Hydro-Ax 670 Documents

Tony Wells · February 24, 2020, 08:01:38 PM

FWJoe, no, you're on point. Right now there are some mysteries to this machine and I am approaching it with some trepidation. I appreciate all the input here. I'm a little out of my element on feller bunchers, but I'll catch on fast. It's just a shame I have a deadline on a project and this is the only one we have right now. I really need to get it going. The guys would haul it out tomorrow if I get it done. It appears that it really isn't happy in high gear either. From a standing start, it does what I call "cogging", sort of jumping from one tooth to the next in the gearbox, as though the gears are not fully meshed. I got the shifter box reworked today and although it seems all well and good, I found this: (I'll try again on the pic)

Naturally, although the top end of the cable mechanism is in fair shape, that won't work. I'm thinking about removing the mechanism and cable to have here at the shop, in case of a brainstorm (hope no one is injured) and I see a way to possibly fix it. I'm also going to get with some of the parts people recommended by you guys. I personally would rather fix it than rig it. I'm actually a machinist by profession, and a bit OCD. I lost part of my thumb, and I'm 90% deaf, and have a handful of bad discs, and arthritis. So, I just happened to have a long time friend who lets me work on what I want and feel like and it keeps me out of the bars and stuff. I'm oilfield, but not roughneck. I come from the instrument and motor side of directional drilling, the stuff they send down to see what they are doing. That and the motors used downhole and all the associated bits and pieces (BHA - Bottom Hole Assembly). So I'm familiar with big, heavy, powerful equipment, and I've always worked on things. Anything from watches and the little precision indicators used in machine shops all the way to rotary tables and some of the surface equipment. Some of it is killer stuff, so I try not to be stupid. Someday I may tell how I lost my thumb. It wasn't in a machine shop. (sigh) Enough biography. I only work part time. It's all I'm able, and it ends up jobs nobody wants to do, or they are so messed up it takes lots of patience and understanding of how machines work.
I'll try a couple more pics.

Judging by the date on the tag, it may mean the machine is an '04 or '05. I haven't found that decoder ring yet.

We will see what tomorrow brings. More of the same, I expect :D

kiko · February 24, 2020, 08:18:50 PM

That is the side cut door cylinder. FW Joe said that both clamp and accumulator must be closed to operate. It will lift that door to expose the saw for the first cut on large trees without having to change angles for the two cuts . I keep adding on , but these are my second favorite machine.

Tony Wells · February 24, 2020, 08:49:02 PM

kiko, that makes sense. I probably just haven't got the combination right to open that side cut door. I'll check it out tomorrow. I believe there are some decent size trees on the project so that should be useful.

You just keep adding on, you're adding to my education and I appreciate it.

timberking, DeQueen is close enough I'd drive to get parts if they had something I needed. Thanks for another source.

kiko · February 24, 2020, 10:15:47 PM

Have you discovered that the cab can jacked over for access?

Tony Wells · February 24, 2020, 10:20:18 PM

Oh yes. It would be virtually impossible to work on a lot of it if it didn't knock over.

Firewoodjoe · February 25, 2020, 05:19:48 AM

Steering, lifting, bunching arm, accumulate arm, dump button(opens both arms), and front diff lock is all on the joy sticks. I wouldn't worry about the shift cable just get the gear box in low gear and see if it runs smooth. Fix the cable latter. Also the side cut is very handy but not needed. You can cut very large trees with the normal front face of the head. 30-40". The side cut always you to do it with out having to turn around and cut both sides of the tree. The only real issues we ever had was the wiring harness running through the center section but that's really any equipment. Just jump in it and cut some brush and smaller trees. You can't hurt the machine. Never run it around people as the teeth WILL come off. I said will not might. New bolts every set of teeth and the shoulders have to be tight. No wiggle. Check saw bearing and lots of grease in those two fitting by the side cut cylinder in your picture. Rev it wide open and have fun. They will tip way past your pucker factor. That feeling will come in time and before long you'll be on three wheels through out the day.

Mountaynman · February 25, 2020, 07:10:58 AM

Unless its drasticly different down there in texas very rare anything u need will be in stock at a dealer you probably wont have to chase any parts they will just drop ship them direct to you best of luck with your project only sold a couple of those wheeled machine this is track buncher country they did make a few of those machines that had the ability to interchange with mulchers, stumpgrinders and rotary cutters might be a nice find for a contractor if yours is like that if you can track down the build sheet should tell all

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 08:28:21 AM

The plan for today is to just do that: Get it into Low gear. My question is will it stay or will I need to wire it in place or put a turnbuckle on it or anything like that? The lever arm is very sloppy on the shaft coming out of the gearbox (happens to be a Sauer Danfoss). Trans is indeed a Terrell by Durst.

Around the shop I don't think there are any trees left to test with, so I may have to haul it out to the job. Owner would be thrilled if I tell him it's ready for that today. Then I'll get to play with it a bit.

You mentioned electrical. That reminds me of a major need for a schematic. The dash is almost void of information. I have oil pressure. That's all I know. The smart readout on the left side just says "no diagnostics available" or something like that. If the gearshift goes ok, I'm at least going to see if I can get the tach and temp working. The rest can wait, but I do want to keep an eye on the temp. Wide open, as you say, sounds about right.

And I'll pass along the fair warning about the teeth. I know how most of the operators treat the equipment we have with teeth. We spend a LOT of money on our hammer teeth. But much of that is not truly their fault. In the mulch yard, we take in supposedly clean cuts and brush from the public also, but every once in a while, something that won't grind gets dropped in Hogzilla or one of others. Yard super has a chunk of steel about the size of a football on his desk that looks pretty rough.

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 08:42:16 AM

Mountaynman, here in Tyler, this isn't really timber country. The Piney Woods area is a little south of me. Best we do close to me is some pulp wood cutting. It only starts getting more serious about 70 miles or so south around Lufkin/Nacogdoches. So I'm sure you're right. I can most likely get engine parts, and maybe some driveline stuff, but anything particular to cutting and handling will have to be brought in for me, or I'll have to do a little driving.

I see more wheeled equipment around here, although I do have a couple of Gyro-Trac mulchers in the fleet. They are problematic. I'll get around to those eventually. The hot job I am chasing right now involves moving a lot of dirt after the timber is cut, so the plan is to just chip the tops and limbs on-site and haul them back to the yard for processing into mulch and compost. We've been tasked with removing approximately 9 feet average depth over about 5 acres ASAP, as part of a larger project. I haven't calculated it, but that's a good amount of dirt. Obviously can't move the dirt until it's clear. Texas has just about all varieties of terrain. Lots of people watch old Westerns and think Texas is all desert, and yes, West Texas is pretty flat and dry, other than the mountains like the Davis Mountains. Dry, but not so flat. But then we have a lush, green valley (Big Bend country) where lots of fruit and vegetable crops are harvested. Then the Eastern areas where there are rolling hills and pastures leading into the wooded areas. Seems we have it all, including coastal plains along the GoM.

Firewoodjoe · February 25, 2020, 11:46:18 AM

The engine tach should be digital and just rev it till it won't rev no more. The other tach should be your saw speed. Not really a handy tool I ever thought.

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 08:27:04 PM

Well, on the right, there is an analog tach, and admittedly I have not looked at it with the blade spinning, so you are probably correct. The "smart" meter will cycle through at least some of the operating conditions. Some history is stored, but I have my doubts. It tells that the machine has burned some 72,000+ gallons of fuel, and maybe so, but I have a hard time accepting that. I can get the oil temp and a few other important pieces of data. It's got an alarm light, but I have little confidence in it at this point. I doubt the operator will be scrolling through the menu while cutting. At least he better not be. The guy selected for this machine was raised in a logging family, so he's very familiar with these machines. He's also a decent mechanic, so I feel better about sending it out knowing he's running it.

Today there was no joy. I gathered the hardware to hold the shift lever in Low position, a turnbuckle, some S-hooks, a spring and some other stuff. I went ahead and removed the entire control cable while I was in there. It will probably get replaced, because.....THERE IS NO LOW GEAR! Probably shelled off the teeth some time in the past. Auction machine, so no telling the history. I was hoping this would work out for a bit, at least for this first section of this job. It's just 5 acres, but the whole thing is 50, so it would probably need a review sometimes soon after the first 5 hot acres. So the flames just got higher...and hotter. Now I have to get one of the young strong guys to pull it (I can't - messed up back) so I can have a look inside and see if there is anything I can do to repair it, while I look for a replacement. I've heard there's a place in Arlington, TX that deals in them, so in the morning they get a call. It acts as though the fork is not moving the, well not synchronizer ring since it isn't synchromesh, but the corresponding part (can't recall the proper name at the moment). But it has to be, or I would not be able to get it in and out of High range. So something is broken on the Low side. I've seen manual gearboxes with similar issues that were simply burred over enough to keep the splines from sliding and that's from people jamming the gears together when the synchronizers are worn out. I just hope it's not the gear itself. Pain to make. If I can find a rebuild shop maybe they would sell me a gear, I don't know. I don't really have time to send it out and wait on a rebuild. An exchange would work though. Kind of have a bad feeling about it though. It's not a new machine. Just have to wait and see.

Stay tuned! More drama tomorrow :(

kiko · February 25, 2020, 10:02:46 PM

On the little data monitor , if you hold both the arrows down at the same time you can see the engine codes. If it has a yellow light you have an active engine code. Red light is a shut down engine code. Some time you have to have pressure on that shaft and steer it or slightly move machine to make it cog. I have seen the exact situation and damage you are thinking it is. So there are not syncros but slightly beveled mesh gears . If it spun it can roll up small metal and keep it from engaging. I have had success with this issue before by chocking the tractor and removing the drive lines , center slip and rear, so the gear box can be turned manually so you can feel when it is trying to cog and lightly and patiently tap the shift lever to knock the burs off. The shift fork held to shift rod with a roll pin. Problem is I can't remember if method is for the high or the low side. Any way if it does not work you already got the drive lines out. Often when these gear boxes come out , there is spline damage between the hydrostatic motor and the gearbox input shaft (unrelated to your issue)

kiko · February 25, 2020, 10:14:24 PM

And also when all is well you would not have to hold it low, it has detents. Did you say you had a parts book?

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 10:16:08 PM

I could see that working to straighten out light damage to the gears. Since the drivelines have to come off to remove the thing, it would be a simple matter to try it. Seems like it would work on both hi and lo range. Just a little "technical tapping". One of those $100 dollar hammer jobs. A buck for hitting it, $99 for knowing where and how hard. It would be a great thing if I didn't have to pull it. On that gearbox, are those oil lines simply passages for hydraulic pressure to the transmission? If I do end up pulling it, looks like there is potential to fill the belly pan with oil. I'll have caps and plugs for the JIC fittings, but nothing for any flanged connections. I'm seeing a lot of oil loss and a mess.

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 10:17:16 PM

No, I didn't order the parts book. Just the owner/operator book. It hasn't arrived yet. Thursday I think.

kiko · February 25, 2020, 10:52:38 PM

I may have parts diagram for that transmission. There are no hoses going to the gear box . The gear box is it's own sump. The drive motor is what the hoses are attached to. It needs to be removed before removing the gearbox. The drive motor is a Sauer Danfoss .

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 11:10:33 PM

I'd love to have a copy of that. It's a Sauer Danfoss 5164308. I haven't found a exploded view online.

Edit:That was wrong. That make/number is the main hydraulic drive motor, not the transmission.

Skeans1 · February 25, 2020, 11:24:52 PM

Yelloc makes a push in plug that works on flange fittings or into the motors, another option is they make flange plates and plugs either code 61 or 62 from memory.

Tony Wells · February 25, 2020, 11:42:45 PM

Actually, might have some of those now that you mention it. There's an entire different building we were using as a repair shop. I need to go dig around. Axxion probably has all the plates and plugs for this. They're local.

kiko · February 26, 2020, 12:12:59 AM

These machines came in so many variation as far as hosing goes. On some they had flange fittings that we're just adapters that had flange on one side and male oring face seal on the other. Some of the small hoses on the drive motor just go to a remote pressure check.

Tony Wells · February 26, 2020, 12:26:19 AM

Seen a lot of that on McCloskey screens. Seems they built with what they could get. I usually make a big mess trying to catch the oil while scrounging in my bucket of plugs and caps.

kiko · February 26, 2020, 08:51:44 AM

I don't have any books on a 670. The pictures are from a Hydro Ax 511ex. What you have is about the same, maybe just updated. Notice the detent balls and springs are made into the output inshaft not the shift rod

And drive motor

Tony Wells · February 26, 2020, 10:55:00 AM

So basically, we are talking about the parts along shaft #10. large gear #8 on one end and outer race #20 on the other. With the suspect parts chiefly #9 and #13. As it appears to me anyway. Deeper than I had hoped. If I can manage it, I'll rock it and see it I can get it to engage today.

Thanks for the illustrations. That helps.

kiko · February 26, 2020, 02:08:42 PM

Shift collar 9 would be meshed with gear 8 when in low.

Tony Wells · February 26, 2020, 05:48:59 PM

No success trying to rock it and get it to even begin to engage. So...it is set for surgery now to remove the transmission. I'm not physically up to the task, but I have qualified help to extract it. I'll take it back to my own shop and see what is keeping it from ticking like a Swiss watch. Bearings are not likely to be a problem, looking at it from underneath I suspect it will be a good time to replace the seals on the outputs, and anything inside I'll have to straighten, weld up and remachine, or if necessary, make a new part. It may be that parts are available, but I'm under a time constraint so if the lead time is unbearable, I'll have to make new parts if they are that bad. My hunch is that, since it does drive in high gear (although "jerky" feeling probably from improper engagement), something is keeping low gear from moving into proper position. That I should be able to remedy. I've asked that the guys rush it, and I can work on it as soon as they get it out.

It would appear to me that the drive motor must be removed, and the U-joints can be separated, then the transmission is simply sitting on tabs on each side and a bracket across the top. I don't see how it could be dropped out the bottom, so the plan is to lift it out. If necessary, I can lay the cab over a bit more and get a vertical lift with our overhead system, or possibly just use a cherry-picker engine lift.

Your thoughts and suggestions?