Hiring Help

[kderby]

It is time to grow.  The question is how to have off-bearer help.  I am stationary and similar in scale to Bibbyman and Mary.  I have seen extensive commentary on WoodWeb's Business Forum about the dynamics of managing crew.  This Forum has been pretty quiet or I have just missed it.  I know Arky had crew.  I don't know about most of y'all.  How do you hire, train and manage help.  I hope this thread will be a big help to all of us looking to grow/sustain a profitable and safe sawdust addiction.

Right now I have a really good young man starting out.  In the past I have had some tailing help.  I have paid many more hours for others to mill.  I have been lucky to have three good sawyers (all trained from scratch).  They kept the blade in the wood while I answered the phone, decked logs, sorted lumber, etc.  Other sawyers I tried just did not have "the eye."  They were gently dismissed.  This latest youngster (20) might not be a sawyer for a while but he will get up to speed as off-bearer and increase my production.

Of course liability is a huge red flag.  I am told "You had just as well hire four as one if I you are going to do the paperwork and pay the insurance."  I am not ready for training and/or keeping four men busy.  I might get there but right now I am able to hire one at a time. 

I also see the need to keep crew as employees and not friends.  The inter-personal does matter, to a point.  I do not need to know/agree with details about choices made at Church, community or home.  I would not hire him If I did not think he was "worth keeping around."  I am not hiring a buddy or extending my family.  I am hiring crew.

I had some superb bosses while "growing up."  I certainly appreciate now, the experience they gave to me.  I hope I can serve some employees equally as well while growing this business.   

This is a classic challenge.  I need some advice. 

Thanks Gang.

kderby

[customsawyer]

The only advice I can give you is remember how those "superb bosses" treated you and try to follow there example.

[Kansas]

Not sure quite how you have handled things in the past, or what you know. Here are the basics.

First thing to do is get an employee manual. You can get one cheap off the internet. You can discard all the pages that don't apply to you. Make sure you follow it.  Next, leave a paper trail. If he runs an edger, show him all the do's and don'ts and safety around the machine. Make sure he signs a paper showing he knows all that. Of course, workers comp is a must. Unemployment insurance will be necessary. Getting taxes withheld and sent in regularly will be necessary. You can use a payroll service; your accountant may do that. You can just take the amounts off the forms the state and federal have. But now, you have to pay by ACH instead of just sending them a check.

Beyond that, about everything you said was spot on. Once you have all the paperwork set up, you are good to go. With one, it won't be that difficult.

[Magicman]

Random drug tests and no cellphone usage during work hours.  They can check it during their break and lunch time.  Otherwise, it stays in the truck.

[paul case]

I do not need to know/agree with details about choices made at Church, community or home. 

I think you will find that these should be criteria for your workers and not be ignored. A man's convictions will cause him to work and work well with others or NOT. PC

[Cutting Edge]

IMHO, Drug Tests First...thats weed out a few right off the bat, and some may just not come back once they hear you have a drug testing policy.  Heaven forbid, someone gets hurt, drug test at hospital.  Have to test for prescription drugs too.  Not all tests cover what people smash and snort, just the major drugs.

MM is spot on about cell phones.  Seems alot of people are attached to theirs like a baby to a pacifier.  To much of a distraction...last thing things someone needs is another safety issue round a mill.  Does the warranty cover sawdust??? :D

Mandatory PPE, and to be worn at all times, no exceptions.

Could try using a temp. employment agency.  They prescreen, drug test, interview, and sort potential people.  May cost a little more, but it gives you room to breathe on hire/fire, comp, taxes, etc.  Can find good folks in these that just wanna work.  Then hire on permanent.

[red oaks lumber]

been there had a crew of 7 not any more just myself and 1 parttime.sure we generate alot less "money" but, at the end of the month i acually have more . when i had 7 employees it took alot of work to keep the beast feed ,which in itsself causes stress and every week they all got paid and alot of times i went without if the funds werent there.
my happiness and mental wellbeing are priceless my advice to you... be double dam sure that is the path you want to go down, make for posative your whole family is 100% onboard with you, bigger more often is not always better.
good luck

[JFarmer]

I've been down that road before and that is why I operate by myself. I went through probabally 16 different hands in about 3 months. Either they are strung out on dope or just too stupid and lazy to work! It was really stressfull and seems like it kept me mad at the whole world all the time. If you decide to hire help be sure they have some common sense and no cell phones and no smoking in the building. Good luck!

[VictorH]

Not sure if you have one available but I use a Labor Service for my help in my contracting business.  They do the payroll, workmans comp. and unemployment insurance.  I actually sent them the guys I wanted and they put them on their payroll.  I pay a multiplier of their wage 1.5.  So a guy getting paid $15 an hour I pay 22.50.  Seems a little expensive but when I don't have work I don't pay and this year I have no W-2's or any other stuff to do.   ;D 

[Okrafarmer]

 smiley_fiddler

"Good help-- good help- good help--
Is so hard to find!
There's no one around when you get in a bind,
Good help is so hard to find!
I've searched the world over, and I'm losing my mind--
Good help is so hard to find.
Good help, good help, good help is so hard to find.
I've tried, and I've failed, but, oh, never mind--
Good help is so hard to find."

8)  8)  8)  8)

[Cutting Edge]

Those lyrics would go good with "Cripple Creek" ;)  You bring the fiddle, I'll pick the banjo!  ;D

[Migal]

Hay I'm a good hand  err woo'ps forgot I just bought a sawmill of my own :P liked the Labor Service thingy they got boo koo's of em here. so guess the good ole boys are hard to find  ;) ... thanks for tip.  8)

[Migal]

As for winning a Winning a argument I would have to argue on the spelling  :D as long as you argue about something you know is right and ya know ya cant teach stupid they just have learn as we did!

[kderby]

This is what  I needed to hear.  I the temp-agency route was suggested and will look into it.

I do hear the "stay simple" message and will work with that logic.  That is why I am focused on milling and drying.  I do not do any logging or secondary planer/shaper work.

One other advice I am listening to:  "Hire fast and fire faster."  I already have a tight filter.  If there is a problem I can certainly say "goodbye."

It is scary putting everthing on the line and involving young/inexperienced others.  I love the journey but not the dread.

KD   

[Kansas]

I do not need to know/agree with details about choices made at Church, community or home. 

I think you will find that these should be criteria for your workers and not be ignored. A man's convictions will cause him to work and work well with others or NOT. PC

The very worst boss I ever had was a born again christian. He treated people that did not have his mindset like crap. He ran off the best help because of it. I finally resigned in disgust. Religion, politics, and the workplace have no business mixing. Some of the hardest working people I ever knew with good morals never set foot in a church, or could care less about politics.

About drug testing. It sounds like you are only going to hire one, or maybe two. You definitely don't want to hire a hard druggie. However,if the guy goes home and smokes a few joints on the weekend, its not going to affect his work performance. Same with drinking a few beers. I think discretion is required for this reason; if he can pass a drug test, including pot, has a perfectly clean criminal record, most likely you won't be able to afford him. If you can hire locally and know the guy, that helps. Sometimes small employers have to ignore a few things to hire a good employee. They can't do things like offer health insurance nearly as easily as big employers, and everyone is in competition for employees. The employee manual will give you a probation period to fire at will, and they can't draw unemployment. You usually know by the end of that if they will be any good or not. If a problem develops later, that manual will allow you to drug test if you think hard drugs are the problem. Long as a guy comes to work and works hard and safely, does what he is told, I would focus on that more.

[crtreedude]

I have a bit of a lecture for people when they start. Number one, I pay well, and if you don't show up on time, goof off during work, or don't understand it all belongs to me and you aren't the boss, you won't be here.

It is not a democracy, I appreciate feedback from hardworking people. I don't appreciate those who wish to spend their time second guessing me, or only working enough to keep their job.

I tell people as well, it is much easier to be fired by me, than be hired by me.

Those who like what I just said, generally work out, those who look a bit sullen, won't generally speaking.

I am looking for someone who doesn't take advantage of others - first sign of selfishness, and they are out the door, and I don't care if it is against me, or someone else.

Also, no gossiping, no "jokes" at the expense of others - etc.

Because I am a good but strict boss, we have the best workers, and all the good workers want to be with us - and the vagos want to work for someone else.  :D

Oh, and if we have to lay someone off, they are the first people to be hired by others.

[Peter Drouin]

Hi Kderby, I have had as much as 15 men at one time working for me at a time. and made a lot of money. and spent a lot too.but in the long run the bull was not worth it. and I have seen the labor service thing :D dont go there. the man they send you on monday and you train for the job .on tuesday they will be a new man that will have to be train, not allways but most times a new face. so now im all a lone and love it. if I want to take a day off I do. I mean the work comes first, but I can plan for it. and I think the best part no one out side wating for me to go to work or give them a ride to work .good luck to you

[Dave VH]

I've also had a lot of employees through the years.  I'm a proud born again Christian, however I agree that ones personal faith should not be a hiring factor.  It is good to find out a little about a future emplyees home life, just for stability.  If they are more stabil outside of work, they are more likley to show up.  Inteligence, work ethic, and reliability,  these are the main things that I find important.  Anything else can be delt with.  At one time I had 15 personal emplyees, and running 60 workers hireing crews to subcontract to me.  Now I work with me and 3 others.  I make what I need to and am a lot happier now.  I get to see my family more now too.  You cant put  a price on that.

[Okrafarmer]

If you're working by yourself, you can do that, obviously, but there is a limit to what one person can do. Adding the second person is very difficult, and there is a big cross-over difficulty between being able to get something done and doing it during the transition. I never used to understand that, but I do now. Good help is hard to find, and even harder to keep. Once you know you have someone good, be sure you keep them happy.  ;)

[tomsteve]

background checks are good, too. it would suck to see ya hire someone that appears to be an awesome, trustworthy worker, only to have equipment come up missing along with the employee.
it might take ya time to weed out the lazy, dishonest ones, but eventually, you will find someone who knows the value of a job, takes pride in hard work, want to learn, and will be dependable.
i'm 44 now. it wasnt as bad when i got my 1st job out of high school, in a wood mill, but there were still a LOT of employess in and out the door in the time i worked there.

[customsawyer]

One more thing to keep in mind is that in most cases you end up working more for your employees than they do for you. What I mean by this is that you have the worry of providing work for them and all the paper work that comes with them.

[Lambee10]

I am glad someone brought up the background check.  I hired a guy that was recommended by a couple of people since he did good work.  I did not ask the question "can I trust him".  Lost many tools and the nut and bolt box was always empty.

Found out later he was charged with theft before.  too late for me, however.

[Cedarman]

I have had employees from 5 to 15 for more than 20 years.  And all that says is I have experience, nothing more.  There is only one reason to hire someone.  This is so they make you more money after all is said and done than you would make without them.  I even ask some prospective employees what the only reason I am hiring someone is.
As Kansas says, have a good employee manual.  Have them read it and sign that they have read it AND understand it.  That right there has saved me several unemployment claims.  Make sure each rule is enforced evenly.  Consistency in enforcement is important. 
Safety is very important.  PPE is a must and must be used.
Learn what OSHA considers important in your area and make sure you have as safe a work place as can reasonably be done.
When you communicate directions make sure they are clear and not ambiguous.  Saying "Cut those boards in two" won't get it.  They can be cut crosswise or lengthwise or diagonally and still conform to directions.
If you are saying "You know what I mean", then you are not giving good instructions.  Written instructions are very good, but verbal can work well.
Instruct, let them do some work, follow up to see it is correct, and so forth.

If you find yourself angry at an emplyee more than a few times, it is time to let them go. It is a good indicator that they are not doing a job to your satisfaction.  You either haven't trained them properly or they are not the person for the job. Do it by the employee manual.

This is just to add some more to what has been said.

[mikeb1079]

The very worst boss I ever had was a born again christian. He treated people that did not have his mindset like crap. He ran off the best help because of it. I finally resigned in disgust. Religion, politics, and the workplace have no business mixing. Some of the hardest working people I ever knew with good morals never set foot in a church, or could care less about politics.

About drug testing. It sounds like you are only going to hire one, or maybe two. You definitely don't want to hire a hard druggie. However,if the guy goes home and smokes a few joints on the weekend, its not going to affect his work performance. Same with drinking a few beers. I think discretion is required for this reason

i could not agree more.  thank you kansas.

[Okrafarmer]

If you find yourself angry at an emplyee more than a few times, it is time to let them go. It is a good indicator that they are not doing a job to your satisfaction.  You either haven't trained them properly or they are not the person for the job.

Not saying this is the case for you, probably isn't, but another possibility is that the boss may become angry too easily. Whenever there is an anger issue that comes up, try to think about it objectively and decide which was more unreasonable-- the cause of the anger, or the anger itself. I have had many, many bosses in the past and am glad to have one now that I am fairly compatible with. But many bosses I have worked for have been the type to get angry far too easily. It is a two-way street.

Remember, there are basically three things that cause a person to want to work for someone else-- either to start out, or to continue working.

1. Compensation. In the form of money, or sometimes other things like benefits, perks, and so on.

2. Treatment. Employees want to feel respected, needed, liked, and appreciated.

3. Satisfaction of the work itself. This is more available from some jobs than others.

It will almost always be one or more of these factors that will bring a person to you, or keep them with you. Some jobs, like sawmilling, may be so "fun" or "satisfying" that a person will put up with low pay and somewhat shoddy treatment for the ability to have a fun job. Sometimes an unpleasant job, like working in a mortuary, will pay high enough that an employee will put up with the unpleasant aspects of their work. Sometimes a personable and understanding boss or manager can make an employee love their job even if the pay is low and the job is not very pleasant. But usually it is a matter of two or more of these factors that will keep a good employee around for a long long time. Number 2, the boss's attitude toward the employee, is the one that is *probably* the easiest to improve...... And certainly the cheapest!   ;)