How much Face Cut Angle Can You Get Away With?

weimedog · May 20, 2024, 09:29:10 AM

While the Humboldt vs. Conventional discussion can take off into the weeds, how about a subset of that discussion? Face cut angles? In soft wood or more brittle species, a shallow cut angle works pretty well as typically as soon as the face closes the hinge simply breaks. Out here in Hardwood that same situation results in fiber pull.

SO the geometry has to be modified as fiber pull is a way to reduce the money on the landing. Another nuance is as the tree begins it's trip to the ground, it "crushes" the hinge at some level as the entire weight of the tree is now on and bending a much smaller x-section of wood, this crushes and helps promote the hinge to break. I've done literally 100's of close up video on different species to document this. SOME better video than others. Some made the channel to discussion reasons most have not. My (selfish ) research on the subject the goal. Here is one of the more recent ones. Second tree actually is very useful to watch.

Did another on the location of the back cut & resultant high wood or not on pulls.
This from the winter job

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se4-Jk9Q-tU

doc henderson · May 20, 2024, 10:32:24 AM

I was cutting a big elm alongside the house and wanted to control the direction. stopped cutting when it began to move, so the hinge was wider. It fell to a 45-degree angle from where it started and stopped. just sat there with the notch closed. had to cut a bit more of the hinge.

Nealm66 · May 20, 2024, 05:18:53 PM

Best to make a wide smile around here or your going to be dealing with a chair

WhitePineJunky · May 20, 2024, 05:27:12 PM

I more focus on the hinge thickness, bore cutting or chasing/cutting the hinge as the tree falls works best for me

You can bore into the middle of the notch too, roughly thickness of desired hinge

Nealm66 · May 20, 2024, 06:08:41 PM

If you're topping a tree in half and let's say you have a line pulling it off it's lean, you really need to be aware of what actually keeps a tree from barber chairing. A bore cut, face depth and trying to keep up with the back cut isn't 100%going to do the trick and when your belted off 40-60' in the air there's no place to run. I've brought this up before and got a lot of pushback but just be aware that if you're on steep ground or brush and no place to get away from a chair you might want to cut the side straps because that's what will keep a tree from chairing

Nealm66 · May 20, 2024, 07:18:10 PM

Sorry if I come across rough but just want to make sure this is made aware. Coming in lower or higher on one side or the other on the back cut can create a difference in pull of the hinge wood. Below the undercut will usually create more pull/strength. Above doesn't seem to change much from even but can create a lip for pushing through other trees so the butt doesn't slip off and come backwards. Definitely necessary if your topping through other trees.

doc henderson · May 20, 2024, 10:39:46 PM

Nealm, can you explain it in more detail and not using terms that need to be understood to realize what you are trying to teach. side strap (I assume I know what you mean, but not sure)? Bore cut through the face cut to the back or parallel and behind the face cut leaving a hinge with a trigger in the back?

Skeans1 · May 20, 2024, 10:55:17 PM

@doc henderson
Side straps are the corners of your hinge if you clip those and leave the centers it helps lesson the amount of barber chair that's possible, even back boring with a strap can still cause a chair in the right situtations take a Red Alder.

@Nealm66
Nothing worse then sitting down in a hole cutting something on steep ground having to pop your head out to check directions knowing you have no where to go because you have to sit on the stump that long well sawing away to keep ahead of the chair and pull. Some of the seconds that are pushing 120+ age wise are getting the old growth characteristics with hardness that have been in tight stands with lots of height 250' range stuff like that it's deep and steep or a traditional Humboldt if the occasion requires it, nothing worse going from a 6 40' log set to a 4 40' in that sort of timber.

Nealm66 · May 21, 2024, 08:45:35 AM

Ya, sorry if I come across bad. I've survived a lot of bad jobs and had some friends die and it bleeds out sometimes. I know it seems it's all different east west but there are some things that will be universal and I'm just trying to keep someone from getting hurt. Definitely for the most part a guy can get away with different styles but if the hair on the back of your neck is sticking out because you don't have a good escape route and your really afraid of a barber chair, cut in on both sides before you start the back cut. Someone on here called it a box cut I think. It's essentially making a bucking cut and as long as you've cut the sides in deep enough and connected the cuts, it works to keep from barber chairing. @Skeans1 , I'm in a patch right now that's about 100 and I don't see it living much longer. Root rot and white speck is horrible around here. Seein it in 35-45 year old timber even. Going to be a nasty fire hazard

doc henderson · May 21, 2024, 12:21:30 PM

Thanks, Skeans. You have been a great FF friend and put up with a slightly more than hobby logger from Kansas. that makes sense.
Nealm, I do not think you are coming off bad. you may occ. hear my ED humor come through and I occasionally offend a few. My thought is you can talk it over with your peers (using known to you language), and the rest of us learn nothing. Part of this forum is to help those of us without the experience and no mentors to learn from. thanks for the additional explanation, Gents (no offense intended).

doc henderson · May 21, 2024, 01:45:08 PM

to be clear, I did not think your or my language was offensive, but possibly being accused of being gentlemen might be.

thecfarm · May 21, 2024, 06:06:31 PM

My Father always and I mean always cut in on the sides.
So do I.

WhitePineJunky · May 21, 2024, 06:38:21 PM

Quote from: thecfarm on May 21, 2024, 06:06:31 PMMy Father always and I mean always cut in on the sides.
So do I.

Cut spruce any other way here usually will rip chunks/strips right out of the log

doc henderson · May 21, 2024, 06:49:05 PM

great information!

Nealm66 · May 21, 2024, 07:30:38 PM

I don't think it's necessary to cut in on both sides all the time. Just if you afraid of a barber chair. I definitely wouldn't cut your outside holding wood if you're trying to swing something. I was just reacting to the shallow undercut discussion.

WhitePineJunky · May 21, 2024, 07:35:45 PM

Quote from: Nealm66 on May 21, 2024, 07:30:38 PMI don't think it's necessary to cut in on both sides all the time. Just if you afraid of a barber chair. I definitely wouldn't cut your outside holding wood if you're trying to swing something. I was just reacting to the shallow undercut discussion.

Rarely afraid of barber chair on spruce but I'd you don't cut the side straps you damage the log

Larry · May 21, 2024, 09:23:28 PM

In the mid west hardwoods I cut, walnut likes to chair and splinter pull more than most of the other species. I put in a open face notch and its not very deep. My notch will never close until the tree is on the ground. I try to keep most of it in the stump flare so the log has a square butt. I keep my hinge pretty thin and sometimes give it support with a wedge on each side. On walnut I always cut what you guys are calling strap wood. I call it cutting ears. I'll sometimes bore out the center of the hinge also. In walnut I've learned sloppy felling costs serious money.