How do I darken Q-sawn oak rays without using stain?

WDH · April 23, 2018, 08:00:28 PM

No Sir, still a mystery to me.

Don P · April 23, 2018, 08:26:20 PM

I've seen micrographs of bluestain hyphae running in the rays, don't know if it is something along those lines or not.

Magicman · April 24, 2018, 08:36:57 AM

Quote from: WDH on April 23, 2018, 08:00:28 PMNo Sir, still a mystery to me.

I see it fairly often, just never gave it much thought until now. I'll be sawing Post Oak today so I wonder what it will look like.

Brad_bb · May 12, 2018, 10:29:25 PM

So I built my tent, got the proper ammonia respirator, swim goggles, and chemical gloves. I got a Pyrex glass pie pan at good will for the ammonia.
Here's the tent and two layers of 3 mil plastic to protect the concrete.

Here are the first samples I did. The first two are Ash and there is virtually no change in the ash even after 24 hour fuming. Next is 4 hr, then 8hr, then the next 3 are 24 hours, and finally at the end is the control that did not get any fuming(piece with the 45 degree cut on it).
There is a minor difference between 4 and 8 hours, but not much. 24 hour samples are slightly darker than the 8hr. I then took two of the 24 hour samples and did them another 24 for a total of 28 hours. The difference was not terribly noticeable.

PA_Walnut · May 13, 2018, 03:22:30 AM

A common method with figured maple is to aniline dye it, then sand off the color, where is sticks into the deeper pours of the wood.

Brad_bb · May 13, 2018, 02:19:55 PM

I'll give you a little taste of why I got on this path of finishing. I'll have a full post on this in about a month.

tule peak timber · May 13, 2018, 03:12:06 PM

You might want to try EcoWoodTreatment, as it is cheap and easy. There are a number of "fumed products " out there- check out RubioMonocoat.Your next stop are dyes, water or solvent based. If you can find it Gilsonite in a solvent solution works well. I've also used steel wool and vinegar with so-so results.Rob

Brad_bb · May 13, 2018, 04:08:32 PM

Rob, as you can see from the pics, this fuming is working very well giving the white oak a rich brown color. Vinegar/steel wool/water turns oak black, not brown, but black. I've tried it a couple of times. That method works great on non coastal doug fir though. I did 2x6 T&G doug fir flooring with vinegar/steel wool/water. I'll check out those other things. Never hurts to have more techniques in your arsenal. Different techniques seem to work well on some woods and not others.
I'm an admirer of your work.

tule peak timber · May 13, 2018, 06:35:45 PM

Super , you hit the nail on the head-different woods react differently to the various techniques. Keep up the good work !

Crusarius · May 14, 2018, 04:25:54 PM

sure would love to see what that looks like with a clear poly on the 4 hour fumed pieces. I like that color alot. Could never find a stain that I liked to match that.

Brad_bb · May 14, 2018, 05:58:39 PM

Going to use 2 coats of General Finishes High Performance FLAT. You have to keep it mixed to get a consistent finish. It's What I've been using on all my barnwood trim. Will post in a new thread when everything is done.

PA_Walnut · May 14, 2018, 08:52:24 PM

I'm compelled to ask, why use toxic/dangerous chemicals which require suiting-up when water-based dyes are easier, safer, faster and more predictable? (and inexpensive?) ???

I'm kinda a purist, but dyes are excellent these days.

Brad_bb · May 14, 2018, 09:19:27 PM

Ammonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use. It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn.

It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce. This method is inexpensive as well. The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart. I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session. I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time. This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.

Don P · May 14, 2018, 09:42:30 PM

That is a nice look, I'd like to see a closer shot of a sample flat and QS board with some finish when you get to that point. We've been going rounds with a raven on trash day, ammonia seems to deter him, one more use for spent product :D

Brad_bb · May 14, 2018, 11:12:36 PM

AFter fuming for 24 hours there is still a little liquid left in the pan. I think it's just water and that the ammonia has all evaporated. I cannot confirm this as I am not going to take my respirator off and smell it.

PA_Walnut · May 15, 2018, 06:22:36 AM

Quote from: Brad_bb on May 14, 2018, 09:19:27 PMAmmonia is a natural chemical, though man makes it also for his use. It's speeding up the natural process by which barn wood darkens from the ammonia in animal urine from animals kept in the barn. It produces a coloring and effect on white oak that no stain can produce. This method is inexpensive as well. The ammonia I bought was $26 plus shipping for the quart. I use about 3/4 cup for each fuming session. I could have bought it for about the same price for a gallon, but I didn't want to store unused product for a long amount of time. This should get me through this project and for the next project I'll buy more.

In the past, I used potassium dichromate to "age" mahogany, but determined that the risk/reward ratio wasn't for me. I'm continually amazed and happy with water-based dyes that I can formulate to do exactly what I want. With curly maple, all of the stock colors and stains just didn't get it. I have my own formula of dyes for maple now, that I like a lot. (see pic below).

Now I'm excited, since I have 5 SUPER curly logs on deck, awaiting sawing and a trip to my private stash! 8)

Good luck with your project...I have a bunch of quarter sawn white oak that I'm drying to put in my cabin project. I'm interested in seeing your results. Be careful and safe!

scsmith42 · May 16, 2018, 07:05:04 AM

Brad, if you want to experiment a little more, I can send you a few oz of 49%. Just say the word.

Scott

WDH · May 16, 2018, 07:18:58 AM

PA, please tell me how to get that special maple dye.

Brad_bb · May 17, 2018, 05:26:28 PM

I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster. I don't think it will make it any darker will it? FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos. The sample pic is pretty accurate though. Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming? I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome. Very nice material indeed.

shinnlinger · May 17, 2018, 09:32:07 PM

If you want to turn oak jet black, drop some steel wool in white vinegar and wait a day or two. Then rub it on the oak and it will turn black before your eyes.

shinnlinger · May 17, 2018, 09:42:00 PM

So not a great photo, but the counter on the right is simply white vinegar and steel wool on oak that I put in my wife's coffee shop.

scsmith42 · May 18, 2018, 09:28:33 PM

Quote from: Brad_bb on May 17, 2018, 05:26:28 PM
I don't understand Scott, higher concentration will just make it happen faster. I don't think it will make it any darker will it? FYI,The lighting in those pics plays games with the color rendering in the photos. The sample pic is pretty accurate though. Also, I wasn't aware you were doing any ammonia fuming? I will make a new post when they are installed and I get some good pics with proper lighting. They look awesome. Very nice material indeed.

Brad, when I've fumed in the past the 49% was both faster as well as darker in terms of the end result. Some of the boards were a very dark brown.

Is this the material that you got from me or something different?

biggbob · June 15, 2018, 07:58:53 AM

I have used water base dyes from W d Lockwood for years. Great company to work with. Have all the colors you could want. The metal complex are the best.