For those of you who are woodworkers as well as sawyers, what do you consider the optimum diameter tree for milling? Is there an optimum size?
I know we all like wide boards but my jointer only has an 8" wide bed so it doesn't make much sense to accumulate a lot of lumber much wider than it will accommodate. I'm not into surfacing wide stock with hand planes and a router setup is not practical except for thick slabs, IMHO.
I know you can cut most any size lumber out of a large log but they are a lot more work, too, especially for manual mills.
I'm thinking 16" - 18" logs for flat-sawn would be about right but what says the more experienced here?
Can you tell it's getting cooler weather here and I'm gearing up to get the mill going? ;D ;D ;D
I love logs that are 16"-30". You get lotsa production for the log setup.
I'm going to buck the trend and say about 48". Not due to the width of boards, I usually only cut 8" wide, but can do 16". Just that the big trees generally have the best boards, even if they are cut into 8x1s.
Set up the mill once and just keep sawing until the log is gone. ;D
But this is for a swingblade mill, I realise there is an optimal size for a band mill, and the equipment you have to handle the logs. When you start pushing the limits of your equipment it gets harder, dangerous, not fun anymore etc.
Ian
I like the logs to be 10" minimum on the small end.
Ideal to me is 20 to 30 inches.
To small on the mill and they're a lot of extra handling for what you get out of them and to big and it's just a lot more work, although you get lots of board footage!
I like logs in the 24" area. My tractor can pick them up, my back can turn them, and you get a decent amount of lumber. I would have to think that each sawyer would answer differently. If you own a large fork lift and a large mill, handling the big ones isnt such a chore. Although those big ones sure can tear stuff up!Brian
About 20" for me on the LT15. I can turn the 10 footers by myself with the LogRite Megahook, and the quality is better, and the recovery is better, and I can cut some wide clear thick stock like 6/4 and 8/4.
Cody, it is interesting that you mention the jointer. I used to saw to focus on the main cant width to be ultimately the width of the jointer limitations because I was looking at it from the standpoint of a woodworker, not a sawyer. I found that people that buy wood prefer the wider boards, especially the good grade ones, and you can charge a premium for them (I add 50 cents per BF for anything 10" wide and wider in furniture grade hardwood). Now I go for max width-max quality.
When I am doing a project and the boards are over 8" wide, I do two things. To flatten the board before planing I either 1). Take the guard off the jointer and joint one side on the jointed face, then rotate the board around and joint the other side of the jointed face. That works OK. 2). Rip the board into two pieces, joint, plane, and glue them back together book matched. I use chalk to mark the end grain of each of the two pieces so that I can easily put them back together the way they were whole. It also helps deal with any cup. You cannot even tell that the board was ripped into two pieces in most cases.
I realize that it is counter-intuitive that a woodworker would prefer stock that is wider than their jointer bed, but for many, the lure of the wide board is too much to take.
I only custom saw for customers and do no sell lumber, but it tickles me how many times that the customer will deviate from his cut list when he sees W I D E cants and log faces. They just sorta get into the customer's eyes and they just have to have a few slices. Many times they will say "I have no idea what I am going to do with them but they were too pretty to pass up". :)
I can definitely understand the allure of wide boards. I like them too. Ripping and re-gluing as Danny outlined is the best method I've found for overcoming my jointer width limitation. It makes for perfect grain matching but it's still a PITA sometimes to get the glue-up just right so that no further flattening is necessary.
I appreciate the responses and the insight into the process.
For the most part, I saw what I cut. :D Depends on what it is, with brought in logs. Cedar and certain hardwoods, I will saw for folks predominantly on halves. If they want to be stingy ;D, they pay more, moneywise. All that, to say that I prefer around the 16" size of logs gettin' in the swing of things (manal mill). I sell very little wood that I accumulate. If it is something pretty juicy, I'll whittle it down to mill size and fool with it as long as it takes...kinda like Magic, I like the challenge. For the wood work, it doesn't matter too much what width it is. I've milled a few sticks on my vertical bandsaw. :)
Quote from: WDH on October 08, 2012, 07:18:38 AM
I realize that it is counter-intuitive that a woodworker would prefer stock that is wider than their jointer bed, but for many, the lure of the wide board is too much to take.
Lucky for me, I don't own a jointer. I want my boards as wide as possible. Give me 24-36" logs all day long :)
I too have an 8" joiner but I still want them as wide as possible.
Usually, there is little warp or cup and just sending them through the planer is sufficient.
I use light passes on the planer so there is not a lot of down pressure on the board. I don't want to artifically flatten it with heavy pressure only to have it pop back up on the other side.
If it is warped and thickness allows, I will put it back on the sawmill and let the mill act as a joiner then lay that face down on the planer bed. The mill also works great to take bow out of a board and give a nice straight edge.
For those cases that are just too severe ripping is the only answer.
My ideal log to yield 8" or less stock though would be in the 12-14" range.
Heres my perspective keeping in mind ive been building furniture for over 30 years. My wife tells me size doesnt matter, in this case i agree. ;D. The wider the board the higher the chance of movement, twist, cup, bow. Ive seen two many examples of people trying to build something out of a wide board, and then seeing their sadness in watching it twist etc. When someone wants a large object built and with no veneer plywood i rip and re glue the boards paying to close attention to the grain patterns. My planner can handle up to 18 inches. If there wider than that i join the panels together. Ive never had a piece come back because of movement or glue separation.
I'm with bedway on this one. I too have been in the woodworking buisness for 25 years. The only time I like wide boards is when I'm building reproduction furniture and they are usually 18" walnut boards. Anything else and I just rip the boards flip the grain and glue it back together. If I put a 15" or larger board in a door panel I could almost guarentee the door would bow. And if you are using alot of boards during the day in the shop the wide ones get heavy. I personally am for 4" to 10" stock.
You have to pick your battles with the wide boards. Some species simply behave better than others.
Walnut seems pretty stable, and our local Monterey cypress, Rimu or Kauri can be used on large pieces.
19" wide kitchen counter. 2 1/4" finished thickness. It doesn't move for anything :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/000_0661s.jpg)
Fish tank stand with 24" wide top. OK it's had a 40 gallon fish tank on top of it for the last 7 years, so it hasn't moved either.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/P1050126s.JPG)
Other woods? Yeah. movement can be an issue and you can certainly get cupping across a single wide board like that.
I've still got this little board in the shed too, should be nice and dry by now ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/P1010517.JPG)
Ian
I have two favorite sizes. Around 6-9" is one and 20-24" is the other. I like 6-9 because I can take 4 slabs and the cant is square, no edging. I like 20-24 because it is abou what my support equiptment can handle fairly easily and you get higher quality lumber. When I am sawing 6-9" logs, it is usually cedar. Lumber from hardwood logs that are that small would be pretty poor quality.
Quote from: Ianab on October 08, 2012, 03:51:33 PM
You have to pick your battles with the wide boards. Some species simply behave better than others.
Walnut seems pretty stable, and our local Monterey cypress, Rimu or Kauri can be used on large pieces.
19" wide kitchen counter. 2 1/4" finished thickness. It doesn't move for anything :D
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/P1050126s.JPG)
Fish tank stand with 24" wide top. OK it's had a 40 gallon fish tank on top of it for the last 7 years, so id hasn't moved either.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/000_0661s.jpg)
Other woods? Yeah. movement can be an issue and you can certainly get cupping across a single wide board like that.
I've still got this little board in the shed too, should be nice and dry by now ;)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/P1010517.JPG)
Ian
Thats true, different species do better then others exspecially when cut thicker then 4/4. I have had some good luck with wide boards but to guarantee a piece for a customer I prefer narrow boards. Just my thought. I've seen antique tabels with 16" plus wide boards and they still look great.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/door.jpg)
Now you guys tell me about wide boards. Just made 21 doors with raised panels from 8" too 14" and not one was a glue up.
And I sold my jointer long time ago to buy more beer. :D
I am not a wood worker, but think I could. I cut for a few ole masters of the trade, and one will always take a wide board down and glue narrow ones together. The other will stack, air dry and work the wide ones. Both are good at what they do, just different approaches. It all is a learned skill and craft that cannot be bought from a book, this is for sure. You guys that are doing this work are doing a good job, very nice work! Thanks for the pics.
Quote from: Larry on October 08, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
Now you guys tell me about wide boards. Just made 21 doors with raised panels from 8" too 14" and not one was a glue up.
And I sold my jointer long time ago to buy more beer. :D
Those are certainly great looking doors. Fine work that. However, the test will be what they do over a few years of seasonal movement. If they were dried stress-free they will probably look the same in five years...great.
I know there are ways to work without one but I would hate to do woodworking without my jointer. For straightening an edge or flattening a face, there is no better, faster tool. The tablesaw, jointer and planer are essential tools to me...flatten a face, joint one edge, plane to thickness, rip to width + 1/16", joint the ripped edge. That's the routine I use for everything except curved pieces. YMMV of course.
Hear! Hear!
I'm in the "there are other ways" camp with regards to jointing ;)
This is my jig.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/ianab_slab_surfacer05.jpg)
Big router mounted on mill frame to let me joint and plane any size board, well anything I can cut with my mill anyway.
The sharp end
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/ianab_slab_surfacer06.jpg)
Finished result, ready for sanding.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/ianab_slab_surfacer07.jpg)
A Jointer is much quicker and more practical for sensible size boards of course, but this gets the job done on the 12" plus stuff.
Ian
I was teasing a bit about the jointer ;D. I have one but what use is an 8" jointer when one has 20" wide boards? Of course if you have a flat board you don't need to face joint. The boards I used dried from 80 to 8% mc content without warp so I doubt if they will warp when going from 7 to 9% in seasonal movement.
The secret is to pick straight vertical trees. Big trees don't cup near as much as smaller trees. Buck to eliminate knots. Don't mix sapwood with heartwood. Don't mix juvenile wood with heartwood. Taper saw with 180 degree rotation to keep the grain even. When air drying keep the wood from being re-wetted.
I started using wide boards about 20 years ago when I got my first mill. I had some problems with warp just as described. Eventually I got it figured out and haven't had any problems with doors in better than 10 years.
According to the scale I'm buying them on Doyle I want 12 and under scribner I want 12 and over Int don't want them lol Prod wise prob a 16 to 20 in log 12 long
I'm with Ian, in that the bigger the log, the better. I can cut 8.5 with the Lucas, but I rarely use them that wide in woodworking. Most of the time I keep my boards 6-8" wide unless they are structural 2 x stock.
I have a 6" jointer in my shop, and a jig I can use to flatten stuff on my 20" spiral head planer. If those arent big enough, I just turn my Lucas into a jointer and I can flatten up to 60" wide.
Quote from: Larry on October 08, 2012, 09:32:33 PM
The boards I used dried from 80 to 8% mc content without warp so I doubt if they will warp when going from 7 to 9% in seasonal movement.
I'm with you, Larry. If the boards dry flat, they will stay flat. If they don't, then by all means cut them up into bits and pieces. But don't glue your bits and pieces back together thinking that your panel is now more stable than a wide board that dried flat to begin with. Your cabinet doors look great - much better than the mis-matched crud that most cabinet shops make. You can't blame them though, because 99% of consumers don't know any better. I do know better, so I prefer wide boards. ;D
Easy on the cabinet shops. Most if not all cabinet shops don't have there own sawmill or kiln. If I cut down a tree and then sawed the lumber and dried it myself and saw how the wood dried I would feel much better about using wide boards that I personally cut. Not everybody has this option so they must protect themselves by using smaller stock. Lets be fair! Nothing wrong with wide boards if the grain is right and they are dried right. But if you are sending a piece out your door to a customer you do everything you can to prevent warping, cupping, cracking and shrinkage or the piece will most likely come back. Gluing boards together isn't crud it's insurance. And not knowing where the wood comes from it's the right thing to do.
For me it depends on application. If I'm sawing live edge slabs for rustic furniture, I like wide. If I'm sawing maple for my cues, I like 15" logs. If i'm sawing for general purpose dimensioned lumber then I like 18-24". My mill will slab through a 30" log, but I rarely have anything that large on there. Most times I'm alone & big logs are a job to handle with limited equipment and a cant hook. I do have to say that my 60" Logrite is the nuts & allows me to easily handle some pretty big logs. Bought it when Baileys had them on sale.....best bang for buck money I ever spent on mill equipment.