iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Wind farms killing eagles, A---okay!

Started by chain, December 08, 2013, 11:29:54 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SPIKER

Did a bit more looking at the normal operating range for the average blade speed is around 200MPH blade tip speed.   the swept area is now ~1 to 1.5acres :o that is pretty big blades.   There seems to be some good info available on line on the subject of the bird kills as well.
This looks like the 600 mph blade speed tho

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/QL-cRuYAxg0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL-cRuYAxg0

The page 3 here PDF has raptor deaths per on page 3
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/wind/pdfs/birds_and_bats_fact_sheet.pdf


Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

drobertson

This has been a very enlightening post for me, and for now have to believe that many facts are both hidden and distorted on both sides in regards to the numbers of Eagles killed by these turbines.  It always seems that with what we call progress, there is always setbacks or downfalls to such progress.   I am sure of one thing, the killing of Eagles was not (I hope) in the original ramifications of such an endeavor of using wind turbines.
And this makes me think of the old wind mills in Holland,  did they suffer avian loss, and if so, has it been documented?  Where by lessons might be learned,    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

pineywoods

I find it a bit hard to believe eagles are just flying headlong into a blade that size. Think about this... Those blades are the same thing as an airplane wing, a large one, it just happens to be bolted to a big hub rather than a fuselage. Any lightplane pilot will tell you that there are violent tornado-like vortices spilling off the wingtips of large planes. They are violent enough to cause structural failure of a light plane flying into them. Any bird, especially a large soaring type, that flies into one of these invisible vortices is gonna be tossed about like a leaf, possibly right into the path of a following blade,or slammed violently into the ground. 
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

OLD MAN GRINDER

Quote from: pineywoods on December 09, 2013, 09:11:38 PM
I find it a bit hard to believe eagles are just flying headlong into a blade that size. Think about this... Those blades are the same thing as an airplane wing, a large one, it just happens to be bolted to a big hub rather than a fuselage. Any lightplane pilot will tell you that there are violent tornado-like vortices spilling off the wingtips of large planes. They are violent enough to cause structural failure of a light plane flying into them. Any bird, especially a large soaring type, that flies into one of these invisible vortices is gonna be tossed about like a leaf, possibly right into the path of a following blade,or slammed violently into the ground.

According to what i have read that is exactly what is happening....


Bob.... smiley_old_guy
If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything..

terry f

   No burning carbon, nothing harmful left in the eco system, don't think anybody's getting sick and haven't heard of any acid rain, just jobs and lots of power, looks like a win win.

pineywoods

Quote from: terry f on December 10, 2013, 04:41:10 AM
   No burning carbon, nothing harmful left in the eco system, don't think anybody's getting sick and haven't heard of any acid rain, just jobs and lots of power, looks like a win win.

Yeah, that's the short sighted view. Totally ignores the resources required to make them monsters. Tons of carbon fiber and epoxy (oil), miles of copper wire. Priced any copper lately ? Think about an oven big enough to bake one of them blades...and the size of the mold...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

BradMarks

In the name of green energy, we taxpayers have subsidized every single windmill in place.  Without enormous tax credits to the "wind farmers", they would not be built.  And the energy being produced is the most expensive available, and when fed into the grid, everyone's rates go up higher than need be.  And personally I am dissapointed that there seems to be no "off-limits" as to location. It's like the movie Field of Dreams, if there's wind - we will build it.  The scenic Columbia Gorge, wind mills built right up to the designated (by Congress) scenic area. And even our sacred Steens Mtns here in Oregon, there's a fight to keep them out, thank goodness.  And we need more?

SwampDonkey

What about the 5000 to 6000 thousand migratory birds killed one night with a flare off at an LNG terminal in Saint John? It made national news. That number is most assuredly inflated, without an actual tally. That's a lot of birds to count or even locate for that matter.

I've always remembered eagles, but they are more common now. The biggest successful come back around here has been the osprey. And those two are competitors. They put up nest platforms for both birds along rivers, power lines and roads. Basically a telephone pole with a platform on top for them to build on.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

chain

But the Wind Farms now have legislation in hand that guarantees protection from prosecution no matter how many Eagles, Osprey, or what other birds they kill........ for THIRTY YEARS!

Wasn't too so long ago the Eagle was in grave danger of becoming extinct, pesticides had entered their reproduction causing their eggs to become sterile. Millions of dollars were spent to save the eagle, legislation proposed, pesticides banned..all to save out National bird, which by the way the likeness is on our USA Seal, and thousands of other items relating to America's patriotism.

Yes, we threw old Baldy under the bus, very sad.

drobertson

So true chain, What's the answer?     david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Jeff

Quote from: chain on December 10, 2013, 08:25:24 PM

Yes, we threw old Baldy under the bus, very sad.

I just don't see it. What I see here in Michigan, is more wind generators every year, and more Eagles than we have ever had, even in the memory of my octogenarian friends.  I believe it is simply the "economy of scale" so to speak. There are a lot more eagles, so there are more eagles dieing by accident. I'd bet that the death rate by accident % is less than its has ever been.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

SwampDonkey

I think the eagles will be fine. Up on Mars Hill I see flocks of migrating crows fly through ( or looks like it) them windmills every fall. I never have seen an eagle flying up there. Maybe I'll worry about the crows.  ;)

What the government giveth, she also taketh.  ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Paul_H

My small hometown in SW BC has an annual Eagle count since the mid 80's and the count goes up and down between 1500 and 2500 annually.It's just one of many salmon river systems on the West coast of Canada.
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

chain

I believe in working things out and I'm sure there's more being done to correct the issue than we know. A independent fact-finding commission, with five year studies may be organized, with experimental ideas to help reduce eagle mortality at the mill farms;, new designs, colors, reflectors, etc.

Jeff, apparently you folks up north and in Canada have far more eagles than here in the Mississippi Flyway. We still have "eagle days" at some Refuge's and lakes. Bus loads of folks and school children come to see the migrating eagles, "Eagle Days"are a big deal around here! Protection of Eagles is strictly enforced, all incidents of eagle deaths are seriously investigated by State wildlife officers and Feds.

terry f

   Indians are allowed to kill and posses eagles, this looks like a good way for them to get the parts they need.

Cedarman

Quote from: terry f on December 11, 2013, 04:32:02 AM
   Indians are allowed to kill and posses eagles, this looks like a good way for them to get the parts they need.
Terry, can the natives use those birds or do they have to "take" the eagles themselves.  There are some crazy rules out there.
Good idea.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

SwampDonkey

For what few they would use in the run of a year or ten years even, I wouldn't think it would make a big impact. We have natives here that like to copy others, doing stuff that was not tradition at all to their tribe. I'm no expert, but we have been among them since the 15C.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

terry f

    I believe they just need the parts, I think most road kills go that way now. I could never imagine how a person could put their sights on a eagle and pull the trigger, but it happens.

Axe Handle Hound

Quote from: chain on December 10, 2013, 08:25:24 PM
But the Wind Farms now have legislation in hand that guarantees protection from prosecution no matter how many Eagles, Osprey, or what other birds they kill........ for THIRTY YEARS!


Chain- I am not a huge proponent of wind energy for a number of reasons, but it's a start towards trying something new.  I do agree with you that it has negative unforeseen consequences for avian and bat species, but there are a lot of private firms and engineers out there right now trying to come up with new designs that mitigate this problem.  I would point out though that industry doesn't have a blanket authorization to kill as many of whatever species happens to fly into the blades.  It's my understanding that in order to receive protection from litigation under the Migratory Bird Species Act the developers have to work with the USFWS in advance of construction to develop a mitigation strategy that addresses potential raptor mortality rates.  If they fail to implement that plan they may very well be open to legal action.  If you do a quick Google search you'll see that Duke Energy recently paid an approximately $1MM fine for bird related deaths at one of their installations in Idaho.  The new rules were designed to create a proactive situation where the planning was done up front rather than after the fact.  It was also designed to give industry a level of protection from what appeared to be unfair litigation.  As a general rule, developers have to recieve federal permits in order to construct a wind farm and despite receiving those permits they were still potentially open to fines by those same agencies in the event a protected species was impacted. 

It's counter intuitive to think that a bird with eyesight like raptors can't avoid a giant blade and there are a lot of theories on why they end up getting killed, but the truth is they do get killed.  Numbers are thrown about by both sides and statistics can be skewed to support either argument, but neither side will say it doesn't happen.  Consider also that there are other man made structures that lead to avian mortality.  A significant contributor to raptor mortality is the power poles you see all over the landscape.  Raptors prefer these for perches and/or nesting platforms and when they spread their wings they get electrocuted.  Glass buildings built near flyways create reflections that mimic water and a substantial number of waterfowl are killed every year as a result.  Likewise, feral cats account for a huge number of bird deaths annually.  Granted, neither of the last two examples is likely to deal much with raptors so the point may be a bit outside of your original topic, but the overall idea of bird mortality due to approved human development is the same. 

doctorb

Need data.  And since I don't have any, I will say that my observations here in MD are that we have a very healthy population of Bald Eagles and Osprey.  As a kid, I rarely saw one.  Now I see them whenever and pretty much wherever I go fishing.  We are not a great "wind" state except in our Blue Ridge Mts, in the western part of the state and a new project to be built way offshore in the Atlantic.  These birds are in between those two for the most part, enjoying the streams and estuaries of the Chesapeake Bay.  We have 6 nesting osprey pairs on the lake at our summer cottage in Ontario.  While certainly accidental avian predator death at the hands of this new technology needs to be studied, and preventative measures designed, I don't think this is a huge problem as these populations have risen to very healthy levels.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Thank You Sponsors!