What to plant on bottomland?

[locustoak]

We own a few acres on "bottom land" in Indiana.   It's the floodplain of a creek that runs through it, although it might only flood once a year or every other year.  The land has many ash trees on it, and with the ash borer a hundred miles away and closing fast, I thought it would be a good idea to start clearing out some of the poor quality ash, and get some other trees growing.  Currently there's also Walnut, Hackberry, and burr oak on it with a sprinkling of other trees.

I want to plant trees that are going to be bring a good return when they are ready to harvest.  So the fewer "pallet wood" trees, the better.   The plan right now is to get some burr oaks and walnuts started, and then plant a few of some other species. I was thinking of planting some silver maple, Kentucky coffee bean, and honey locust, but will they have good value?  Also I was thinking Sugar maple and Cherry, but do they grow well on a floodplain?  Any other trees that would bring a good return?

Thanks ahead of time!

[BrandonTN]

Cherrybark oak (Quercus pagoda) is a great oak in bottomlands. It grows mostly along the coastal plain, but I believe its range extends northward up the Mississippi Valley. The tree is known for its great form....tall and straight. Valuable timber tree.

[Lanier_Lurker]

Another good oak species to consider is shumard oak.  I read that they tolerate bottom land conditions as well.  This species also appears to range naturally throughout most of Indiana.

If you can find a good seed source nearby in the same hardiness zone, this might be a good choice.

[Texas Ranger]

walnut

[oscarstilley]

Cherrybark is a super oak, and its native range extends into southern Indiana.  You can plant outside the native range somewhat, and cherrybark oak is well worth the effort.  It has the best red oak timber you can buy.  I recommend you buy seedlings at www.arborgen.com, (http://www.arborgen.com/forest/oak.php) Browse around there a bit, they have the most amazing selection, and their quality is unsurpassed.

Shumard is another fine red oak, and its range covers most of the state.

I recommend overcup oak as a member of the white oak group to balance out the cherrybark oak.  Once again the range hits southern Indiana.  White oak and swamp white oak are two more good white oaks native to the entire state.  You get slower growth but a better price per board foot with white oak.  Overcup is in my perception faster growing than white oak (quercus alba).  Bur oak is another white oak, with large acorns, and its range covers the whole state and beyond.

If you are trying to get some diversity but don't want to buy so many kinds of seedlings, try www.treeshrubseeds.com.  They run a great business, and their website has a lot of useful info about various seeds.  For example, they will tell you what you need to do to get a particular seed to sprout.  It is amazing the variation in what is required to get a seed to break dormancy.  In some cases it is reasonably practical to plant some acorns to try to get diversity, but you will have to look out for a lot of things like squirrels, that eat seeds but not seedlings.  Also, seedlings put you nearly a year ahead of the game, under most circumstances.  Ask your local forester if you should rip or bed your soil, that makes it easier for you to find the rows, plant, etc. 

Don't forget that if you can prepare the site sufficiently, you might be able to generate substantial cash early on by selling trees for landscaping.  I have a client who generates a substantial cash flow that way.   It won't hurt your timber growing, because you'll have to thin the timber anyway.  You might as well make a little extra cash.

If you can site prep well enough to bush hog between the rows, you'll be way ahead of the game.  If you can keep the competition down for a few years, your trees will start shading out the junk.  Even better, if you can grow something between the rows and rake it toward the trees for mulch, you will have amazing results.  I know that's an expense, but a good mulch really gets the mycorrhizal fungi going, and the mycorrhizal fungi is what makes hardwoods grow fast and vigorously. 

Black haws (viburnum prunifolium) paw paws, wild plums, hazelnut, and mayhaw all add to the beauty and diversity.  They're really cheap at www.arborgen.com in quantities of 1,000.  I am thinking that it might be worth while to set up a website here to take orders and then break them out to people that want smaller quantities.  By way of example, paw paws are $300 per 1.000, $60 per hundred, and $40 for 25.  They're still a bargain for 25, but it would be great to let people get a few of a lot of different items for a better price, once a year.  It just isn't practical to try to maintain availability at prices less than those charged by ArborGen.  I have a website that could be used for that purpose, that I am not using right now.

Get a copy of your soil survey and study it.  It's a great resource.  Your agricultural extension office should have it or know where to get it, for your county.  Their maps are detailed, accurate, and very helpful.

White Shield bois d'arc (hedge-apple, or horse apple) is a good possibility.  It is nearly thornless, completely fruitless, has a better habit than the species, and grows quickly.  It is best planted from cuttings taken in winter.  It is a valuable wood, extremely tough, strong, and durable.

You might be able to plant some black walnut, depending on your soil.  Make sure your selections match your soil.  I'd try some basswood (great for honeybees) a few shagbark hickories (bats raise babies under the bark, especially if you have a clear trunk that gets full sun) some Chinese chestnut (really nice straight grained wood, splits straight, in addition to tasty nuts) and maybe a bit of American beech (interesting for carving) sugar maple, and black cherry, if you can get small quantities at a reasonable price. 

Good luck!  Ask if you have questions.

Oscar Stilley

[SwampDonkey]

Sugar maple isn't suited too well for bottom land, but yellow birch and red maple are a couple options. Yellow birch veneer is worth more than sugar maple up here. Be aware it's like candy to the deer and rodents.   :

Was also thinking cherry (sweet, black) birch , but it has a deep spreading root system, not suited to bottom land so much. Yellow will grow on the better white cedar sites up here. I've got one 25 inches dbh that was in a cedar forest with aspen, ash and red maple.

[Ron Scott]

Get a copy of your soil survey and study it.  It's a great resource.  Your agricultural extension office should have it or know where to get it, for your county.  Their maps are detailed, accurate, and very helpful.

Good advice!!

[woodtroll]

I think he is to far south for yellow birch. Stick with the oaks that have been suggested with a few walnuts. Good bottom land soil they should do very well.

[jeffreythree]

I have had to consider what to plant in bottomland, also.  Found this site helpful for the soil map: http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/HomePage.htm .  I have also had good experience with Arborgen for seedlings.  They did not mind a bit taking my small order and made sure they sent me the stock for my soil and location.  Check out their seedling catalog as it has more species than the website lists: http://arborgen.com/cms/upload/ArborGen_2009ProductCatalog.pdf

[tyb525]

I have not seen any birch growing wild in Indiana. Where are you located in the state? Some of our land is floodplain.

[SwampDonkey]

Possibly growing on the fringe in the north I see. Might be too warm a climate. Yellow birch up here grows on a wide variety of sites, but does not like poorly drained ground.

[woodtroll]

Likely there is river birch. Not real valuable, but it does make nice wood.
The http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/ is perfect for soil info. And relatively easy to use.

[locustoak]

Thanks for the help everyone, especially oscarstilley!  I appreciate it. 

Tyb525:  I'm in Northcentral Indiana.

[woodtroll]

Are you planting by seed or seedling?

[jrdwyer]

I will just add that it appears to be an excellent year for walnuts and acorns in Southern Indiana and is probably similar in central IN. I recommend going with nature and direct seeding the appropriate species for the site at a high rate and then thinning later if the survival is good and density is too high.

[routestep]

Plant wheat, corn or a hay field. On not so bottom land plant your trees.

[locustoak]

woodtroll:  I'll be planting by seed from trees that are already close by.

jrdwyer:  Thanks.

With EAB closing in, I think I'll start replacing some of the ash trees with kentucky coffee bean.  I really like the look of the wood, and from what I understand, there isn't a big price difference between the two?

[SwampDonkey]

Sassafras wood grain looks more like ash, if your going for the look. It has a distinct odour when fresh cut that separates the two without going microscopic.  ;)

[Norm]

I have some land that is identical to yours. If it's an ag drainage it will have the herbicides in it, with atrazine the worst for a hay and beans. Alfalfa does not like having it's feet wet so you can rule that out. We try corn and soybeans but have not had much luck with those. Finally we just let nature take it's course and what has survived is mostly river willow and black walnut. We kill off the willow and let the walnuts reseed by the squirrels that are attracted to the nuts. You could obviously help this out by disking up in the fall and spreading some walnuts and give it a pass with a harrow. I've been real impressed with how well the walnuts tolerate the wet mucky soils and best off it is by far the most valuable sawlog we have.

[locustoak]

Thanks Norm.  I wondered if the agricultural drainage has any effect on what grows there.  The Bull-needles grow like trees on  our land. 

I went ahead and planted some wild cherry seeds today.  We do have a few cherry trees that grow there, one of them is 24" diameter.  I also took a look at a 12" cherry tree stump that the beavers girdled a couple years ago.  There were some large growth rings, some nearly 1/2" (radius).  So I guess cherry might do OK on this land.

Now I'm waiting for the burr oaks and walnut trees to drop their nuts so I can plant some of those.  I can't find any coffee bean trees that have seeds so that's off the lift for this planting.  Maybe I'll try a couple honey locust while I wait for the coffee bean trees to give me some beans.

[woodtroll]

Don't plant honey locust, they will show up anyway and be a thorn in your side for the rest of the time you manage.
It may be a little early for coffee beans, look for the pods developing.
White oaks (bur included) need to be planted as soon as you find them. Walnut you have a little time. Cherry should come in on its own if you have a seed source. Birds do better then us.
Keep your eye out for shumard and cherry bark. It takes a lot of seed to get successful trees.
Good luck.

[Norm]

I would also avoid the honey locust. We get them regardless of planting but boy what a pain they are to deal with. I have some bottom land that we bought a few years ago that is covered with it. On one hand it makes some pretty lumber but has no commercial value. On the other hand I've made the tire repair shop better off trying to clear it. :D

[locustoak]

Get a copy of your soil survey and study it.  It's a great resource.  Your agricultural extension office should have it or know where to get it, for your county.  Their maps are detailed, accurate, and very helpful.

Ok, I have a copy of the soil report sitting in front of me.  It says the land is all Genesee silt loam and gives a list of properties and qualities.  Now how do I use this information to decide what to plant?

[Tom]

http://www2.ftw.nrcs.usda.gov/osd/dat/G/GENESEE.html

The link above came from a google search of your soil type.  I found it interesting reading and they even indicate trees that will do well.

"USE AND VEGETATION: Commonly cleared and used to grow corn and soybeans. The native vegetation is deciduous forest, chiefly of beech, elm, hickory, hackberry, buckeye, sugar maple, and ash."

Being the glutton that I am, I generally tend to lean toward stuff that I can eat.  :D

[locustoak]

Thanks everyone.  I looked it up and it says to plant:  Bitternut & shellbark hickory, Black Walnut, Bur oak, Kentucky Coffee tree, Pin oak, or Shumard oak.

[WDH]

Black walnut and shumard oak will have the best long term timber value if that is important to you.  At least in the South, hickory has low to no value, so I would steer clear of it.

[locustoak]

Thanks.  Yeah, i trying to get the most value I can out of the land.  The squirrels have helped me out and have many nice straight and clear walnuts already started for me.  My neighbor might have a shumard on his property, so I'm going to see if I can get some nuts from it.  I think for the oaks, I will plant more bur oak than shumard.  I really like the looks of white oak lumber compared to red oak.  Plus the squirrels & deer really love the bur acorns.

I still think I will plant just a little bit of hickory, silver maple, and Kentucky coffee tree just for the sake of diversification. But if they don't grow nice and straight, then they will be thinned out. But the majority will be bur oak/walnut/shumard(If i can get acorns).

Thanks again for the help everyone.  Really it's a shame I have to do this.  That darn EAB is practically on my doorstep, and we have plenty of white ash that they will devour.

[woodtroll]

The different kinds of oak are really cool, and a bottom site is good opportunity. Look at (in no specific order) swamp white oak, cherry bark, overcup oak (for really wet spots), swamp chestnut, and the bur oak. Shumard can grow very large don't discount them. Pin oaks are ok but I would not plant them, to branchy. You can get good acorn mast from the other reds. Perfect size for ducks. See if you can get the bur that produce the large acorns, about the size of a ping pong ball.  Oh lastly if you are planting from seed, get the white oaks in this fall/winter. You have a little more time with the red oaks.

[Magicman]

I planted a combination of Shumard, Swamp Chesnut, and Cherrybark Redoak in my open bottomland January, '08.  It looks like my mortality rate was low, as I am seeing a lot of new growth this year.

I had sprayed to kill the native grasses, etc. and had subsoiled.  I'll go back through and do some "hack and squirt" on unwanted volunteer trees next year.

[Magicman]

I took a couple of pictures this week showing my oaks that were planted January '08.  They were knee height when planted.

Shumard Oak





Swamp Chesnut Oak





A view of the planted bottomland with some volunteer pecan and persimmon that will be hack n squirted





Another view showing pines in the background that were planted in January '05






Showing the growth of the '05 planted pines

[fishpharmer]

Looks good, where is a good place to buy hardwood seedlings in MS?

[SwampDonkey]

Nice growth on your oaks. I have had some red oak in the garden for almost 8 years, the tallest might be 4 feet now. I started them from seed. I worked up the spot and raked in the seed, covered with sugar maple leaves. I don't know how many went in, but it was a 3 gallon pale. I lost a lot to mice girdling. Grass is a problem because it hosts rodents in the winter. If you just have low herbs the hardwood do better provided we have no moose or deer come by. Moose sneak up from the woods and nibble my yellow birch and oak tops sometimes. My yellow birch are nearly 8 feet tall, planted in 2002. Yellow birch grows slower than maple.

[Magicman]

Looks good, where is a good place to buy hardwood seedlings in MS?

I bought 5K from Molpus Timberlands in Fairhope, Alabama.  I set out 2K Cherrybark, 2K Shumard, and 1K Swamp Chesnut.  I planted them on 10-12 spacing. 

I lost a lot to mice girdling.

I also lost some to mice girdling, but overall, I had a good survival rate.  The grass and weeds will now offer some protection from deer. After next year, I'll let volunteer trees go which will help provide natural pruning.

[woodtroll]

What would happen if you just hacked the pecan and persimmon hold the squirt. It would give the oaks some time before competing.  They would resprout offering a diverse mast source. Persimmon would be soft mast too, good for those big bucks that walk in front of your sights.  The persimmon also don't seem to last long, 30-40 years and most will die off. Pecan would not be my crop tree, but diversity is good.

[Magicman]

What would happen if you just hacked the pecan and persimmon hold the squirt.

This will probably be the last year to hack n squirt.  This will allow the oaks to grow enough height that they won't have trash trees compromising their canopy space.  Because of crows, pecan saplings grow like weeds here.  Persimmon and Honey Locust are also very plentiful and a royal pain in the butt.   :(  I'll let all of the volunteer trees (except Sweetgum and Honey Locust) grow starting next year.   

[WDH]

Nice looking site.  Those pines love it as you can see from their growth.  Deer browse might be an issue on the oaks, especially cherrybark, so you need to keep them thinned down (and I don't mean the oaks)  ;D.

[locustoak]

Hey magicman, on how many acres did you plant all those seedlings?  Looks good

[Magicman]

Hey magicman, on how many acres did you plant all those seedlings?  Looks good

About 15 acres with the 5K oak seedlings.  That gives me about 235 acres with old growth hardwood, 75 acres of planted pine, and about 20 acres of open land.  That's where I plant deer food plots, etc.

[Tom]

What is the tall grass growing in the planted field.  some of it looks like a reed of some sort. Some has a seed head that looks like an invasive that is growing down here.

[Magicman]

What is the tall grass growing in the planted field.  some of it looks like a reed of some sort. Some has a seed head that looks like an invasive that is growing down here.

Broom sedge (spelling?) is what the old folks called it.  They actually made brooms out of it.  It'll grow to about 4' high and turn golden when it dies in the Winter. I guess that it is considered as a native grass, but I really don't know.  As a matter of fact, we always called that field the "Straw Field".

[SwampDonkey]

Sedges grow wild up here, usually on wetlands. Not really a grass though, has serrations on the stocks, triangular cross section . "Sedges have edges" as the saying goes. I notice the little birds feed on the seeds in winter.

[Magicman]

This stuff has round stems.  I've just never known if the old folks were saying sedge or sage and never asked.  Now they are all gone and I can't ask.  Maybe I need to do some research?

[SwampDonkey]

Rushes, like soft rush, have round stems and have soft broom-like flowers on the ends that droop.




These are just beginning to flower, and will elongate out the end.

[WDH]

I see some switch cane in the first pic.  That is a good old bottomland species. 

Magicman, it is definitely not sedge like SD shows.  The sedges down here grow mostly in saturated areas or where surface water is common like SD points out in his wetland comment.  I see several species of grass, one of which is broomsage like you pointed out.