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Started by Ljohnsaw, October 20, 2012, 05:07:03 PM

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Ljohnsaw

Hello all - I've been lurking and reading for a few weeks.  I've got so many ideas spinning around in my head that it is difficult to sleep at night! :)

I ordered 3 books on timber framing but I just can't wait for them to get here... :-\

I'm purchasing a 10 acre parcel of land at ~6,000 in the northern Sierras in California.  The land has a wide variety of trees that I have yet to identify.  Some of them I know - Ponderosa Pine & Cedar.  There are a few other pines and firs but no hardwood (oak) at this elevation.  The trees range in useable diameter from 12" to 36"+ (Pine) and over 4' (cedars).

First project will be a timber frame shed/barn/garage.  I want to make it long enough for storing my boat in the future and timber storage for my second project so I'm shooting for 30'.  To set the rafters (probably a 12x12 pitch) it looks like you run a continuous beam down the length of the structure on top of the posts.  That is a loooong beam.  Is there a proven or preferred method of using two or more beams?

I read on the forum that you can only expect to get one "beam/post" out of each log such that you box the heart to keep it stable.  What about your rafters - in the 5x7 or larger class.  Can I expect to get those off the sides of the beams and they remain useable?

There were a few standing dead pine with no bark (leaning on other trees).  Is it safe to assume no usable timber wood is contained in them?  Other than firewood, I don't want to waste my time getting them down.  They are rather dangerous looking but I'd like to use them if possible - perhaps inside wall planking or flooring if there would be some interesting splalting?? ???

Since this will be a garage, I plan on pouring a slab.  To satisfy the building code, I suppose I will need to use straps set in the concrete to attach the posts.  Is that correct? Then for the walls, use typical stick construction method by anchor bolting a sill (treated) plate between the posts?

What about cedar for timber framing?  I won't be cutting down the few giants on the property but there are some others that I might harvest if a particular use can be found for them.  Too soft for flooring but maybe cabinetry?

My second project will actually be a timber frame cabin.  I want a concrete basement for firewood storage,workshop, etc.  Am I safe to assume the same method of attaching the posts to the foundation wall with straps and a "normal" sill plate for the wall frame?

I was not planning on doing the SIP on the outside, just using the wall thickness from the timbers to be the insulated space - say 8" out of a 10" thick wall.  I won't have the full posts and beams exposed (just a couple of inches), but the rafters and cross beams/floor joists will be exposed. 

This place is a wealth of information and I thank you all in advance.
John
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

shelbycharger400

I dont have any answers for your questions.
what kind of cedars are they? If you have junipers they might make you more money just selling them as is.  the curvy curly growing junipers are worth premium to some furniture makers.

Personally id use the pine for construction and use the cedar if its western red,  for a deck or furniture or trim inside or out.

Jim_Rogers

Wow, John, lots of questions but that is good.

When you get these book, you'll get lots of answers.

But in the meantime, I'll try and answer a few.

You asked: "Is there a proven or preferred method of using two or more beams?"
and: Yes, you can use two beams. The important part is where these two beam join. It is called a scarf.
If you haven't read the glossary of terms you may need to do that soon.

Joining two beam, end to end is commonly done, but as I mentioned the location of the actual joint is important. You need to do it beside a post, not directly over it. Search for my stories here about scarf joints and you'll see why.

You asked: "5x7 or larger class.  Can I expect to get those off the sides of the beams and they remain useable?"
and: That's is hard for me to say. Normally any timber that is larger then 5" in both dimensions is boxed heart cut to make it stable. If your sawmill will have the capacity of cutting a 5x7 off the side of a large log without the heart being in the rafter then these would be considered "FOHC" which means "Free Of Heart Center". Those types of beams maybe ok; they may also distort when they start drying out.

You asked: "standing dead pine with no bark (leaning on other trees).  Is it safe to assume no usable timber wood is contained in them?"
and: Sometimes the "heart wood" can be used. But you'll have to cut them down and look at the end grain and inspect them for quality before you can make a good call.

You asked: "I suppose I will need to use straps set in the concrete to attach the posts.  Is that correct?
and: That is one solution. Being that you are in CA and you'll need to have your design reviewed and inspected carefully by an experienced timber framing engineer to make sure it meets all seismic code requirements.

You asked: "Then for the walls, use typical stick construction method by anchor bolting a sill (treated) plate between the posts?"
and: That can be done with proper planning.

What I mean is that you seem to be saying that you want to "infill" the wall between the post or beside the posts and under the plates and gable end ties. This is a challenge as the plate and tie will dry out over time, which means they will shrink and the gap between the "infill" wall and these timbers may open up.

I don't have any experience with cedar for timber framing so I can't comment on that.

Next, a cabin with a concrete basement is different then a garage workshop. You'll have to decide on whether or not, when you're in the basement and you look up, if you want to see timbers from a timber frame floor system or regular stick built floor system. Once that is decided then the post hold down method can be discussed and the wall enclosure system can be reviewed.

Again good questions and hopefully I have helped you with these answers.

Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Brad_bb

To add to what's been said...

You'll find when you receive your books, that there is more than one method for timberframing.  What I mean is, you have obviously seen  one common design where there top plates are used(the long beams you spoke of).  But there are other styles, like individual bents connected by girts.  This style does not use long top plates, at least not necessarily.  There are different roof rafter systems to choose from as well- Ridge beam with 2x rafters on close centers, or large principle rafter with purlins.  You'll end up choosing a style that fits your needs. 

If you only have 10 acres, perhaps you should consider leaving your trees in place, and purchasing your timbers from elsewhere?  Trees take a long time to grow and once removed from your property, you're no going to grow new ones in your lifetime.  I'm guessing that Doug Fir timbers may be available to you in there region.  It has one of the best strength to weight ratios. 

As far as your insulation method, you have many choices.  Besides Sips or infilling, one favored do-it-yourself method is wrap and strap which has been written about in this forum and illustrated.  This is done from the outside face of the timberframe out to it's thickness.  You may want an extended edge of your decking or concrete to account for this.

As I usually do, I must recommend that you take a timberframe workshop.  Sign up soon as spring and summer ones will start filling up.  Back a number of years ago I took Colin Beggs workshop in Idaho.  I recommend it.  There are others too.  You'll find that you will learn much more from a workshop than you can get out of a book or even from forums.  Don't get me wrong, we exchange a lot of great info here, but nothing beats hands on with experienced instructor.

Welcome!

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Ljohnsaw

Jim,
As I have seen elsewhere on this site, you provide lots of valuable insight.  Thank you.

Sounds like a timber frame building needs LOTS of trees.  I was kind of hoping for more big stuff out of one tree but I suppose I'll need lots of lumber for walls and planking - it won't go to waste!

I've read (and printed) a number of your posts.  I think I know (for the cabin) that I should be using back sawn timber for wall paneling (vertical pine boards) to show off the typical pine grain and quarter sawn timber for structural beams and boards.  Like I said, I think...

I also read many times your "General Rules for Joinery Design" - very, very helpful.

So, for sealing up your timber frame (enclosing the living space), what is the predominant method of choice?  For the outside of my structures, I plan to use something like Hardi-Plank (cement board with wood-grain texture) for longevity, fire protection and anti-woodpeckers! :D
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Dakota

I did something close to what you have in mind. I set the frame in 4" to allow walls to be built around the frame.


 
Then I built the walls.


 
Then I covered the cabin with fiber cement siding.


 
Dave Rinker

witterbound

Are you planning to support that 30 foot beam anywere except the ends?

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: witterbound on October 21, 2012, 03:12:30 PM
Are you planning to support that 30 foot beam anywhere except the ends?

:o Most definitely!  It is just some of the drawing in Sketch-up that I've seen have the beam running end-to-end sitting on a number of posts. 

I've still to get the lingo down - the beams running between the rafters, purlins - seem to be the easier way to build the roof structure.  From there, the "ceiling" would be vertically run boards (ship lap or T&G), foam on top, strapping then metal roof?  Simple enough.

Dakota,
Beautiful frame!  Do you have some inside shots of the frame?  I'd love to see them.  The spacing between bents looks to be about 8 feet?  Was that an extension to an existing structure?  I am also curious as to how your post/rafter/beam are joined.  Any close-up pics of those joints?

Thanks,
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Dakota

Do you have some inside shots of the frame?
I have a few:


 


 
The timber frame was just at the end of my 24'x40' cabin, it measures 16'x24'.  I wanted timber frame for the "great room" and stick built the rest of it.  The rafters were joined at the top plate with a rafter/plate joint.  The tie beams were joined to the posts with a wedged half dovetailed through tenon.  You can look these joints up after you get your books.  You'll have to do some practicing to get the dovetailed through tenon joint just right as it is critical to holding the structure together.


 

Dakota
Dave Rinker

Ljohnsaw

Dakota,
The more I see, the more questions I have  :o

What type of wood is that, Ponderosa?  The grey/blue coloring, is that what everyone is referring to as blue staining?  I kind of like it, it adds some visual diversity.  Did you mill or buy your timbers and sticks?

I see the stud wall in the second shot - what did you put on the inside, sheet rock or wood?  I'm guessing that the OSB on the front wall was just a temporary weather seal - I don't see any studs.

How long did it take you to complete your cabin?  I'm in a high fire area so I plan on doing metal roofing.  Can you tell me why you chose asphalt shingle? Noise level in rain?

Thanks!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Dakota

ljohnsaw,
The wood is indeed Ponderosa pine with the blue stain.  All my wood has it in it, as I only cut the trees that are killed by the pine beetles.  I am losing 80-170 trees per year now.  I'm still trying to get ahead of it, but fear I have lost the battle.

I have milled all the structural lumber with a Lucas 618.  The interior walls will be T&G pine(have not started on this yet).
The OSB is covering the area where the windows on the front go.  These windows are large and quite expensive.  The windows will cover the whole front of the cabin all the way to the peak.  I'm putting them in my self, so it's slow going.


 

After I get them all in, this is what my view will look like:


 

I hate to tell you this, but I have been working on this cabin for 10 years.  I only have 4 weeks per year to work on it and I live 650 miles from the location.  If I had lived close enough to run up there and work on weekends, I could have had it done in a few years.  The fact that I wanted to do everything by myself(footings, cinder block foundation etc.) makes it slow going.
Dakota
Dave Rinker

Dakota

Quote from: ljohnsaw on October 22, 2012, 11:37:21 PM
Dakota,
The more I see, the more questions I have  :o

What type of wood is that, Ponderosa?  The grey/blue coloring, is that what everyone is referring to as blue staining?  I kind of like it, it adds some visual diversity.  Did you mill or buy your timbers and sticks?

I see the stud wall in the second shot - what did you put on the inside, sheet rock or wood?  I'm guessing that the OSB on the front wall was just a temporary weather seal - I don't see any studs.

How long did it take you to complete your cabin?  I'm in a high fire area so I plan on doing metal roofing.  Can you tell me why you chose asphalt shingle? Noise level in rain?

Thanks!
Dave Rinker

Dakota

About the shingles.  When I got ready to do the roof, the price of metal roofing was sky high, so I went  with shingles.
Dakota
Dave Rinker

Ljohnsaw

Absolutely, stunningly, beautiful!  You must have quite a parcel there!

I'd be happy to take some of those logs off your hands  ;)

My parcel (hoping to close this week) has a very densely populated areas - about 8 of the 10 acres.  To get the view of the valley below back, I need to take out a number of trees and there are plenty around the periphery that wouldn't notice being gone.  One of the reasons for doing this is I hope to retire next year and I'll need something to keep me out of trouble. :D  I have an 8-1/2 year old boy that loves to build and I want to teach him about building a house.  Also, I'm very fortunate to have this property only an hour drive from my house.  I'm thinking build a garage/shop/shed the first year and the next one or two for the main cabin.  Nothing fancy, just a 2 bedroom with a loft.  Yesterday and today, it was being hammered by snow!  Should melt off this weekend, however.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

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