battery losing charge

[moodnacreek]

The battery in my '06 yale perkins  diesel will not crank the engine over in freezing weather. It does this every winter. I have put 3 new batteries in it, the take out go in other machines and work fine. This diesel will start right up in any weather if it will turn over. It is not a problem in the other 3 seasons unless it sits a long time. This winter I started running it before I quit and disconnecting the neg. battery cable. Makes no difference ! I am stumped .

[WV Sawmiller]

  Have you tried using a block heater on the machine and try it with the oil pre-heated?

[Hilltop366]

I've seen a battery get a thin layer of oil and dirt on it and discharge slowly, a tiny bit of current flowing from the + to - posts across the top of the battery. It would discharge over night.

[barbender]

Are you sure it's not your starter? If sounds like you've listed the battery and it works everywhere else.

[moodnacreek]

 Have you tried using a block heater on the machine and try it with the oil pre-heated?

AS near as I can tell this machine discharges it's battery overnight in cold weather even with a cable removed. This machine is an easy starter and seldom needs it's glow plugs. When I put jumper cables on it pulls the alternator hard on the jumper vehicle. When I bought it [used] it had a new battery in it and We had to boost in to get it off the trailer [ in warm weather]  so I put a new, bigger battery in and thought I fixed it. Done that twice. So I figure it has a slight draw on it, so unhook it at the end of the day. Same problem next morning if below freezing. I have worked on and used junk all my life and never had a battery do it like this. I am missing something.

[moodnacreek]

Are you sure it's not your starter? If sounds like you've listed the battery and it works everywhere else.

I have a new one on the shelf but am convinced it does not need it yet. Of course I could be wrong.

[Old Greenhorn]

Well, I am not a diesel guy, but could it be there is moisture or corrosion in the solenoid that is aggravated by the deep cold? I had a car like that by in the 70's, a 5 dollar solenoid and it never came back. Also, clean terminals are critical in the cold weather.
 Good luck.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Have you checked the amps in the battery at the end of the day then again in the morning? I don't see how there could be much difference if you are unplugging it at night but I'd try that next. Cant hurt.

[Magicman]

Howard, I assume that "checking the amps" you are making a load test? 

A fully charged battery should read 12.7 volts.  If it does not it ain't gonna do much cranking.  Turning a Diesel engine over is not doing much toward making it start.  A Diesel needs to be spun over.

A disconnected battery that discharges overnight is very "suspect".

 

[Gary Davis]

I put a block heater on my garrett 15 it really made a difference, makes it start like it was summertime  

[rusticretreater]

If a battery is disconnected and loses its charge, its a bad battery. No way around that.

If its freezing cold and you replace the battery then, does the engine start?  Then I would suggest you check the charging system for proper operation.  The battery is only for starting the engine, then it runs off of alternator power.  A bad alternator diode can reduce the output of the alternator so there isn't enough surplus power to run the engine and recharge the battery.

It could be a combination of a slightly undercharged battery and a starter that requires higher amperage in the cold.  You replace the battery, check the charging system and wiring and its all ok.  Well then, replace the starter/solenoid.

Oh, does the red battery cable get real hot when trying to start it?  Starter.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I know I have had cars and they would get hard to crank so the mechanic would sell me a new battery, pretty soon same thing, so he'd sell me a new starter, same thing again before long so then he'd sell me a new alternator and that would fix it because when he replaced the alternator he'd tighten the fan belt which was actually the problem all along. : Of course when I'd discuss all those other parts replaced he'd swear they were bad too. ???

[newoodguy78]

All your connections are clean and tight?
Just a thought take a volt reading on the battery right after you disconnect it for the day then one in the morning before you reconnect? Can't imagine a good  battery would change much if any overnight. 
Electrical gremlins are the worst couple them up with cold weather and aggravation is putting it mildly. 

[moodnacreek]

I've seen a battery get a thin layer of oil and dirt on it and discharge slowly, a tiny bit of current flowing from the + to - posts across the top of the battery. It would discharge over night.

In a forklift everything under the seat/hood gets very dirty and there is a metal hold down close to the terminals . Thanks Hilltop

[Nebraska]

I probably mentioned this before but my  diesel stuff gets serviced 2x per year,  I try some where around memorial day to put 15 /40 wt farm store/coop /Rotella oil in and Thanksgiving is it gets changed and 10/ 30 wt goes in for winter.  It flows lots better cold. I set extra batteries on wood blocks in my shop floor and keep them fresh with a trickle charger every so often.  Always need one on a Sunday afternoon when hay needs raked or snow pushed. What this has to do with Doug's issue  I don't know, but  I have also seen a battery heat blanket for cold weather service. I don't know why they would discharge  with a cable removed and the circuit not complete, unless it's crud.

[moodnacreek]

Thanks so much for all the replies. My long winded post this morning went bye bye. I think before I put the new starter in I need to get a load tester to see how much discharge i get overnight.

[mike_belben]

dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series.  measure the current draw and report back.

this is a no crank winter starter. 
 



this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.




pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite.  shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc.  then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys.  blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles. 





when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.  

if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again.  then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug.  try again.  this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.  

if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid.  pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there.  then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes.  that removes the plate sulfation.  you want like 17vdc or more to do this.  its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel. 

[VB-Milling]

dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series.  measure the current draw and report back.

this is a no crank winter starter.




this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.




pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite.  shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc.  then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys.  blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles.





when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.  

if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again.  then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug.  try again.  this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.  

if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid.  pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there.  then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes.  that removes the plate sulfation.  you want like 17vdc or more to do this.  its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel.

Might be the best forum post I've ever read

[mike_belben]

thanks VB, i will be here all week. try the veal 

[Tom King]

My money is on the starter.

[Stephen1]

dust off your 1947 balkamp amp meter, remove battery cable and hook the probes up as a bridge between the cable and the lug, in series.  measure the current draw and report back.

this is a no crank winter starter.




this is the same one now, a powerhouse if the voltage is there.




pull the starter, pull the tail cone off it and check the brushes still have graphite.  shimmy off the corrosion from the commutator with a sand belt or emory etc.  then use a razor blade to scrape the carbon out of the keys.  blow it off and use clamps to get the brushes back in if it has 4 poles.





when you put it back in, wirewheel and file the mating surfaces of the starter nose and block until shiny then copper paste or copper spray or dielectric grease that surface, its the ground circuit.  

if this wont whip over stone cold, add a temporary jumper cable from the batt neg to starter cone, try again.  then add the red lead from battery positive to hot lug.  try again.  this is gonna show you which of your cables sucks so pay close attention.  

if batt is deep discharging it will sulfate the plates and consume the acid.  pull 6 caps under that lying "maintenance free" sticker the conmen at corporate glued over the maintenance ports, and fill with DEIONIZED or DISTILLED water only.. until 3/8 air gap in the vent slit is there.  then hot charge it on a jumper pack start mode until it gasses off some bubbles for a few minutes.  that removes the plate sulfation.  you want like 17vdc or more to do this.  its explosive and poisonous so do it outside the door with a smoke dangling from your lip for effect, you rebel.

Might be the best forum post I've ever read

Made me smile and I'm still smiling.  8)

[Southside]

You could always just get one of these. Just don't get shown up by the little girl.  :D

https://youtu.be/K0I-EHsmkME

[moodnacreek]

You guys are good. Mike, the only voltage tester I own is a lug wrench. Your instructions on cleaning up the starter is common knowledge to me but things like testing the armature [ for 2 bad spots] I forgot how to do. So you have to post everything cause I only know half, thanks.                                                                                                                       The second new battery I put in this fork lift got real weak also and I sent it back to interstate after we charged it and Herb load tested it [ it failed]  They trickle charged it and sent it back and told us the new batteries , if not kept up , must be trickled charged as the vehicle will not do it anymore. Apparently this is correct.  Anyway the forklift started this morning at 7 degrees , barely. I ran it last night as I have a delivery today.

[farmfromkansas]

We had a terrible time with a combine in fall harvest.  Replaced batteries, alternator, still had problems.  So we took the battery cables off and cleaned them up with a file, and used a wire wheel on a battery powered grinder for some of the connections, put them back on and all was good.

[mike_belben]

ive seen a brand new battery cable fail to light a halogen bulb,  it happens.  jumprope with an old cable a few times and itll crank faster.

if youre using a wrench to test batteries barney rubble style i guess a harbor freight multi-meter would be a step up.  atleast you cant glue that to the hood.  


i have been putting moving blankets over my stuff after running it to preserve heat and the birds sure like sleeping in it.  seems to start easier next day.  

if youre gonna ether, dont hose it to a parked engine or itll eventually take the ring lands off.  you wanna fog it in easy while cranking so distribution to each hole is fairly even and small in dose.  find an npt plug in the intake or weld one on the inlet air pipe and run that to a piece of airbrake hose or maple tubing, air compressor tubing etc.  put a bulkhead NPT fitting through the dash or firewall or floor, with an NPT cap.  this way you can wiff it in from the comfort of your stone cold drivers seat while cranking.  much much safer than spraying and jumping in to crank all that ether to the first glowplug that lights it off.