log.  It's riskier to try to cut 8/4 from black oak than it is to cut from red oak, for example.  Its riskier to cut 8/4 in a second cut log.   

[36 coupe]

Yes, it is essentially the same thing. In reality, 4/4 is from 1.000" to 1.249" thick, so a 4/4 board could be almost 25% more in volume than a true 1" board.

What?  say_what

Still trying to figure that one

[strunk57]

Cedarman mentionEd a week long lumber grading coarse, I am very interested in doing something like that. Does anyone know when, where and what the cost of something like this is?

[36 coupe]

There are boards in my old barn with footage marked in roman numerals..

That has to do with where the boards and timbers are placed, not with the footage.  My uncle's barn dated back to the 1830s, and that's how his was put together.

Disagree, there are boards on the side of the barn that measure exactly as marked.My barn dates to 1806.Roman numerals are easy to scribe.The boards are from an up and down sawmill.I find no marks on timbers.all were axe cut on site.