Wages

[tj240]

i worked 10 years for one local logger andd got paid 100 a day cutting and skiidding, next job 15 per hr for 4 years cuuting and skidding for one year, then in the loader delimbing and slashing for 2,460 grapples. next job 5 years ,16 per hr, company truck, plus 30 a day for saw usage paid to me, i supplied gas oil bars chains. then the next job for 7 years at with the same pay and company truck plus one week vacation paid with 5 paid holidays. the money paid depends on where you live and how good you are at the job. in the area i live that is decent money. and i love what i do. make more now tho, and still love what i do. log on fellas

[BargeMonkey]

BargeMonkey, sounds like a good deal, if you're in witness protection. :D

:D  funny you say that because we had one we would swear was. "Mysteriously" went from working in nightclubs in brooklyn to a boat towing stuff all over the pacific... yeah uh huh.

Tip, if he offers you a ride somewhere and then opens the trunk don't get in!

We had a body floating in Erie Basin Brooklyn monday when I went back to work, about 100ft from my car. Handcuffed, shackled, beaten, then drowned. I think someone wanted this guy done. NYC is about to break the record this year for "floaters", biggest problem we get is if we are trying to go north when someone jumps off a bridge, then its a traffic jam till they find the body.

[coxy]

there has been some weeks I worked for way less then that and some weeks i worked for no pay at all  ;D i am thinking  that's what I get for wanting to be the boss :D :D

[Corley5]

there has been some weeks I worked for way less then that and some weeks i worked for no pay at all  ;D i am thinking  that's what I get for wanting to be the boss :D :D

Yup  ;D    More than once I've paid employees more than myself.

[Ed_K]

x2 on that.

[redprospector]

When I started working in the log woods, I think minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. I went to work for a mill on the "woods crew" with an offer of $5.00 an hour bumping knots on the landing, my first check was for $8.00 an hour. So I felt good that at least they saw the effort I was making. I was on the landing for about 2 months and got moved into a falling job. That paid $13.56 per thousand board feet of logs cut. I provided my saws and supplies, transportation, insurance and everything else. It took a while, but I learned to cut 8 to 12,000 bd. ft. a day (limbed, and bucked to length) of pecker poles, and cut to lead at that. Skidder drivers, and Cat skinners got .75 a stick for wood put in the deck ready to be loaded. All they had to bring to work was their lunch.
We took great pride in the number of trees we could fall in lead and work up in a days time. My experience as the one doing the hiring now is that most people just don't have a taste for working that hard anymore, and very few take that kind of pride in their work.
Paying fallers, and skidder drivers by the hour seems counter productive in my opinion. If they have a "bad day" it doesn't affect their pay check, if they have a really productive day, well, that doesn't affect their pay check either.
If you can't tell, I'm an advocate of piece work. Most don't like it, but if you have a crew that understands how it works, is willing to do what it takes, and takes pride in what they do, you will have a crew that will out perform any hourly crew.

[timberlinetree]

I'm all for the harder you work the more you make. Not shure how volume vs wage works. Do you have to pay the difference if the volume workers pay falls below min wage? No mater what it doese seem like inflation is getting out of control! Almost 40k for a new pickup! Don't think I'll ever have one.  >:(

[36 coupe]

Now you know why our jobs have gone to China.Wait til you get on SS and have to pay for products and services made by people making 25 bucks an hour.In the early 60s 2.00 was a good wage.I remember buying a pair of work shoes for 5.00 and dungarees for 2.00 from MW.About a dollar for postage.Banks are paying 1/10 of one percent on savings in effect stealing from us and building hugh new bank buildings.

[SliverPicker]

Its all pretty simple, really.  When the government deficit spends ($16 TRILLION and counting) all that created-out-of-thin-air money dilutes the money supply so each dollar is worth less than it was before.  Our buying power decreases.

Mid-grade hamburger here is $6.49 per pound with 8.6% tax thrown on top.  How did this happen? 

It happens because we the citizens don't demand that it stop. 

Deficit spending is a massive tax on everyone.  Most people don't even know the mechanism behind this tax.

[Ianab]

An issue with paying just by volume, you put the incentive on production over safety. People WILL do unsafe things if it makes more $$, and if working safe COSTS them $$, you see the problem?

Then they get themselves killed, and OSH shuts you down.

There is a case going through the courts here where a logger has been charged with manslaughter, for operating a mechanised harvester with ground crew close by, and a tree fell on one of the workers. Why would they be doing that? More production.

[RunningRoot]

I cant find any help around here. Wage rate doesn't make a difference. The last guy I tried to work was a joke. I was giving him $165.00 a day as a cutter ( hand felling ), he had no experience prior to me training him as well.
I found that after 2 weeks of him not producing timber in a timely manner he was sitting down every time I would head down the hill with a hitch behind the skidder/dozer and then he would get back up and start working when he heard me coming back up the hill. I parked the dozer at the landing and walked up 4 times and watched him do this before I decided he wasn't just resting and I then let him go.

Nobody wants to work anymore. Kids these days know nothing of hard work it seems. I mean, I know there are some out there that are good hard workers so if you are one of them please do not take offense to this statement.
I have become so frustrated with the fact I can find no help at any rate that I am no longer looking. I can produce more timber on a weekly basis and profit more by myself. There are no experienced fellers around. Any good fellers are now retired and the younger generation wants nothing to do with logging it seems. I am 27 years old and have held a manual labor job all my life, from the age of 14, and I feel like a loan wolf around here. Everyone around here my age wants to either work behind a desk or at Wendys or MacDonalds. I don't understand it.

Sorry if I got sidetracked or off topic with my post. Correct me and I will work on it in the future.

[barbender]

A good timber faller is a skilled professional, sadly that level of skill pays way more in other fields. The same goes for most other logging positions. I could fire up my union operators card and go to work for half again as much money tomorrow, but I like what I'm doing and it works well for my family life right now- running a forwarder provides me a great deal of flexibility for getting off early to go to my kid's events and such. In construction, the foreman told me what time to be there, and what time to go home (7:00, 8:00, 11:00 >:() I really hated not knowing what time I got to go home. Now I get to decide ;D

[redprospector]

An issue with paying just by volume, you put the incentive on production over safety. People WILL do unsafe things if it makes more $$, and if working safe COSTS them $$, you see the problem?

Then they get themselves killed, and OSH shuts you down.

There is a case going through the courts here where a logger has been charged with manslaughter, for operating a mechanised harvester with ground crew close by, and a tree fell on one of the workers. Why would they be doing that? More production.

As Ron White once said; "You can't fix stupid".
I think that little saying goes with the example you put forth. If a faller, or machine operator is stupid enough to put themselves or others in danger then they should be told to hit the road.
I had a guy come to work as a skidder operator. The job paid by the acre, and he went rip roaring without regard to leave trees or anything else. I kept everyone clear while I watched him work for a few hours, I stopped him for a little talk, he went right back to what he had been doing so I stopped him again and told him I wouldn't be needing someone of his obvious skills (my skidder couldn't take it). My next skidder operator understood that if the skidder was broken...he made nothing, and was very conscientious of others he worked with and around. If memory serves, he averaged over $19 an hour, while others running skidder for the competition were making around $12. I was happy, and he was ecstatic. He worked with me until the job was over, and work ran out. I wish he was still around, but guy's like that don't go unemployed long.

but if you have a crew that understands how it works, is willing to do what it takes, and takes pride in what they do, you will have a crew that will out perform any hourly crew.

This is what I said, and I still stand behind it. It is up to the employer, or supervisor to make sure the crew is working safely, and get rid of those who just can't understand the concept of piece work.
If you're not working, you're not making anything. If the company you're working for is forced out of business, you sure aren't making any money.
People talk about the "greedy, fat cat business owners", but piece work is as close as anyone working for someone else will come to a partnership. Actually it's like being a contractor.

I realize that I am a dinosaur, and it's painfully obvious that I'm from the "old school". But when people are held responsible, this concept still works. If people aren't held responsible then we have to pay the guy that's worth $3 an hour $12 an hour, but at the same time we have to cut the guy that's worth $20 an hour down to $12 so we can afford to pay the $3 guy $12.

In a less confusing arrangement of words, the good worker is paying the wages of the sorry worker, and carrying him on his back through life.  :D

[gologit]

Well said.

[Maine logger88]

X2!

[barbender]

X3, when I hauled wood everything was paid by the load (production). I know some would be idiots to make more, but they would be idiots by the hour, too :

[lopet]

The way i look at it  is that everybody wants a job but nobody wants to work.  I think it's a bit of a trendy thing that physical work is out and making money behind a desk  or online is in.   It's pretty sad,  those kids don't realize they don't get the physical activities they should have at that age.  They would save the money going to the gym and get a daily workout with a much healthier live style.      But reality is different.

All you younger fellas on this board you have all me respect specially when times are tough.

[M_S_S]

I got a young guy (24) that works for me in the wood. Hard worker, had to train him but is a fast learner and not a slacker. Lol he kinda takes care of the old man.  I pay him weekly and he keeps track of his time, honest to a fault lol. Lol I make enough in the wood to afford him, think he is doing better than me, but that's ok. He needs work and I am just glad that I can provide it for him. I think I am blessed that I met him. ED

[thecfarm]

And I bet he is glad he met you too.

[Small Slick]

I wonder if the generations are getting worse and worse when it comes to work ethic. I'm 37 and consider myself in the middle. I remember in the 90's when gen x was considered to be a really bad generation. My dad talks with disgust about the baby boomers who got everything handed to them because their parents had lived through the depression and been through the wars. So they enjoyed prosperity and economic growth while trying to give their kids a childhood they didn't have. Possibly causing the hippie movement and such.

Now today I'm trying to hire "good" help; show up on time every day, work hard when you are there, pay attention to the details, consider what is good for the company, try to be and improve on your value to the company and so on. Not only trying to find those guys but also groom the ones I do have.

It's almost impossible. I have a great crew of guys(we are electricians) but it's still a struggle to improve as a company. They all want to work 40 no more or less they scream bloody murder if we work over or less. I have offered apprenticeships to them and they don't take them. It's too far to drive or the tuition is too much or some other excuse. I paid for my education myself and did not get paid to sit in class, unlike the apprenticeship.

I don't know what it is about the job seekers of today but it's really tough to find good guys at a reasonable wage at any level of skill. Guys just want to squeeze their employer for all they can and put out as little effort as possible.

It's tough as a business owner to know what to do. The future for the skilled trades looks pretty grim.

John

[BargeMonkey]

 :D  everyone is saying the same thing, from skilled trades to even just a basic laborer the people arent out there. We get by with as little help as we have to for a reason. Im working on opening up a gas station / country store locally and im having stomach pain thinking about 3-5 more people on the books, bookkeeper for another day, and unfortunately undocumented help, 15 packed in a single wide isnt the solution.  :D

[Philbo]

This is an interesting thread.  I think about wages/$$ in the woods quite a bit.  I'm 27, have and support a young family and have been working in the woods for nearly a year now.  It's not the only thing I do to make money, but I spend most of my "working" time doing it.  I work with 1 guy who has slowly built his company over the last 5+ years, basically a 1 or 2 man show in some form or another the whole time.  This has its own real logistical and production challenges, but is also a blessing as there is less ways to split the $.  I work hard at whatever my task happens to be.  I aim to learn thoroughly to where I can handle the job on my own (if possible) and make quick decisions as needed.  I try to be efficient and organized whenever possible.  I try to show up on time everyday, though having 2 small kids at home can throw you behind in the morning sometimes.  I think of myself as a partner in the company interests and try and work accordingly.  I also try and hone my knowledge of timber and recount my personal experiences to learn from mistakes.

We do a variety of things to make money in the woods/forestry. Some days I make close to $30/hr.  Others I'm lucky to make $8/hr.   The $$ can be very task dependent, but I'd say an overall average of $12-15/hr isn't unrealistic.  This is also a pretty economically isolated/seasonal economy, small population, fairly rural area where it's challenging to find a decent wage job making much more than $10-12/hr.

I'll say that plenty of days I wish that I made more money and other days/weeks I am happy with what I'm making.  The biggest thing is the inconsistency of it due to "uncontrollable" circumstances...weather, breakdowns (can be prevented to a point, but you'll always have something eventually), and at times lack of organization beyond my control.

I'll end by saying that I wouldn't be out in the woods every week bustin' my *** and doing inherently dangerous work if I didn't have a passion for it and love being in the woods.  There's something you get from working outside and in the woods that you can't quantify in dollars, though there are certainly better and safer ways to work so that you can continue to work in the woods from a sustainable perspective (financially and safely.) I think that's one element that has been largely lost in my generation is an appreciation for working outdoors and what it can give to you.  The internet and automated technology have really changed things and opened up opportunities for folks as far as work goes.  It seems like more and more people would rather make $ in more sedentary ways, which isn't inherently bad, but if everybody keeps moving in that direction then who's gonna be left to work the remaining manual labor jobs that still need to be done?

Good thread.

[Ianab]

Good post Philbo. You understand that that for your boss to pay you ~$30 an hour, you need to be making him ~$60. Now in a true "employee" situation you get paid a set wage. Say it's $20 an hour, you still need to be earning ~$40. Working on a pay for production basis makes you more of a contractor or partner, rather than a traditional employee. More risk (the $8 weeks) but more reward (the $30 weeks)

It also points out that there ARE young guys that are prepared to work. But most of them have decent jobs already. Or have moved to a place where they can get a good paying job, driving trucks or welding etc. Plenty of jobs in those fields if you are prepared to chase it.

So the ones that turn up to a low paying job are pretty much the bottom of the heap. You might get lucky and find a youngster that's looking to get a start. But then you need to up their pay to keep them. Most of the good ones already have a decent job. The rates in the Original Post wouldn't even get your attention right?

[Philbo]

The rates in the OP seem a bit low, even for my area...which is quite close to Wise Co, VA.  I think it's even more isolated economically and culturally there than where I live and work.  Been there a couple times and strip mining for coal and any jobs that it creates are a huge part of that economy. 

As several others have said in this thread, those wages (and the fact that they are wages per hour instead of production based) aren't likely to attract the anyone very experienced or long-term, in my opinion.  If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

And yes, Ianab, the $30/hr jobs are jobs that are quoted at $60-65/hr and expenses come off the top.  Some other jobs are production based and get held up due to weather/whatever or are slower than I'd like. 

Before doing this I worked as a salaried middle manager in retail industry and barely made $15/hr after 3+ yrs in the position and exceeding sales goals/profitability goals....and I hated it after a while.  Always inside, granted, always getting paid as long as I made it there (even in bad weather), but it's like you said: no risk, no reward.

[Kodiakmac]

Wow!!! It's hard to keep a good skidder guy here paying 27 bucks an hour

I can't afford to hire skidder jockeys or fallers.  I'd either have to run the considerable risk of paying them under the table or put up with the paperwork and costs of the many bureaucracies that suck away any profit if you try to do things above board.  Unemployment Insurance; Workmen's Compensation; WHMIS; CPP; and the soon-to-arrive Ontario Liberal government's mandatory pension plan contributions. 

In any event, it's almost impossible to find any young guys around here who even know how to start and use a chainsaw.  Maybe Echo and Stihl should think about installing swipe-screens.  ;D

And now-a-days it seems like every second dink that gets hired and then fired trots off with some GoPro footage to the Ministry of Labour to make an employer's life even more miserable.