UPDATE: Struggling with Forest measurements class..

[BrandonTN]

 :( Yes, it's true. In my current principles of silviculture class, we have to write lab reports and abstracts describing stands we visit and whatnot. I used to be an English major back during my 1st attempt @ college 7 years ago. I thought of myself as a good writer....well, my idea of a good writer then being Jack Kerouac or James Joyce, ie anyone "creative", stream-of-conciousness style.

But the technical side of things have finally caught up w/ me, and have shattered my perception of myself as a writer. :  ...ego is deflating as I type this.  :-[

Organizing the scattered knowledge in my head into concise, flowing, technical writing is hard for me.  For one, I think if I knew more about what I was writing about(terminology, processes, etc.) would help bigtime.  I simply have a hard time wording things concisely it seems.  Then there's the switching phrases around like this:

"Responding to a clearcut, hardwood species regenerate by root sprouting."
"Hardwood species regenerate by root sprouting, responding to a clearcut."
Which is the best way?
This isn't the best example, but I struggle with this when I have a paragraph worth of things I want to say in my head, but I seem to either have too many run-on sentences, or too many short sentences...I struggle finding the balance.

"Brevity"...i looked up the word in the dictionary: "Saying much with few words." That's my goal, but I'm the opposite of that right now. I'm used to writing English papers where writing descriptive fluff is the name of the game. I'm gonna have to spend more time learning to write then I thought.

Anyone else have this problem in forestry school? Is there hope? :

[SwampDonkey]

Is there not a technical writing class in forestry now? Technical writing is almost like writing a thesis incorporating the scientific method, in it's structure and flow to things. Grammar is very important, not just that you can spell. Organize your thoughts with an opening theme to every paragraph and build on it. New theme or thought, new paragraph.

It flows as follows:

Purpose/Introduction
Materials and Methods
Description
Results
Conclusions
Literature Cited

The conclusion is where the professor sees if you understand what you actually did. Probably the most important for the grade.

There is no way you can just sit down and write one up in a session, there is a lot of work placing thoughts with one another that follow the same theme. I always wrote stuff by pen first and then put it to word processor, because a lot of information gathering is required at times, later condensing and fitting it together as you build the report.


cheers

[WDH]

Yes, there is hope.

Write the paper first in outline form that shows the organization as SD suggests.  Fill in the outline with the key facts/points that you need to make.  Then, write the words that make the points and conclusions.  You build it up like putting flesh on a skeleton or like adding walls to a foundation.

It helps if you can see this organization in your head before you ever begin writing.  If you can develop that structure, it is easier to be more creative with your words and sentences since the structure (skeleton) keeps you from inadvertantly adding a third leg to a two-legged individual.

Also, like you said, no fluff.  "Just the facts, Maam" to quote a famous TV show. 

A good friend of mine has written a book on communication in Forestry.  You might give it a try.

http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Trees-Enough-Communication-Professionals/dp/1593304285

[Gary_C]

It flows as follows:

Purpose/Introduction
Materials and Methods
Description
Results
Conclusions
Literature Cited

The conclusion is where the professor sees if you understand what you actually did. Probably the most important for the grade.

I would add one section right after the Introduction called:

Summary and Conclusions

While it may seem wrong for you to reveal your ending at the beginning, most of the readers will appreciate seeing what they really need to know first so they can better follow what you did to reach that conclusion without flipping pages. And probably over two thirds of the readers will not need to read past that point.

Plus writing the end first can help you organize your facts to prove your conclusion.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes, Gary. But, a more appropriate term might be Abstract. All technical papers have an abstract that does what you ask. While I had thought of it while jotting down the list I never included it as most laboratory exercises in college omit it. If your asked to write a paper on a topic, then an Abstract is included. Often the only direction you get from the instructor is a one or two line question for you to postulate and cogitate over. :D

[BrandonTN]

Ok, I'll try starting with the outline. I've basically just been going down the list of sections, and writing it as I go.

phew! thanks guys

[WDH]

Brandon,

I want you to know that I had the same problem.  You can do it.  I did.

[SwampDonkey]

Me to Brandon, but I always found if you like a subject more you do better in writing it up. I used to ace my out door soils lab writeup for instance, but when it came to the second course on analyzing the soil and using the computer models. Ho Hum!! Guess I'd rather get my hands dirty. :D

[Riles]

I used to write short, factual sentences on the first draft and then pretend I was saying those sentences to the professor in the rewrite. Found my writing style changed based on who I was "talking" to.

[BrandonTN]

Thanks guys for reassuring me on the writing.    I got a good grade on the last report so I'm feeling more hopeful.


But Measurements and Sampling class is a different story.... :-\

I'm pretty sure I bombed the Mid-term today. I'll be happy if I passed by 1 point. I blame my own neglect of studying more than the mind-numbing nature of statistics...this time, atleast. ;D But yeah, even though we were allowed a whole "cheat" sheet front and back to prepare for the test, I still bombed it. I thought I understood Confidence Intervals, and all that jazz better than I did. (I got a B in reg. intro to Stats.) But apparently, this stuff doesn't stay retained for long w/o regular use. Plus, in the intro class all the formulas we needed were supplied at each class, and it seemed simpler, and more generic.  It's tough!

Wake up call! Time to start working the problems in the book.

[WDH]

So, we need a more studious Brandon ;D.  Nose to the grindstone ;D ;D.

[BrandonTN]

You got that right, WDH. ;)


<---- Me doing my homework on Excel.

[beenthere]

We're pullin for ya Brandon.

And thinkin how great you have it with the calculators and computers to do all the messy sums of squares, and square of the sums, etc. etc. etc.   ;D ;D

(or do they make you do it by hand, just so you feel the pain.. ??? ??? :   ). 

A whole lotta things you measure in forestry will need the statistics applied to them and as well, interpreted from sampling...so doin those problems and knowing them will help you a lot. 

[tonich]

<---- Me doing my homework on Excel.

And we all trying to help:




PS. J/K  ;D :D :D :D

[SwampDonkey]

Oh, you mean Biostatistics. ;D  I thought we were talking mensuration for a while there. ;)  How is your poisson distribution? :D

[WDH]

If I had a poisson distribution, I would fry it up and have it with chips ;D.  J'aime le poisson.

[Tom]

Mensuration?!?
Don't they have a Boy tree class?

[Texas Ranger]

That was the class, in my day, that separated the men from the boys. :'(

[Riles]

It still is ...

[SwampDonkey]

Sometimes I just gotta scratch my head. I'd also like to say that when it comes to mensuration a professor can even make the proper use of a compass seem like rocket science. I never could understand the reasoning behind it. But, then you get into Tom's prism thread and you better study up and practice or you can get lost quick. Once you know the stuff it seems simple as long as you use it often enough to not loose the knowledge.  ;D

[Rocky Top]

It flows as follows:

Purpose/Introduction
Materials and Methods
Description
Results
Conclusions
Literature Cited

The conclusion is where the professor sees if you understand what you actually did. Probably the most important for the grade.

This is the biggest thing for Silviculture (Clatterbuck right?) make sure you are breaking your paragraphs into the format above or the one given to you by your TA in your first or second lab for the semester.  Have you had the wildlife management principles course I believe it is FWF317 taught by Dr. Buler and Dr. Strange?  When I was there it was the best class to really teach you the technical writing style.

[clearcut]

My favorite references for Forestry Statistics are:

Elementary Forest Sampling, Frank Freese, Southern Forest Experiment Station, Forest Service Agriculture Handbook No. 232, December 1962, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Forest Service

and

Elementary Statistical Methods For Foresters, Frank Freese Statistician Forest Products Laboratory, Agriculture Handbook 317
U.S. Department of Agriculture Forest Service
January 1967

Simple, straight forward and available as a PDFs:

     http://www.fs.fed.us/fmsc/ftp/measure/cruising/other/docs/AgHbk232.pdf

     http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/usda/ah317.pdf

[beenthere]

'Ol Frank was a straight forward guy..and had a remarkable ability to take something complicated to most, and say it (and write it) in few words that made a lot of sense.
He was a very good, and close friend.  Lost him to cancer in Nov. 1996.

Frank went to Forestry School at Syracuse, then ended up in the army during WWII, and was in the thick of things during the Battle of the Bulge.

Returned from the war to work at the Southern Forest Exp. Station with Lou Grosenbaugh. Moved to the Forest Products Lab in Madison in early 60's.

Glad to hear his Sampling and Statistics pubs are still well thought of.

Thanks for the info, clearcut

[Chris72941]

Hey Brandon

I will be transferring from University of Arkansas Fort Smith to University of Arkansas Monticello this spring(if all goes well got to love this economy >:( ) Anything a Forest Resources newbie needs to know when getting started on Forester w/GIS minor?

[BrandonTN]

It flows as follows:

Purpose/Introduction
Materials and Methods
Description
Results
Conclusions
Literature Cited

The conclusion is where the professor sees if you understand what you actually did. Probably the most important for the grade.

This is the biggest thing for Silviculture (Clatterbuck right?) make sure you are breaking your paragraphs into the format above or the one given to you by your TA in your first or second lab for the semester.  Have you had the wildlife management principles course I believe it is FWF317 taught by Dr. Buler and Dr. Strange?  When I was there it was the best class to really teach you the technical writing style.

Nah, I haven't taken the Wildlife class yet.

Returned from the war to work at the Southern Forest Exp. Station with Lou Grosenbaugh.

My class went to the Southern Forest Exp. Station in NC last week....Dr. Loftis talked to us.
I'd love to do a summer internship there this summer.

Hey Brandon

I will be transferring from University of Arkansas Fort Smith to University of Arkansas Monticello this spring(if all goes well got to love this economy >:( ) Anything a Forest Resources newbie needs to know when getting started on Forester w/GIS minor?

Greetings Chris! Just be prepared to study and take good notes and you'll do fine. Also get involved with the forestry club at your school, and participate in Conclave--(the annual competition of all forestry schools in the southeast....lots of fun!) I may see you there sometime actually. I know Arkansas went last year. It may even be hosted at Arkansas next year.
I hear GIS is a good skill to have.
Over the past year and a half that I've been here at school my direction has changed some. First I started off wanting to minor in journalism. Then it was journalism and english. Then it was journalism, english and wildlife. Then I heard about forest-fire fighting, so I wanted to forget the minors and get done w/ school sooner. Now I'm planning on not minoring in anything, studying abroad next year, and then grad school after that. And work in fire if I can.
So things may change some. So, expect the unexpected.  ;)

[WDH]

Conclave brings back sweet memories ;D. 

[BrandonTN]

 smiley_chop smiley_applause smiley_applause

[Chris72941]

Conclave brings back sweet memories ;D. 

Just about every Forest Service district ranger I discuss about UAM has stories/memories of the conclave. :D

Greetings Chris! Just be prepared to study and take good notes and you'll do fine. Also get involved with the forestry club at your school, and participate in Conclave--(the annual competition of all forestry schools in the southeast....lots of fun!) I may see you there sometime actually. I know Arkansas went last year. It may even be hosted at Arkansas next year.
I hear GIS is a good skill to have.
Over the past year and a half that I've been here at school my direction has changed some. First I started off wanting to minor in journalism. Then it was journalism and english. Then it was journalism, english and wildlife. Then I heard about forest-fire fighting, so I wanted to forget the minors and get done w/ school sooner. Now I'm planning on not minoring in anything, studying abroad next year, and then grad school after that. And work in fire if I can.
So things may change some. So, expect the unexpected.  ;)

Yea don't get me started on changing majors. I am guilty of that Business-IT-Forestry. Thats why I am getting the GIS minor because most of my IT classes will transfer to it easily. My original plan was to transfer for the fall(09) but I got a few things knocked out early and was hoping to get there this spring. 8) but now the job market is holding me down :-\ The conclave will be at UAM in 2010.

[WDH]

The conclave will be at UAM in 2010.

I competed in Georgia in 1976 and at Stephen F. Austin in 1977.  I also attended Clemson 1978 and UAM 1979 as a Grad student.  By all means, find a competition to compete in.  It will enrich you in your old age, and you can tell the young up-and-coming foresters about it  .

[Rocky_Ranger]

Ahhhh, sweet Georgia in '76, after getting MSU and Georgia conclave years mixed up earlier (old timers) it hit me as to how much fun I/we had down there.

[WDH]

Rocky,

Maybe we competed against each other in '76 ;D.

[BrandonTN]

About to go take my Silviculture final exam. 


Phew!

*Does pushups and jumping jacks*

  ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Hey, I just realized. I've been to your town to.  ;D

[WDH]

Brandon,

My Silviculture final was 33 years ago .  I would love to see a copy of the final ;D. 

[BrandonTN]

Took the Measurements & sampling final and actually feel better about it than I did about the mid-term. 

[SwampDonkey]

You'll look back on that a few years from now and say to yourself they sure know how to put the mystery into some pretty simple math and procedures.  ;)

[BrandonTN]

I look forward to that day. ;D

I can't imagine doing stand/stock tables and alot of the work we did without Excel.  How'd ya'll do it back before electricity?  :D

[SwampDonkey]

We had Quattro Pro I think. Needed it to do the regression for building the model (formula) using stem analysis data for making standardized volume tables, then to convert to localized from plotted data. Well we did a small exercise by eye balling the best fit of the data by long hand. If you know your math you can write the formula for a parabola just as a computer can. Ain't rocket science (well let me take that back :D ), but don't call me on the mat right now to regurgitate it. ;D

I think Quattro Pro became Excel.  Most Microsoft software was rebranded as such after Bill Gates acquired the companies. About the only thing creative from them was DOS and later Windows because Apple beat them to the punch. :D

[beenthere]

BrandonTN
Back then (before SD) we used mechanical calculators...before electricity was put in them.

Then came the 10 x 10 keyboard mechanical calculators with electric motor instead of the crank handle.

Then in the 60's came the electronic keyboard (Wang had the first system that used algorithms to calculate, so sums of squares, square roots, and square of the sums could be tabulated. But a far, far, far cry from the computer power available today....

[SwampDonkey]

Old Baskerville, the Dean of Forestry at the time I went through the program, would fill us in the old days. That's when he worked in government. And we was talking about building sized computers they used at the time when the spruce budworm spray program began back in the late 50's. My laptop has more computing power by far.  :D

[Ron Scott]

The "slide rule" was my high tech item.

[WDH]

Sometimes the good old days are not so good.  Especially without excel .

We used Wang Calculators like BT said.  They were set up in a Lab. 

[BrandonTN]

So I guess back in those days it was the student interns or the greenhorns who spent most of their time doing the long form of what excel does.

And I learned about pivot tables in excel this year. Talk about efficiency! I guess foresters used to do all that by hand, on paper.....good rainy day work, it'd be.

[beenthere]

............ I guess foresters used to do all that by hand, on paper.....good rainy day work, it'd be.

A reason statistics was invented...to sample a population and make estimates, inferences, etc.  ;D ;D

[WDH]

Rainy days and Fridays .

[Ron Scott]

What about evenings also? ;)

[SwampDonkey]

Yeah like Ron said, evenings. I don't remember getting paid for those hours either.  :

[Ron Scott]

Yes, contributed hours, no pay.

[baronthered]

Slide rules and Curta mechanical calculators. Was lucky grew up with electronics but both of those old ones are still usefull, and the batteries never run out.  have an old Curta and a slide rule here for doing light figuring on stress analysis and stuff. Great for thos annoying poweroutages too.

[ID4ster]

SD,

Quatro pro is the spreadsheet program made by Corel. Excell is the spreadsheet program made by Microsoft. I use the Corel products (Quatro pro, Wordperfect, etc.) almost exclusively since they are far easier and more elegant to use than the Microsoft programs. Quatro pro never became Excell because Microsoft can't afford to admit that there is a far better program out there.

In my suveying class at Paul Smith's we weren't allowed to use calculators, only slide rules or long hand. That seems archaic but it did make me relearn to do math in my head and get away from the total dependence on the calculator. Doing the math in my head has actually served me well over the ensuing years and I'm glad now that I was forced to do it in my second year. I still use a calculator to fiqure in and out trees in a prism cruise since it is quicker that way but I can do it if the calc quits on me. In my stats class we had graduated to using Lotus 1-2-3 which was the spreadsheet program that morphed into Excell. I also used a scientific calculator to do stats which really helped on regression analysis. By the way a Poisson distribution wouldn't do much in analyzing a tree plot but it would be useful in determining how many deer are eating your newly planted seedlings. 

[petefrom bearswamp]

In the stone age our stats were calculated with a "sly drool" and a 16 place monroe mechanical calculator.