Finding saw logs... any pointers?

[Cornerstone]

My home built sawmill will be ready to start sawin' real soon. I have my eye on several dead trees on my 19 acres, but I bet most of them are rotted beyond usefulness. I won't want to take out many of my own living big trees, since, well you know why. Where I live in Texas (Dallas/Ft. Worth area) there are not plentiful amounts of big straight tall trees. I'm willing to drive to east Texas, where there are those kinds of trees, buy them and carry them home on the trailer. 

I have heard of a couple of methods to start making contacts for saw logs and figured I'd share them here and ask what you others are doing to source logs.

The first method is to contact all the local tree service companies and spread the word that I will pick up anything decent they were planning on getting rid of, straight from the customers location. The thought is to save them the work and expense of cutting them up and hauling them off.

The second idea is to search Marketplace and Craigslist for free wood, and even post ads that offer to remove select trees at no cost to them, in exchange for keeping the logs. 

Obviously the trees that are from an urban source will be prone to blade destroying nails and such, so I'm hoping to make connections on a more professional level. I'd like to find loggers who would sell to an individual, I may be able to buy upwards of a truckload depending on the cost. This is all new to me if you cant tell by now, so any tips are appreciated! 


I took this picture a few weeks ago when I took a 3 hour trip to east Texas and visited Runquist Sawmill. The owner, Troy, was a super nice guy who sold me a trailer load of mixed varieties. 

[WV Sawmiller]

   Congrats on the new mill and good luck. What are you plans for the lumber? Personal use or sale?

   I would be very careful about the "Free Wood" as it is never free. If someone has a woodlot they want cleared it may work but anything close to houses, buildings, utility lines, fences, etc, should be left to the arborists. They are equipped and insured for that kind of work and I'd bet you don't have that kind of liability insurance. For them it is not if they will damage something but how often and how expensive. You are going to find many shysters who have dangerous trees and want to use you to remove them rather than paying arborists. Most have already checked and know what they will have to pay and think they are pulling the wool over an ignorant sawmiller getting him to cut, remove and clean up the area.

   I would contact the Texas Forestry dept for a list a loggers in the area and talk with them. Most probably won't be interested in dealing with a small hobbyist but some may be willing to sell especially if you can pick up at the landing and come with cash in hand and ready to pay decent prices on the spot. There will be a learning curve and you will no doubt pay your dues till you learn more about what to buy and what to avoid.

   Why not continue to buy from the sawmill like you last did?

[kantuckid]

KY has a Master Logger List which is posted online by county. Google shows me a similar list for Texas. In my area a few loggers do most of the cutting, others have certification and maybe are out of the work now or once did log. Farms and ranches may cut on their own land if legal there? Here, you can abuse your land at will. 

[Cornerstone]

  Congrats on the new mill and good luck. What are you plans for the lumber? Personal use or sale?

  I would be very careful about the "Free Wood" as it is never free. If someone has a woodlot they want cleared it may work but anything close to houses, buildings, utility lines, fences, etc, should be left to the arborists. They are equipped and insured for that kind of work and I'd bet you don't have that kind of liability insurance. For them it is not if they will damage something but how often and how expensive. You are going to find many shysters who have dangerous trees and want to use you to remove them rather than paying arborists. Most have already checked and know what they will have to pay and think they are pulling the wool over an ignorant sawmiller getting him to cut, remove and clean up the area.

  I would contact the Texas Forestry dept for a list a loggers in the area and talk with them. Most probably won't be interested in dealing with a small hobbyist but some may be willing to sell especially if you can pick up at the landing and come with cash in hand and ready to pay decent prices on the spot. There will be a learning curve and you will no doubt pay your dues till you learn more about what to buy and what to avoid.

  Why not continue to buy from the sawmill like you last did?

Thanks for your response! Yes... Thankfully, I can smell a bad deal a mile away most of the time, and you are correct, no liability insurance for that kind of work. I don't mind going back to buy from Troy, I'm just trying to find something perhaps a bit closer than a 6 hour round trip. Plus, I would expect him to make money selling them to me, since he had to take time and use his guys and equipment. If I can manage to buy direct from the guys who cut them down or haul them to the mills, I was hoping to pay less. This brings up a whole nuther question for a guy like me getting started. How much should I expect to pay for a quality log? Maybe you can give some guidance on that?  
I want to use the wood for both purposes. I need wood for several rental cabins I would like to build on my land to generate a retirement income. I also have several folks wanting me to be able to provide slabs and dimensional lumber as well. One of the first things to build will be a solar kiln.
Thanks again, I value your opinion.
Brian

[Cornerstone]

KY has a Master Logger List which is posted online by county. Google shows me a similar list for Texas. In my area a few loggers do most of the cutting, others have certification and maybe are out of the work now or once did log. Farms and ranches may cut on their own land if legal there? Here, you can abuse your land at will.

Thank you as well, I'll look into this right now.

[Ron Wenrich]

Look for a local independent logger who will treat you right.  Be careful, as some will bring in logs they can't sell anywhere else.  Be specific in the kind of logs you want.  The other mill may be willing to help you with pricing, since they are so far away.

I have worked with a mill that was dependent on urban logs that were "free".  You'll get logs that are too big to haul, too short to be useful, poor species selection, and assorted junk on the inside.  There were a few guys that would bring in good logs.  I'd say about 10-20% were good sawlogs. 

[Brad_bb]

The problem with tree services is that YOU are not reliable.  If they are doing a job tomorrow, they cannot count on you being available.  They make their money on tree work, not on logs, so they just need to get rid of the wood.  If that means cutting it up in 4-5 foot lengths that their grapple can handle, then that's what they'll do.  

When I started I tried contacting tree services, and that is exactly what I found out.  I can't come out to every job and remove the wood and they need to get done so they can move to the next job.  

Where it does work with tree services is when you have a location they can dump at.  In that case it's more difficult for them to keep longer lengths due to  grapple limitations. I ended up working with a firewood guy who had relationships with tree services who could dump at his place.  He did manage to get some of them to leave longer logs especially if they were good quality.  He would sell those to me and make more than firewood price without having to make firewood.

Being able to pick up logs yourself is a good thing.  That entails having more than just a trailer though.  you need a way to load them, as many time a property owner has no way to do it and the tree guys are done already.  Matt Cremona's log arch trailer looks like a great method.  Picking Up a Walnut Tree - Urban Logging - YouTube     
I would like to have one.  You don't need another piece of equipment in that case.  Otherwise you'd need to bring a skid steer or a rough terrain forklift with you on the trailer, and once loaded with logs, you'd have to go back for your machine.

[Ljohnsaw]

How much should I expect to pay for a quality log? Maybe you can give some guidance on that?

Everything is bigger in Texas so my prices might not compare.  It will depend on the species and size.  From one logger with a self-loader, I paid $350/1000.  IIRC, that was $1,750 for the truckload of Ponderosa.  Turned out more wood than scaled (5,000 bdft scale, ~5,400+ cut) so I think I figured it was around $325/1000.

Then I had this second guy selling cedar.  Scaled out at 4,700 bdft.  Had a LOT of metal in them and was charged somewhere around $3,800.  Won't be using him ever again.

[Cornerstone]

*Where it does work with tree services is when you have a location they can dump at. 


*Matt Cremona's log arch trailer looks like a great method.

* I'll be sure to mention that when I do make contact with them. I do have a place for them to dump and run so that may really help. 
* That same design log arch is also on my to do list. I like Matt and his channel for sure. He seems like he'd be a good friend to have.
Thank you Brad, I appreciate it.

[Cornerstone]

From one logger with a self-loader, I paid $350/1000.  IIRC, that was $1,750 for the truckload of Ponderosa.  Turned out more wood than scaled (5,000 bdft scale, ~5,400+ cut) so I think I figured it was around $325/1000.

Then I had this second guy selling cedar.  Scaled out at 4,700 bdft.  Had a LOT of metal in them and was charged somewhere around $3,800.  Won't be using him ever again.

Man I've got a lot to learn. 

First question... when you say the logger had a self loader, do you mean there was a way for him to unload the logs built into his truck? 

Second, you say $1750. for a truckload of Ponderosa. What size logs and truck would that be? I'm pretty much clueless on the whole boardfoot measuring system. Let's say you have a 24" diameter (on the small end) Ponderosa that measures out to 16 ft. long. How many bdft should a guy estimate from that log? Do the loggers usually have the same size trailers?  How many bdft would you estimate are in the 8 logs in the first picture in this thread? 

I gave $340. for my 16' utility trailer loaded with several species of hard and soft woods, which seemed like a reasonable deal to me. Most of them were under 8 ft. long though. I'm really looking forward to making my first cuts, but I need to make a few minor adjustments in the blade guides first.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Are you familiar with log rules? If not you need to look them up. They are a tool to estimate the amount of lumber you will be able to get from a log.

   I use the International 1/4" rule as my best estimate of lumber I will get from a log. Most lumberyards buy logs on the Doyle rule which tends to under estimate yield for more profit to them. 

   I keep a copy of the Int'l 1/4" log rule on the back of my business cards for convenience for me and my customers. 

[Ljohnsaw]

First question... when you say the logger had a self loader, do you mean there was a way for him to unload the logs built into his truck? Second, you say $1750. for a truckload of Ponderosa. What size logs and truck would that be?

Yes, the truck has a loading arm/grapple right behind his cab.  This was the first load of 33' logs from one guy.  These were a little pricey and skinny.  I think these were around 3,500-3,800 bdft.


 

And then he puts is tag trailer up on the bunks!

 This was the good wood I was talking about.  These are in the 30-38" diameter logs.  Yes, there is room for another log up there but then he would be overweight.

This load was four at 33' and two at 16.5'.

   Go use the "red toolbox" at the bottom of the left side.  You'll find a calculator in there for both how many bdft in a log as well as the weight.

[beenthere]

Man I've got a lot to learn.
 ..........
Second, you say $1750. for a truckload of Ponderosa. What size logs and truck would that be? I'm pretty much clueless on the whole boardfoot measuring system. Let's say you have a 24" diameter (on the small end) Ponderosa that measures out to 16 ft. long. How many bdft should a guy estimate from that log? Do the loggers usually have the same size trailers?  How many bdft would you estimate are in the 8 logs in the first picture in this thread?

................

Cornerstone
Look at this Forums tool box in the left column under the list of sponsors. In that red tool box you will find a lot of valuable information.
Foremost is the board foot calculator that you just put in the diameter of the small end, and the length, and read off the volume of that log in board feet.
Board foot (1" x 12" x 12" ) is the standard measurement for lumber.

[Cornerstone]

Thank you all for showing me the toolbox. It's going to be my homework to learn the basics of wood economics. I've been in the retail furniture business for myself since 94', so I understand profit margins on something that has already been manufactured... really not much to that. I've had as many as 12 employees at a time over the years working in 3 retail stores. From that experience I learned it's not how much money flows through your hands, it's how much stays in the pocket. Bigger isn't always more profitable if ya know what I mean. I'm down to one store and 4 employees these days and basically don't have to work there if I don't want to, which translates into me showing up randomly. Sometimes 5 times a week, sometimes once in 5 weeks. 

As far as selling any wood that I mill I'm sure I'll have to get a few hundred hours of sawing under the belt to see what the margins can be and still be competitive. I've got enough projects of my own to keep me busy and learning the ropes until I'm at the stage of being confident enough to offer milling services.

Thank you guys for the help. I hope to return the favor someday.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Further to the Board Ft, remember it is a cubic inch measurement of 144 cubic inches. 

   Calculate bf of a board as thickness (Inches) X width (Inches) X length (Ft) divided by 12 so the 1"X12"X1' board is a board foot but so is a 2"X6"X1' or a 1"X4"X3' or a 1"X6"X2'.

   My customers want to know so to help them visualize I tell them a 5'X10' trailer stacked tight to a height of 20" is 1,000 bf or a pretty tightly stacked pick up load of 8' lumber is about 500 bf.

   Another handy tidbit is a good straight log will square up approximately 2/3 the diameter of the small end so a 12" small end log (Inside bark measurement) will make a beam 8" square which would also make about 8 - 1X8s or 4-2X8s. You will usually salvage a little more off the sides but this is handy if they need a beam of a certain size.

[moodnacreek]

Tree service logs are almost never the right logs for traditional lumber making. Besides metal most are open grown and felled wrong as in cut to the notch and all split inside the butt where the good wood is. They will in many cases be bucked wrong with the sweep in the middle of the log. In pine the tapered top log cut long but not long enough to get 2 8 footers and so on. I saw this kind of stuff because I can't get logger cut, woods grown anymore. What you don't really want is tree service wood brought right from the job unless you have a lot of room for waste or a big fire pit. Much of what comes here has been picked from there yard and trimmed up. I trim it better and metal detect. 

[Cornerstone]

Took a stroll through Lowes today to see what the price pr. bdft was for red oak. With the help of the toolbox, I figured they are getting over $15. a bdft. I did the math on a smaller board and it was the same price pr. bdft. From my first purchase of logs, I've got 1 pretty nice red oak log to play with and the log bdft calculator indicated it would have 243 bdft. on the international 1/4" scale. A quick multiplication would value this log at over $3600. if it were sitting on the shelf for sale at Lowes. Now, I realize that's far from accurate considering a ton of things I don't know yet, some of which are kiln dried vs. rough cut and wet, waste, shrinkage, etc. It is definitely intriguing to learn what the actual profit margins are for a small hobby sawyer outfit. Are there any good threads on small scale profitability that anyone can point to for my reading entertainment?



 

 

[rusticretreater]

Not only kiln dried, but also planed and edged, then shipped.  And prices are always regional.

As for threads, the search engine is your friend.

[Ron Wenrich]

This should be figured on the dimension scale.  It ends up being a 1x12x6, which has 6 bf, and a price of $10.49/bf.  That is what you would be cutting in order to end up with a board like that.  And, you should be cutting it a bit over 1" to get down to the 3/4" dressed size, especially on a 12" wide board.  The other thing to look at is whether it is glued up stock. 

I've looked at boards at Lowe's and others, and they're selling a bunch of nice looking 1 Common boards.  The good grade has been picked out.  They're also selling retail vs wholesale.  And, they are storing the inventory waiting for someone who needs just a board or 2. 

Be real careful looking at prices in retail outlets.  They're not a true reflection of markets.  If prices were that real, everyone would be charging it. I always ask myself if I would pay that price for it. 

[kantuckid]

Box store buyers are not who a small-scale producer/seller will sell to. Those somewhat potential customers are also not the typical person buying from CL or FB ads either. 
I've offered free carving wood and other wood such as turning shorts, pen blank materials, etc., to people when in a woodworking store and never gave away anything as a result. Some people simply want box store convenience and will not drive to source wood. 
Local sawmills having a helpful mentality will provide you with logger's names who have logs they might not be buying or buying reluctantly.
 Loggers may sell to you based on your haul distance alone than to their regular markets, given the cost of diesel right now.
 An 18-wheeler can cost $thousands$ to fill up today! :

[moodnacreek]

A logging contractor really does not have time to fool with a back yard part time buyer. They may try to use you to clean up a landing [a mixed load of stuff there buyer does not want] The most important thing is to make a deal with an honest logger and you be the same way. You need this person and if you find him you will take delivery on his schedule and pay cash. He needs to know where to unload if you are not home and you will scale the logs and go pay him. Trucks like tri axels with pickers are expensive in every respect and now with fuel prices too expensive to operate. Loads get delivered when ever, probably Sunday or maybe after dark. A load is never refused once it arrives, the truck returns empty and the wood gets paid for. If you don't like the wood tell him no more. This is the way it has to be.

[Cornerstone]

Loggers may sell to you based on your haul distance alone than to their regular markets, given the cost of diesel right now.
An 18-wheeler can cost $thousands$ to fill up today! :

This is what I'm afraid of! Most all of the mills are in logging country, 3 hours away. I really wouldn't expect a logger to bring me a load. I was hoping more so to meet one in his neck of the woods and bring it home myself.

[Cornerstone]

A logging contractor really does not have time to fool with a back yard part time buyer. They may try to use you to clean up a landing [a mixed load of stuff there buyer does not want] The most important thing is to make a deal with an honest logger and you be the same way. You need this person and if you find him you will take delivery on his schedule and pay cash. He needs to know where to unload if you are not home and you will scale the logs and go pay him. Trucks like tri axels with pickers are expensive in every respect and now with fuel prices too expensive to operate. Loads get delivered when ever, probably Sunday or maybe after dark. A load is never refused once it arrives, the truck returns empty and the wood gets paid for. If you don't like the wood tell him no more. This is the way it has to be.

All truth here. This is what I would expect as well. I think what I'm gathering from all of these responses is this, I just need to settle down and make the calls and the connections as time allows. I placed a Craigslist ad a couple days ago, and have had 2 responses so far. One guy very close to me who has one 18" cedar log about 17' long, he wants me to cut it up for him and we split the wood. Hardly worth it but what else have I got? The other is a lady who has an acre and a half heavily wooded lot and said she wants it roughly 90% cleared, and I can take whatever I want. I'm going to see what she's got tomorrow afternoon. I have a feeling as word spreads, I'll get as much wood as I'll want. I'm not at all dependent on it for sustenance, I just am really excited to do this! I'll just get my fix with "Out of the Woods" YouTube channel until I have tons of wood to cut. I love that guys accent, I can hear him now... "Well hello friends!" lol lol lol 

[moodnacreek]

If you , on a well travelled road had a pile of logs with a sign sawing ' saw logs wanted' , the pile might grow.

[metalspinner]

Those are homeowner prices. People who have no equipment, no experience or skill set to make a board. They need one or two boards to make a book shelf. 
Or maybe a contractor that needs some trim pieces real quick. 

No serious, large scale projects are coming from those racks. Those prices have always been high like that. 

[moodnacreek]

Those are homeowner prices. People who have no equipment, no experience or skill set to make a board. They need one or two boards to make a book shelf.
Or maybe a contractor that needs some trim pieces real quick.

No serious, large scale projects are coming from those racks. Those prices have always been high like that.

Finished to softwood size like that goes against old hard wood traditions like random with. A traditional grade hardwood board, unsurfaced, would be over an inch  thick and just over called width. I can't bring myself to edge fas walnut ,cherry, oak etc to stock pine widths sometimes burning 1 1/2" strips [of clear]. But that's what people want. The more waste the better.

[Cornerstone]

   Today, just before I was headed out to go see the acre and a half piece of property that I was offered any tree I wanted, the phone rang. This time it was a guy who was interested in a trade. He has a 400 acre piece of property that is a working ranch. He needs about another dozen 10' posts and a few larger beams to have all the wood he needs to complete a timber frame house build that he has been stockpiling materials for.

 My first stop was only 15 minutes from the house. It has easy access and I can bring my skid steer and grapple to haul out all that I want. She didn't even want me to clean up after I take what I want. Her place seemed to only have hackberry trees with an average dbh of approximately 18-20" and maybe 1 or 2 slightly smaller live oaks. Being new at this I'm still not sure what species are worth messing with and what are junk.  As I was leaving her place I almost considered not making the hour and twenty minute ride to go to the next place, but only briefly. lol

 I made the trip out to the ranch and we walked through one particular field that is to be cleared of all trees, I would estimate 8 acres. Every one of them was a post oak, with an average dbh of 26". There were several easily over 30". I would estimate a total of 30 mature 50+ ft. tall post oaks free for the taking. Well, if you call the labor of felling 30 large trees "free". We haven't worked out the details and specifics yet but we will before any work starts. If I were to make a guess how it will go I think he will be happy with him getting the rest of the cut green lumber he needs in trade for me taking more than half of the logs home with me to cut at my leisure. I think the work on my end will be one full day using my skid steer with brush cutter to clear out around the trees to make the work much easier, and a full week working with him felling and delimbing the +/-30 trees. Then sawing probably 10 logs for him free of charge. This guy also does not want anything cleaned up, not even pushed into a burn pile.

 What have I gotten myself into here guys? To me, at the moment I think I've hit the wood jackpot! I must admit, I've had these gut feelings before and afterward looked back in hindsight and thought to myself I must have been blind. That's not the norm though, usually I'm pretty good at seeing the whole picture, and calculating the cost beforehand. I would love to hear what you fellas with experience think about this deal, does it seem like a good deal for both of us or does it favor one party in particular?

 These are a couple of pictures of the hackberry trees at the first ladies place. I totally forgot to take pics of the big post oaks at the second place this trip. If I'm fortunate enough to get this arrangement made, you can count on those pictures to come.



 



 

 Like the good book says...    "Ask and you will receive"  

[moodnacreek]

This is the U.S.A. and we have the resources .

[Ljohnsaw]

Sounds like you got a couple good sources of wood.  I don't have hackberry trees out here so I can't comment on the sutability or "fun" in cutting that wood.  The few pictures you posted they look more like character wood candidates than lumber.  I would lean toward making some cool slabs from them.  Maybe the 2nd or 3rd logs look better for lumber?

You guys back east have some great oaks to cut.  Here is a straight one out here:


or this...

 

I will say that I once busted my hump pulling out some ponderosa logs from a messy clear cut home owners property, hauled 30 miles up nearly 4,000' elevation, wearing out my truck and body before I got smart.  Much easier to have a truck deliver it!

 

 

 

This was four trips.  Most cut good.  I think one or two got kicked.  Looking back through my photos, I generated a lot of 5x9 loft joists.  Of the 19 or 20 I cut, I was only able to savage 9 to use on my frame.  I learned that if there is any crook in the tree, it will either bite you when you saw or after it drys.  YMMV

[Brad_bb]

My reaction.... you want to be a sawyer, not a logger right?  Like anything, logging is a specialization to be efficient at it.  From what I gather, you're not.  Am I right?  You estimated 8 days of work to brush and cut.  I think you are off by a factor of 3.  

To cut 10 logs form him- I have not seen your home built sawmill, is it on par with woodmizer's LT15?  I'll assume that (cause that's what I have).  To cut those 10 logs of that size is going to take me 5-8 days.  I have to manually turn and clamp logs and I assume you do as well.  To me this is a reasonable estimate especially when you include cleanup.  It is part of the process.

So that's 4-5 weeks hard labor and equipment, in exchange for 20 logs 26" DBH.  Yes you may get some second logs and some good large branches if you have a use like I do, but still....

If you have 12' butt logs, what is the dia on the small end.  Use that for calculation.  Let's assume 3" taper.  So 23" dia x 12 ft long -271BF

271x 20 logs - 5420 BF.  If I assume $50/hr for logging and milling (Is this low for logging?  I don't know, but even for manual milling It should probably be $65 min or more).

Anyhow, that would mean $50x40hrsx5weeks- $10,000

So $10,000/5420BF= $1.84 per BF log cost.

I did not include loading and hauling time in this.  If you have just a dually with trailer, that's going to take many trips chaining down and unchaining.  Do you have loading/unloading equipment on each end?

To me that's a lot.  I personally wouldn't do it.  

He 1. Wants his trees cut down 2. Want you to stage and haul all of the logs away 3. Wants rough sawn beams and posts cut for his own use 4. Wants you to deliver his cut wood.  He'd be getting all that without spending any money. 
You 1. Get 20 logs and maybe some seconds.

I'd advise him to hire a logger/cutter to drop and limb.  You could mark any large branches or upper wood you want to save to he cuts it where you want.  

Then you are doing the hauling and the milling.  Which is going to be about a week and a half to two weeks all together.  Plus you'd have to spend your fuel, equipment hauling and running time.  That's plenty in exchange for the 20 good logs(assuming) plus any bonus wood.  Even at this rate, you're not making out anything special.  I'd rather do this in exchange for milling 5 logs for him.

There's a lot of variables here.  I'd rather have oak than hackberry for sure. I'm only going to do this kind of work for Walnut, period.  I don't want to be a logger.  I don't have insurance, the skills, the proper equipment, or the  crew with training to do it safely and efficiently.  I doubt you do either.  I want logs already on the ground that I can buy.  I prefer not to haul unless it's something I really want. And most of the time they don't have a way to load on the other end so you have to solve that.  This is just how I think and approach it.  Ya'll feel free to criticize my assessment.  I don't know how much log prices have changed in the last year.  I haven't been buying in the last year.

[Brad_bb]

And don't forget the FF definition of a log.  Logs roll, trees do not.  No thumbs on a log.

[WDH]

Why do you think those trees pictured are hackberry?

[Cornerstone]

And don't forget the FF definition of a log.  Logs roll, trees do not.  No thumbs on a log.

Thank you for the level of consideration you gave on this Brad_bb. You went above and beyond here. On most all of your assumptions you made are correct. My mill is very close in specs to the LT15 in it's capabilities, but mine has a 22 hp engine.

[Cornerstone]

Why do you think those trees pictured are hackberry?

I'm glad you asked. I looked it up on the web by comparing leaf designs, and didn't have a ton of confidence in my findings. I thought hackberry's had a less consistent bark pattern. This leaf was on 95% of all the trees there.


 

[Cornerstone]

*Sounds like you got a couple good sources of wood. 


*The few pictures you posted they look more like character wood candidates than lumber.  I would lean toward making some cool slabs from them.


*I learned that if there is any crook in the tree, it will either bite you when you saw or after it dries. 

Thanks for your thoughts John.
*It sure seems like it to me. 
*This is exactly what I am thinking as well. It blows me away when I see how much live edge slabs sell for. 
*What do you men by crook specifically? I imagine the trunk would have a single bend it making it lean to the side. Am I right?

[WV Sawmiller]

  Interesting results so far. I can't on the hackberry as not a common sawable species here for me. Sawing on halves like the cedar can work out if you need the cedar. I have sawed on shares but now make a practice of them bringing me the logs as I found I was putting in too much time and miles for the effort and only then if it is s species I have a market or need for.

   The rancher sounds like it could be a good deal. From your description he sounds like a pretty straight up dude and seems like he would benefit from your efforts and is not trying to gouge you. I hope I am reading the thread right. I would continue to tentatively pursue this option but be careful with the time and investment put out till I was sure it was worth it.

   In all cases I'd be sure I had a need or market for the wood. I see nothing wrong with occasionally sawing a new species or style of cut for the experience.

   

[Ron Wenrich]

You'll have to sharpen up your dendrology skills.  I'm not familiar with southern species, but I believe you're looking at elm.  I've sawn very few elms, since there are very few in the area.  Low volume means low demand.  Hackberry has a gray bark.  The wood is pretty bland with little grain pattern.  We sawed them into RR ties and pallet lumber.  

I think you might want to step back and take a look at a few things.  If you don't have a business plan, now might be the time.  Maybe you're looking more at a hobby plan.

First thing you're going to have to figure out is what you're planning on doing with the lumber.  If its for self use or part of your business, you'll need to know how much, what kind of quality and what species.  If you're looking at selling, the same will be needed.  You'll also have to figure out what you'll do with your waste.  You will have slabs and sawdust, but you won't be cutting high quality lumber in every log or even throughout a log.  You will have low grade that has to be considered into your calculations.

The next thing you need to know is the your production capacity.  I'm not too familiar with band mills, but I do know if you don't have any hydraulics, you're in for a ton of work.  Rule of thumb for profitability is 1 Mbf/manday.  Mbf=1,000 bf.  A manday is usually considered to be 8 hrs.  If you're a 1 man show, you'll have to be able to saw, move the lumber and logs, clean up the sawdust, and dispose of slabs.  Anything you do to lessen those side things often end up in an expense.  Sharpening blades can either be done on site or sent out. 

Right now you're trying to source logs.  Every mill has this problem.  Those with lots of experience have tried and true methods that work for them.  If people are willing to give you logs, that may be an indication that they don't have much value.  If its a small amount, that could be a plus, since loggers need a minimum of a truckload to even get a sniff of interest.  As Brad points out free ain't free.

Figure out how many logs you'll need to satisfy your needs for a month.  Finding a logger or a mill that will sell you a couple Mbf of logs is probably your best source for right now.  If you want to go the urban route, you can get some logs, but be selective.  In my area, you run into a bunch of sycamore, pin oak, and silver maple.  You might find some contractors that have cleared lots for home building. 

I think you need to practice some sawing before you get into logging.  Get to know your capacity before you get too involved in getting a ton of logs.  Learn what your markets are and figure out what size logs you want.  Logs shorter than 8' are okay to practice on, but you'll be hard pressed to sell lumber shorter than 8'.   Short logs are production killers.

[moodnacreek]

Even 8 footers in hardwood and dry weather can wind up 6 footers.

[WDH]

Ron is spot on.  The trees are elm, not hackberry.  Elm is spiral grain and difficult to dry flat if flatsawn.  Very bad to warp and twist.  Quartersawing yields the best quality lumber, but you cannot quartersaw small logs.  I like to have 20" on the small end to be a candidate for quartersawing. 

[Cornerstone]

You'll have to sharpen up your dendrology skills.  I'm not familiar with southern species, but I believe you're looking at elm.  I've sawn very few elms, since there are very few in the area.  Low volume means low demand.  Hackberry has a gray bark.  The wood is pretty bland with little grain pattern.  We sawed them into RR ties and pallet lumber.  

I think you might want to step back and take a look at a few things.  If you don't have a business plan, now might be the time.  Maybe you're looking more at a hobby plan.

First thing you're going to have to figure out is what you're planning on doing with the lumber.  If its for self use or part of your business, you'll need to know how much, what kind of quality and what species.  If you're looking at selling, the same will be needed.  You'll also have to figure out what you'll do with your waste.  You will have slabs and sawdust, but you won't be cutting high quality lumber in every log or even throughout a log.  You will have low grade that has to be considered into your calculations.

The next thing you need to know is the your production capacity.  I'm not too familiar with band mills, but I do know if you don't have any hydraulics, you're in for a ton of work.  Rule of thumb for profitability is 1 Mbf/manday.  Mbf=1,000 bf.  A manday is usually considered to be 8 hrs.  If you're a 1 man show, you'll have to be able to saw, move the lumber and logs, clean up the sawdust, and dispose of slabs.  Anything you do to lessen those side things often end up in an expense.  Sharpening blades can either be done on site or sent out.  

Right now you're trying to source logs.  Every mill has this problem.  Those with lots of experience have tried and true methods that work for them.  If people are willing to give you logs, that may be an indication that they don't have much value.  If its a small amount, that could be a plus, since loggers need a minimum of a truckload to even get a sniff of interest.  As Brad points out free ain't free.

Figure out how many logs you'll need to satisfy your needs for a month.  Finding a logger or a mill that will sell you a couple Mbf of logs is probably your best source for right now.  If you want to go the urban route, you can get some logs, but be selective.  In my area, you run into a bunch of sycamore, pin oak, and silver maple.  You might find some contractors that have cleared lots for home building.  

I think you need to practice some sawing before you get into logging.  Get to know your capacity before you get too involved in getting a ton of logs.  Learn what your markets are and figure out what size logs you want.  Logs shorter than 8' are okay to practice on, but you'll be hard pressed to sell lumber shorter than 8'.   Short logs are production killers.

I really appreciate the guidance Ron. Yes, I'm not even a hobby sawyer since I still haven't cut a single board on my own mill yet. Just a few more hours work till I'm ready to go. I'll most likely remain a hobby sawyer, selling live edge slabs on Marketplace as demand permits. I do have a lot of need for lumber over time, but that's not a pressing issue.

Addressing some of your comments, In regard to waste I have a 15'x30'x10' deep burn pit and the heavy equipment (Case backhoe, 2 ton dump truck and skid steer) to make relatively quick work of the waste.

The leaf I posted does have the same general shape as the elms on my property, with the exception of size. At my place they max out at 1 inch, and as you can see in the photo posted it's closer to 4 inches. One thing is definite, my current dendrology skills are lousy at best. lol
With the load of logs I've already purchased from an east Texas sawmill I've got plenty of practice work lined up, so I'll do my best to pipe down and get some experience now. For the past 2.5 months I've solely been a fabricator/welder building the mill. I'm pretty excited to finally put it to use.

Thank you all of you gentlemen very much for sharing your wisdom. You're helping me speed up the mandatory learning curve that comes with every new adventure.

[barbender]

Most if the time I spent chasing free logs, or cut em and you can have em type of logs ended up being a waste of time. I guess I had more energy back then😁 The logs I make money on are the ones I bought from loggers. Even though they seem expensive, buying exactly the logs you need saves you from wasting a ton of time.

I would suggest reaching out to a logging outfit. Tell them what you're looking for, and given your distance from the loggers, I'd offer to pay for the wood up front. I would go over and meet them when they load it to make sure you're getting what you asked for, and have a big envelope of green to pay for it right there. The reason is that no one is going to risk sending a load that far and not get paid for it. The trucking costs are going to be huge for a haul of that distance. Once you get someone to bite, then you can start forming a relationship with that logger. If they can get paid, get in and out, basically make money with no drama, they will likely continue to bring you wood.

My boss (I work for a logger) doesn't like to mess around at all, but we have a mill 2.5 hours away we will bring wood to. It's an Amish mill that buys good grade hardwood logs from us. Now, we shove load after load of hardwood logs into the local pallet mills, and we don't have any close grade mills. I cringe at the beautiful hardwood logs that go to the pallet mill. But the Amish pay enough to make it worth our while to sort the good logs (probably almost twice the $$) so when they call looking for logs, we try to supply them. We would do the same for you if you were in our area, if you paid upfront.

[Cornerstone]

Mist if the time I spent chasing free logs, or cut em and you can have em type of logs ended up being a waste of time. I guess I had more energy back then😁 The logs I make money on are the ones I bought from loggers. Even though they seem expensive, buying exactly the logs you need saves you from wasting a ton of time.

I would suggest reaching out to a logging outfit. Tell them what you're looking for, and given your distance from the loggers, I'd offer to pay for the wood up front. I would go over and meet them when they load it to make sure you're getting what you asked for, and have a big envelope of green to pay for it right there. The reason is that no one is going to risk sending a load that far and not get paid for it. The trucking costs are going to be huge for a haul of that distance. Once you get someone to bite, then you can start forming a relationship with that logger. If they can get paid, get in and out, basically make money with no drama, they will likely continue to bring you wood.

My boss (I work for a logger) doesn't like to mess around at all, but we have a mill 2.5 hours away we will bring wood to. It's an Amish mill that buys good grade hardwood logs from us. Now, we shove load after load of hardwood logs into the local pallet mills, and we don't have any close grade mills. I cringe at the beautiful hardwood logs that go to the pallet mill. But the Amish pay enough to make it worth our while to sort the good logs (probably almost twice the $$) so when they call looking for logs, we try to supply them. We would do the same for you if you were in our area, if you paid upfront.

With the sheer amount of nutburgers these days pre paying, preferably in cash, is a must in a new business relationship... I agree 100%. Your post reminded me of a contact I had forgotten about, a business acquaintance who has several friends who are loggers. He said he would put me in touch with them when I was ready. 
Thanks barbender!

[Cornerstone]

I googled arborists in my area and low and behold, I've got a new connection. The company is family owned, only a couple miles away and very willing to help a brother out. The owner and I spoke for a while today. He said he has been considering buying a sawmill for obvious reasons, and asked me what the throat width was on my mill. He's got a 20' over 40" dbh pecan log that he's been wanting to be slabbed out for over a year.  Unfortunately I can't help him out since he wants to keep it live edge and I can only go upwards of 32". They are a busy company with crews taking down long logs daily. His main concern was doing zero damage to customers lawns, understandably. We then discussed my equipment and capabilities. They are using those fancy plastic matts that keep ruts from forming in the grass, and said I would be able to use them with my equipment. Apparently there is a tree disease going around and a lot of the area parks are loosing many big trees to it. I do believe this will be an excellent source for inexpensive and or free wood. I'm thinking my next project will be a log arch for my trailer like Matt Creamora built.

[Ljohnsaw]

He's got a 20' over 40" dbh pecan log

  Don't do it!

[Cornerstone]

Probably against better judgement, I took a trip out to the ranch, and brought equipment with me to get started. I had some of the details of the the story wrong earlier in the thread, but nothing that really changes the outcome. Turns out the ranch is several thousand acres, not 400 acres. Also, it's not 30-40 trees, it's 70... so far. We worked a 60/40 split on any logs we harvest. I get 60% and he gets 40%. He gave me a cut list of 21 various beams and posts I've agreed to mill for him as well. About half of them are 8"x8"x10' and the others are mostly 6"x12" anywhere from 10' to 17' long. The deal seemed like a no brainer to me, especially since his 30 year old son who has good experience felling trees will be helping me. It will be a learning experience if nothing else. I'll keep a record of my expenses to figure out what these logs end up costing me. Here are a few pictures of the place.

This is how it looked upon arrival, then I got to work cutting all the brush under the trees to allow the felling to go much quicker.


 

It took about 8 hours to clear under 70 trees.


 


If you look closely, you can see my new chainsaw. It has a 20" bar, if that helps you gauge the size of the post oak. This tree is probably a little bit larger than the average DBH. I think it turned out to be 28" inside the bark.


 


This was the first tree I cut down. I think it was a 23 incher. What a cool sound it makes when it starts to go. Once I notice the tree starting to lean, I shut the saw off and wait for the loud POP! as the last few fibers of the tree break. I can feel it in my feet when it does that. It's quite the visceral feeling when that big honker crashes to the ground. I was so excited I yelled out "TIMMMBERRRR!!!" even though there was no one near me for miles away. :D


 


I briefly tried to count the rings but decided to get a cleaner cut and try it again. Any one care to guess the age? : I think this one is over 85 years old.


 

That's 3 down, only 67 more to go. ;D ;D 8) ;D ;D


 


This one had a big ol' hole in the center. No big beams coming from this one I guess.


 



I was asked to leave a decent sized stump so a dozer will not have too much trouble removing them, otherwise I would have taken them much lower. It's all good with me since my mill can only handle a 17' log anyways. So far I have 2.5 days of work involved.

When do I need to Anchorseal the ends of the logs? Let me guess... the sooner the better?

[WV Sawmiller]

   That hole in the tree is for him to run his wiring through  when you cut the beam from it. ;)

  Nice post. I'm waiting to see what the lumber looks like.

[Cornerstone]

Here are the some of first of the post oak logs that I got delimbed and moved to a loading area. I had help on my third day out there.



 




 

Then, I got a call from my tree service guy this afternoon telling me of a couple of good sized pecan crotch's from a local city park free for the taking if I wanted. I'd bet a donut it's got metal in it, so I'll use a blade that's already borderline toast. I wasn't too busy at the moment, so I headed over with the skid steer and loaded them up on the front of the trailer.



 

These are the large ends


 



 

After I get all these logs to the house I need to get busy sawing!

[WDH]

 

[Cornerstone]

I though I'd show some of the post oak I've been harvesting and milling. Sorry for the neck cramp.



 




 




 

I've got 6 days of work involved so far, I think another 2-3 and the logging part will be done. I brought 2 logs home so far and opened this one up to get a glimpse of the grain. I was pleasantly surprised on the amount of character the wood has. The first few cuts I made were all 6/4 boards. I see the next couple of mods needed are a log turner and some sort of "set works"? Not sure what that exactly means but I mean I need a way to cut the same thickness with consistency. I've seen a few different ways to tackle that, but really need to stare at my mill and just figure it out.

[Cornerstone]

I cut a few more slabs off this log. The grain pattern seems very colorful to my unexperienced eye. Is this common for post oak?






 









 

[kantuckid]

Good luck on tree logs around Azel, TX!  :D
 I googled your location to learn it was sort of between Ft Worth and Mineral Wells, TX where I was in rotor wing flight school in 1969. We flew all over that area of course and I've got to say most of the trees looked like pygmies to my memory, excepting on a stream. 
 I went out one weekend and dummy me picked up a sack of wild pecan nuts not knowing the little holes meant worm, no nut meat. ;D Those Pecan trees were little, barely shade for cattle. 
Those oaks look worth the effort though. Can you sell craft wood in the city?

[Cornerstone]

 :D Thanks for feeling my pain! Yeah, these oaks are a real treat since like you say... they're all pygmies around these parts! If I ever need pine I will have to go 3 hours east. I'm sure I could sell craft wood in town.  Would anyone care to tell me what defines craft wood? I guess any wood or boards that are not for construction use? 

[rusticretreater]

I would define craft wood as any wood pieces that are high quality, fine grained, knot free and in most cases not full length(8ft etc.).  Stuff you make cabinets, boxes, chairs from.  This can also include chunks of wood for turning on a lathe and nowadays, the nice slab wood too.

[230Dforme]

Good afternoon 
I am in an upstate NY affluent community with many tree companies. I am a one man tree service.
The amount of logs, wood that has to be gotten rid of everyday is tremendous. Most companies just want to find a place to put it. If you have a place to
unload it when they want to, and make some good contacts, I think you'll get all good results.

[Cornerstone]

I thought I'd give an update on this thread. Over the heat of the summer we took down 67 Post oak trees, with a 60/40 split. I get 60% he gets 40%. In the deal I would saw 21 beams and posts for his timber frame build. We put my newly built mill to work and fulfilled his cut list with 4 days of sawing at his place. That finished up our original agreement. It was then that he asked me to continue sawing since he had changed up his plans and now needed more beams and posts. We agreed on an hourly rate of $75. and he pays my diesel fuel to commute back and forth. I know that is a low hourly rate, but we now have become friends so it was my pleasure to help him out. 

Here we have a load of logs going to his house less than a mile away from the ranch we harvested them from. How do you like my new to me Dodge Ram 3500 4x4? It's the first diesel truck I've ever owned and it'll be hard to go back to gasoline! 


 



This ls one of the loads I carried home.


 



This is where we set up the mill at his place.


 




These are the beams and posts from his initial cut list. We did have some wavy cuts getting things figured out. I found that the lower 4 degree angle blades cut hardwood better than the first batch of blades I bought. No waves at all with the correct blade being used. 


 


All of his off cuts we made 2" thick.


 


So far I have cut a total of 4510 board feet on this job (these pics were taken about 2/3 the way through). It's been a great learning experience in all and I can't wait til' I get to start sawing on my own logs. My first project will be a saw shed for my mill. Thanks to all who have answered questions and helped transform this noob into the beginnings of a somewhat experienced sawyer. 

[Ljohnsaw]

Great to see a follow up.  I think $75 is a pretty good rate given that you are a new sawyer with not much experience.  Good deal on the fuel, too.

[kantuckid]

FWIW and for comparisons sake-> in my area that's not a low rate.