Wages

[32vld]

If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

I have a small landscape business. Usually work by myself. Though a complaint that many landscape business owners is that they can not find good help.

Yet they themselves would not do the job they want their employees to do for the money they are willing to pay their own employees.

Poverty level $11,670 for 1, $23,850 family of 4. Average use income $50,000. The only way a family of 1 can live on $11,000 is if he lived in his car.

52 weeks * 40 hr = 2080 hr

$23,850/2080 = $11.47 hr

People do not aspire to make enough to just make the cutoff for the US poverty level.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. Because when I use that mower it has to make enough money to cover my salary, business costs, and enough money to buy another mower when that new mower wears out and needs to be replaced.

If that mower does not make enough money to replace itself when doing work over the course of it's life then to use it is foolish because once that mower dies I am out of business.

[SliverPicker]

Philbo,

Excellent, thoughtful posts.

Cheers!

In my own case at $15.00 per hour:

$31,200 gross income
-8,869.92 mortgage/housing (real number)
-7,488.00 state and federal income taxes (approx.)
-11,670.00 "Laughable Care Act" (real number including deductible of $6,300.00)

=3,172.08 ($264.34 per month) to pay for food, FUEL, utilities, house maintenance, vehicle maintenance, HEAT, sales tax of 8.6%, etc. etc.

Is it any wonder people aren't motivated to work for $15/ hour?

(Locally the official poverty level for a single person is $32,500.00 per year)

$15 today buys the same as $18.83 bought in 2004. That's 20.34% less.  This is according to the government's calculation of inflation.  When those crooks calculate inflation THEY DON"T COUNT ENERGY (gasoline, diesel, propane, electricity etc. etc. etc.) or FOOD.  The real inflation is rate is about 50% higher than the "official" number. Also, dont' forget that inflation is a compounding function.

Inflation is a massive, intentional tax on everyone.



-

[luvmexfood]

It's been 5 days and I see the faller ad has been reposted. Didn't see the skidder operator ad. Did see where it said a 5-7 employee company. :P

[Kodiakmac]

If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. ..

True, true, and true.  But as more than one poster has noted, I used to pay by volume, not by the hour.  And I figure that if an old fart like myself could make 20 bucks an hour at the rates I would pay (if it wasn't for the red tape), then a young lad should be able to do that without breaking a sweat. 

But the problem is, I couldn't find a guy around here to agree to that unless he was already drawing welfare or unemployment insurance or a disability pension....and I've never hired one of those guys, and I never will.  They are the parasites who are cutting my throat on firewood sales.  My taxes are already giving them a basic hourly rate because they are drawing pogey or welfare or disability, and they are cutting firewood on the side and are able to under-cut me by $30 to 40 bucks a cord.

Every time I hear about this I turn the B******s in. 

[32vld]

If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. ..

True, true, and true.  But as more than one poster has noted, I used to pay by volume, not by the hour.  And I figure that if an old fart like myself could make 20 bucks an hour at the rates I would pay (if it wasn't for the red tape), then a young lad should be able to do that without breaking a sweat. 

But the problem is, I couldn't find a guy around here to agree to that unless he was already drawing welfare or unemployment insurance or a disability pension....and I've never hired one of those guys, and I never will.  They are the parasites who are cutting my throat on firewood sales.  My taxes are already giving them a basic hourly rate because they are drawing pogey or welfare or disability, and they are cutting firewood on the side and are able to under-cut me by $30 to 40 bucks a cord.

Every time I hear about this I turn the B******s in.

They can not see the long term effects their pricing has on them and the industry that they are working in. They can not see past the tank full of gas and 12 pack of beer they buy on the way home.

[barbender]

Down here, FWIW when I used to work seasonal highway construction, I was under the impression that my employer payed in my whole claim, due to a high UE rating from laying off the whole crew every fall. I never felt guilty for one red cent I drew from that account, and I had guys lined up wanting to put me to work in the fall. I would go haul wood, and claim it against my unemployment, but that was to keep a clear conscience toward God, not the state of MN. I knew a lot of guys that got paid cash, I sure didn't hold it against them. I didn't view them as parasites at all, these were guys that busted their butts for a living. I would have a completely different view if it was disability or welfare. I see guys that are out riding horseback all week and they are getting a disability check, that drives me nuts. Maybe my views appear in conflict, but unemoymenot is a tax paid in for every hour of work that I draw off of. No work= no unemployment. It's abused too, no doubt. I know of people that drew for about 3 years because of the extensions given after the recession, they were milking it for all it was worth.

[Philbo]

If I had 5+ yrs of timber cutting experience (which I don't) and knew that there was a glass ceiling of $15/hr on the best of days, it would be hard to find motivation from that for more than a short time, even if I seemingly had no other options.

I have a small landscape business. Usually work by myself. Though a complaint that many landscape business owners is that they can not find good help.

Yet they themselves would not do the job they want their employees to do for the money they are willing to pay their own employees.

Poverty level $11,670 for 1, $23,850 family of 4. Average use income $50,000. The only way a family of 1 can live on $11,000 is if he lived in his car.

52 weeks * 40 hr = 2080 hr

$23,850/2080 = $11.47 hr

People do not aspire to make enough to just make the cutoff for the US poverty level.

People that take on $11.47 an hour jobs are there because they have issues that keep them there. When an employer offers a salary of $11.47 hr all they are going to get is people with issues that have no potential.

Those that are young, have potential, willing to take on $11.47 hr jobs is because they know eventually that the will be moving on to better things. This is why the few good employees leave on their own.

Also for the good young people there are too many $10 hr jobs where one is not in the cold, heat, rain, snow, mosquitos, ticks, chiggers, but indoors climate control, stay clean and the work is easy.

Then many business owners complain their business/industry price structure can not afford to pay more. Yet they are the first ones to slash prices to get a job. Electricians, plumbers come in say this is that price, you balk, they turn around and walk out.

They can not see the connection that when they slash prices they are slashing their own economic health.

I bought a $4250 mower this spring. I turn down work before I will lower my prices. Because when I use that mower it has to make enough money to cover my salary, business costs, and enough money to buy another mower when that new mower wears out and needs to be replaced.

If that mower does not make enough money to replace itself when doing work over the course of it's life then to use it is foolish because once that mower dies I am out of business.

Gotta say I agree with all that.  You gotta be either a little bit crazy or very determined (or a little bit of both) to really want to work in the woods in certain places, with so many other easier options for similar $.

With your mower, it's just like anything else in a business like this that should be making you money.  If you can't make enough with it to replace itself during its expected life then why bother?  You know that you gotta have a line in the sand as far as a certain amount you've got to get or more before you even crank the truck and pull out of the driveway with your equip.

We are contemplating buying some type of loader/tractor/backhoe/skid (not sure) to use around our property to get some much needed heavy chores done.  To justify that I'd have to operate it a certain amount of hrs per month at a certain rate or above to pay for itself and make some extra profit for our family.  I enjoy operating machines. I'd love to do it and find the right niche for this local economy, but also have a good idea of how much $ it takes to not only operate a machine but to transport it on a trailer and keep up with everything in that realm to, so I'm a bit hesitant to take out a loan, which we'd have to do to get a decent machine.  On the other hand, I think I'd be crazy not to (because of the earning potential with a good customer base/word of mouth built up) and keep on treading water averaging $12-15 hr and working 40+ hr weeks and not seeing my kids and lady as much as I or they would like....decisions, decisions.

It can be a tough world and economy out there, but I believe that if you keep your head on and always look for opportunities when they present themselves then you at least have the chance to make something better for yourself.  Doesn't mean it will come easily, though. 

[redprospector]

Just remember guy's, working in the woods isn't really a job...it's a lifestyle.
It really doesn't matter to those of us who have chosen this lifestyle what it pays. We'll figure out how to make it work, that's part of the lifestyle.
I live in an area where a skidder driver only makes about $12 an hour. I choose not to work for that, so I work for myself in the industry.
If the challenge of making it work doesn't appeal to you, then you're probably better off finding something else to do for a living. I mean just in the day to day of running equipment (including a chainsaw) in the woods, you've generally got to figure out how to make it work, or go home.
To keep making a decent living in the woods you may have to do like I had to and diversify. When logging pretty much folded up around here, I eased over into thinning private property for fire prevention. I joke about being a glorified grounds keeper, or an old timber faller who was demoted to thinning contractor,  :D but I'm still in the woods making it work.
Everyone around here that thins the forest, or still logs, has a firewood yard or their own sawmill, because there is absolutely no market for logs. If you want to learn the art of "making it work" move to a place like this. If you can make it in the woods with no log market, you can "make it work" just about anywhere you choose to be.

It's a lifestyle!
If you're just looking for a job, you might try WallyWorld.

[lopet]

I totally agree with that redprospector. Working in the woods is not for everybody. I love it and I can make it work with selling  120 - 150 cord of firewood a year and I am not paying anything or very little for the trees. But I also farm and I love that too.
Some days i am glad I don't have to make a living with the wood thing and some days when commodities are down I ask myself why I am doing this. Yes you can call it  a lifestyle and i am blessed to be able doing two things I love with so far I didn't get rich, so I guess it can't be for the money.  

[jd540b]

My thoughts are...if you don't want to cut wood for $15/hr for someone else when all you have to do is be on time to work, then goto the bank, borrow $100,000, get some contracts and have at it...good luck!  There are many weeks as a logging contractor where you would be happy to clear $15/hr.
I have issues with the "entitlement" of today.

[Philbo]

I hear that, but there's different approaches to making money in the woods besides a $100k equipment loan.  We could certainly use some more equipment to help with efficiency (bigger sawmill, knuckle-boom, bigger truck for moving logs) but there's still money to be made on the smaller scale if you have enough diversified services. 

I realize that this model doesn't work for most folks, but it certainly can be done.  We have a bit of a "unique" operation where we skid with either draft horses or a logging winch on back of tractor (depending on site) and are able to get to folks' timber that otherwise don't want it touched or the woods quite as impacted or is too steep for machines.   Gotta be creative sometimes!

[jd540b]

I was talking more for someone who is just hired help or only has themselves to offer.  If $15 an hr isn't enough-go buy a skidder, truck, saws, tools, insurance, pay for fuel, repairs etc-etc.  and go for it.
that's where I was going with it.

[BargeMonkey]

 100k gets you a decent skidder, a close to new truck and a few saws. Maybe the first little bit of fuel. I recently went to the bank looking for more equipment, the paperwork and drama borrowing money for forestry equipment is beyond belief. The problem with horses or farm tractors is people dont wanna wait, ive got 3 landowners on me like white on rice, "when can you start" & "why arent you done yet". I wish I came close to 15$ an hour clear money when I get done every week, but its always something. Just ordered 2 more boxes of hose wrap, 450.00, the insurance, the fuel bill. I dont wanna know how the big guys do it, alot of sleepless nights.

[lopet]

I am pretty sure I am not gonna clear $ 15 per hour as a owner operator but that doesn't matter. Most important thing is I get my bills paid and my monthly payments made and still have some money left to spend ( some times not  ;D ). Its been said earlier,being the boss has its  price , you're chasing jobs  do book work on a Sunday repair at nights etc.
But I wouldn't wonna cut and skid wood for somebody else for $15 per hour. That's just two different pair of shoes.
Just my two cents.

[Corley5]

I am pretty sure I am not gonna clear $ 15 per hour as a owner operator but that doesn't matter. But I wouldn't wonna cut and skid wood for somebody else for $15 per hour. That's just two different pair of shoes.

 

[Firewoodjoe]

Well I make $18 and get a very generous Christmas bounous and my bosses (father son) have a lot nicer stuff then I have. And they really only have one house hold income. My wife is a RN that puts my wadge to a shame. And I still drive a $1200 beater. I also have logged my self and I run my firewood business so I understand both sides

[Dave Shepard]

I fill in driving silage truck a few times a year. I don't make much, but when the wheel falls off the $400k chopper, it's not my problem, when it catches on fire, it's not my problem. When it rains, and there's five trucks waiting, it's not my problem. I'm sympathetic, but it's not my problem. ;) I go home and cut firewood, or run my mill, and come back when everything is fixed.

[customsawyer]

Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.

[Firewoodjoe]

 :D :D :Dwell said!

[Peter Drouin]

Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.

  Me too  :D :D :D :D :D

[goose63]

Doesn't matter what it don't pay, I am to hard headed to work for anyone else.

Me too smiley_argue01

[Maine logger88]

Me 4

[timberlinetree]

Me 5 but as I get older and the house gets emptier and running a business keeps getting harder someday I might be punching a clock. Maybe?

[David-L]

Being self employed has been one of the most rewarding things I can say I have done. It's not for everyone but has many advantages over punching a clock IMO. I have also worked for some great bosses and then some not so great. At this point in my life I am getting pretty set in my ways if you know what I mean. Probably best if I stay my own boss. Can't wait for deer season vacation which is right around the corner   
.

                                                     David l

[BradMarks]

C - section, 8/2/14, $29,000. Healthy granddaughter we have now!