Hey folks-
I'm new here, just registered! I live on a farm that was my wife's family's farm. Now it's owned by a landowner; the farm space is rented by a farmer up the road from us, and we pay rent to him. When my in-laws still lived here, my father in-law installed an OWB, and got most of his wood from the excavating company he worked for. After they moved, our neighbor, who also worked for that company, was able to get us substantial amounts of wood in addition to cutting dead fall from a stand of trees on the property. He moved, too.
So, last winter I went out to the stand and cut down about 10 trees, mostly walnut, and that's gotten us through most of this winter. At the end of last winter, I went out and cut down a few more, and started cutting them into rounds and left them there to get later in anticipation for the winter we're experiencing now, as well as next winter. The farmer never told me to stop, and we've never met the landowner, so I figured I was in the clear. Well, back in November or so, I noticed orange paint dots had popped up on most of the trees in our stand- dangit.
They've started cutting, and what I want to know is- will the logger collect all of the wood I've cut into rounds? I know they'll leave behind the tops of the trees which will probably yield a fair amount for me to pick from when they're done, but will the rounds be any good to them, or will they (hopefully) leave them behind? They're 18" in length and ranging from a foot or two in diameter to approaching three feet.
I seriously doubt that they will take the rounds unless they desperately need firewood at home.
beemickdee,welcome to the forum. I don't see what they would want them for in stove wood lengths.
Welcome to the Forestry Forum. :)
As the others have posted, your rounds should be safe.
Oh my goodness. Walnut logs are going for $2.00 to $2.50 bdft in this area. If you where cutting down my walnut trees to make firewood, I would be quite upset.
One walnut tree with 24" diam and 33' of trunk would be worth about $900.
You will have lots of smaller limbs to cut up and burn.
Welcome from here too.
Have they put a "cease and desist" order on you cutting any more trees for firewood?
Walnut, to me, is not very good firewood. ;)
I realize now that walnut is a.) worth a good bit of money and b.) burns quickly and isn't the greatest firewood. You live and you learn, ya know (I'm a young guy from the suburbs (29) so farm life has been an experience).
The trees I'm concerned with that I've started cutting into rounds are what I believe are locust, mostly probably about 1.5-2' in diameter and maybe 30' tall. The one I'm most concerned about is what I think is a very large oak of some variety (clearly I need to study species identification more) that I could probably get about 35 rounds out of, at about 3' diameter- I reckon I could get about a month's worth of firewood out of this sucker. I've already cut it into four sections, some of which I've already rounded out.
I have not gotten a cease and desist, but I did introduce myself to the logger the other day and he said they'll be taking all of the marked trees, and "possibly" clear cutting- for sawboard and pulp. I mentioned that I'd cut a few down last winter (long before any trees were marked) and he said that the deal was he could take whatever was usable. So there's that. I'm just trying to find out if what I rounded out will be gone when they're done.
Like the others said the wood you have already cut is probably quite safe - but personally I would not drop another tree until I spoke with the land owner, especially the oak you have your eye on. Depending on the laws of the state you live in technically you could be committing timber theft. Talk with the logger and see if he would be willing to set aside a few pulp / junk trees for you to use as firewood. Broken pieces, rejects, rot, that they pile off the side of the landing would all be there for you.
Just imagine if your land owner never spoke with you and took food out of your freezer when he was hungry - and since you never told him to stop he figured he was in the clear - how would you react to that?
This is not one of those situations when it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. If one of our tenants was cutting down trees and never asked they would be out the door and paying me back for sure, now if they asked ahead of time I would point them in the direction of what I wanted removed and would be happy for it.
Quote from: Southside logger on January 13, 2014, 10:29:46 PM
Like the others said the wood you have already cut is probably quite safe - but personally I would not drop another tree until I spoke with the land owner, especially the oak you have your eye on. Depending on the laws of the state you live in technically you could be committing timber theft. Talk with the logger and see if he would be willing to set aside a few pulp / junk trees for you to use as firewood. Broken pieces, rejects, rot, that they pile off the side of the landing would all be there for you.
Just imagine if your land owner never spoke with you and took food out of your freezer when he was hungry - and since you never told him to stop he figured he was in the clear - how would you react to that?
This is not one of those situations when it is better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission. If one of our tenants was cutting down trees and never asked they would be out the door and paying me back for sure, now if they asked ahead of time I would point them in the direction of what I wanted removed and would be happy for it.
This has all crossed my mind :-\
I'm definitely not looking to cut any more trees down- I'm just trying to get the most of what I cut down before they marked trees. I'm starting to think I probably shouldn't even continue cutting the stuff I've put on the ground until they're done and I can see what's left.
Yeah, you need to clear that with the land owner, chances are they don't care, but if they do...
The loggers have better and bigger things to worry about then a little pile of firewood, and since you talked to the guy the will probably leave it mostly alone, it may not be in the same location, and it may not be neatly stacked, but it should all be there.
Unless they come in with a chipping crew, there should be gobs of tops and culls that make excellent firewood, probably more then a few years worth.
And I would leave that large oak alone until after the loggers have gone.
Yea I think I'll leave the oak alone and just hope they leave it since I've cut into it a bit.
The logger did say there'd be a lot left behind; he didn't say anything about a chipper, but who knows what the landowner has in mind. The only thing I know about the landowner is that he's part of a family that owns a big concrete business and owns lots of land in our area. My understanding is the land we sit on is more or less being used as a trust fund for his grandkids. I certainly don't want to end up with concrete shoes at the bottom of a pond as a result of this. I've got a wife and 1.5 kids.
He might leave you more than you need now that you have let him know.
That would be great. That's kinda what I was hoping to accomplish by speaking to him. Mom always said I have the gift of gab, haha.
Bring them a Pizza around lunchtime. :D
The landowner is getting paid out of what the loggers take away and sell. So anything you take away is money out of the logger's and landowner's pocket.
It's no different than a farmer getting a crop harvested by a contractor and if you go in ahead of time and take some of the apples, corn, etc. home with you, then it's money out their pocket.
Quote from: Mooseherder on January 13, 2014, 10:59:09 PM
Bring them a Pizza around lunchtime. :D
That's a really good idea, actually. Maybe I'll have my wife whip up a batch of cookies for them or something. My job makes it so I'm not at home during lunch most days. Someone of the female persuasion bearing goodies may convince them to leave behind a lot more than I could.
I worked for a deck company in college, and I remember how much we appreciated the clients who would buy us lunch, and sometimes even beer, haha.
Thanks for the advice, fellas. I feel less uneasy now, and I think I'm just gonna keep myself out of the woods and hope they leave behind everything I cut down, even if it's not fully rounded out.
Any idea what the chances are that they take the stuff I didn't start rounding out for pulp?
Quoterounding out
What do you mean by "rounding out" ? I'm gathering that it is bucking the logs to your firewood length.
If the material is in 8' lengths of longer, I'd suspect they will remove it. But firewood lengths, then I don't think they will mess with it. May push them aside so they don't have to drive over them.
Yea, I mean bucking. Guess I don't know my lingo that well. ::)
Some are just more picky than others. :(
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, beemickdee. :)
Loggers like cookies. Chocolate chip oatmeal cookies will be scarfed up unless you give them to the boss and in order to keep them for himself, he hides them from the crew. That has been known to happen and may make for a surly, mutinous crew if they find out. ;)
I have rewarded loggers with cookies for pulling my pickup out of a ditch, or for doing an excellent job of logging. They can become spoiled though.
I need to speak with my forester about this cookie deal........I feel a bit cheated lol
When the logger gets finished cutting on my property, I give the crew some rib eye steaks :D. Nothing wrong with cookies, though :).
Not to be a jerk, but if you don't have permission you're stealing someone's natural resources. If it was my land I would be extremely peeved.
theCH
Seems the OP is handling the situation just fine.
Quoteand I think I'm just gonna keep myself out of the woods
Quote from: beenthere on January 16, 2014, 12:25:29 AM
theCH
Seems the OP is handling the situation just fine.
Quoteand I think I'm just gonna keep myself out of the woods
Bit of a paraphrase there to slant the quote to make your point, but he actually posted:
Thanks for the advice, fellas. I feel less uneasy now, and I think I'm just gonna keep myself out of the woods and hope they leave behind everything I cut down, even if it's not fully rounded out.
Any idea what the chances are that they take the stuff I didn't start rounding out for pulp
Which reads to me I hope they don't take the stuff I already cut up and I hope they leave me some more stuff to cut up because when the loggers are gone I'm going to get some more firewood.
As long as you guys are cool with it though I'll just move on... I'm not cool with it at all.
I agree thechknhwk he has been stealing somebody elses timber, and before he cuts/rounds up/takes another stick of firewood he needs to get a hold of the landowner and get permission for what he is doing.
I've got to agree with thechknhwk hopfully a missunderstanding on beemickdee's part about cutting wood on property that was not his to cut doesnt turn into timber theft and trespassing.
I now if i was cutting that tract id be held respnsible for every tree i cut and if it looks like ive cut an extra few trees that i dident i m still expected to pay for them.
Ask permisson first instead of getting a lawsuit after
That's my thoughts not yours
Just a thought along those lines. The OP mentioned orange dots on the trees, so there is a forester involved, and I would suspect the forester would make note of the fresh walnut stumps and the big oak that is partway sawn through, and this info will be passed along as the forester does not want to have to account for where the money went for those trees nor does the logger.
Maybe nobody will make an issue out of it but I would fear that at some point the landowner may want to know what happened to those trees, perhaps he would ask the farmer first, who will deny taking them, perhaps it ends there, or perhaps it results in a timber theft investigation.
If it were me I think I would be approaching the farmer first hat in hand explaining what I had done and go from there, at least he has a relationship with the landowner and may be able to come to a reasonable resolution, rather than letting it fester into a bigger mess than it needs to be when the logger, forester, and farmer are pointing fingers at each other and tempers are flaring.
When I spoke with the logger (this is clearly a one-man operation, he's the only guy I've seen working- the only equipment on the site is a p/u truck, a grapple skidder, and a crane attached to a flatbed, sorry I don't know what this machine is called) and mentioned the trees I had cut down last year and asked if he'd noticed those, he simply said "Well, the deal was I could take whatever is usable." Keep in mind, these were cut down long before the rest of the trees were marked. I like to think that if there were a problem, he would have mentioned it then; there's no way the trees were marked without someone making note of the already-felled ones.
I suppose I should note that these woods are about 1/4 mile away from our house, straight across the field. The guy who lived on the other side of our house (the neighbor I mentioned in the OP; our house is divided in two) was a coworker of my father in-law's before my in-laws moved; he lived there before we moved in. When he still lived next door, he was sort of "in charge" of wood duties. When we didn't have wood from the excavating company, he and I would go out to these woods and cut up deadfall. So, when I started cutting trees (after our wood-connected neighbor had moved and I was left with the responsibility of finding wood), that was the assumption I was under. My grandfather in-law, who used to farm the land and knows the landowner (he's the one who sold it to him!), even helped me pull what I've been burning this year out of the woods with a tractor. So, I was fat, dumb, and happy in my ignorance of these situations, thinking it was no big deal if I cut a few trees down since, hey, we had been going out there anyway. So, this wasn't just a situation where I was like "Hey, I need wood---> here are some trees--->MINE," I had taken wood out of there under someone else's lead before.
But yea, I'm just keeping my butt out of those woods, and since the logger did say there'd be plenty for me to take from afterward, I'm just going to run with that, and maybe what I cut into will still be there. I've learned a lot from reading this forum and doing some other research on logging. There's much more involved than I anticipated! I know that last comment makes me sound wide-eyed and ignorant, but really, I had no idea.
Before you take another stick you need to find the landowner and meet with him/her directly and get permission to acquire the firewood preferable in writing.
If not then you are committing a crime and stealing from somebody. If they wanted to get picky you could end up paying double or triple stumpage on all the trees you have cut.
Would it be ok for me to come cut down trees in your yard? After all I know a guy who used to have permission to cut trees there.
You need to find the landowner, the logger can tell you anything he wants. When it comes down to it he doesnt own the product on it. Most likely when he pulls out there will be more wood then you could use before it starts to rot. If you talk to the landowner he/she probably wont have a problem with you going in there picking up slash. If you dont talk to them and they catch you, it may be a different story. What you were doing before was timber theft, in NH it's not taken to lightly. I believe the fine here is up to 10x the market value of wood taken. Good luck
When the logging is done, you will have plenty of firewood to choose from and it will already be on the ground for you. It will be much easier and safer.
Might be a good idea to get some pics of what you have cut and before during and after harvest pics. I believe 35mm are legal and digital not so much,but you would have something. An email address for the landowner could be beneficial as well so that you would have it in writing as to what and when information is exchanged plus his response. Sometimes a little documentation will keep your canoe afloat in rough water. ;D
So, an update on my situation:
It's been, what, a month since I first posted here? Anyway, the logger is just about done. Week before last, I was desperate for wood, so I went out to a spot where they were done cutting and started picking up some locust slash. Logger was working maybe 500 feet away, didn't seem to care that I was there.
The logger is still working, and this past weekend (when he wasn't there), a friend of mine drove by the woods in question, and said he saw a pickup truck and some guys removing wood. The next day, I drove by, and there were a few pickups and about eight guys removing large quantities of wood from one of the windbreaks; mostly big logs left behind, including the big oak I mentioned! I went to the store, came back, and the trucks were gone, but there were a couple of different guys in a different spot from the big group that had been around, loading up some small stuff into an SUV. I told them who I was and that I lived at "the farm over there," and talked to them to see if they were with the big group of guys that was there, they said no, that they knew the logger and he said they could take wood, as long as it wasn't any of the trees he'd dragged toward the landing. They said they didn't think those guys were "with" the logger and that they were probably looking to sell what they were gathering, and that if they were me, they'd get out here with a saw and take what I could before those guys came back. So, I called up a couple of friends, and that's what I did. Those guys had left behind about a 15 ft. section of that big oak I was talking about, so at least I got that.
So, sounds like the logger gave the "OK" to any Tom, Dick, or Harry who came by to take whatever. He's got bigger things to worry about anyway; yesterday he knocked down a power line and pole, ha. I was really worrying about nothing, there's going to be plenty of perfectly good firewood for me to take; like some of you guys said, probably more than I could ever burn. Since then we've had a couple of people stop by at the farm asking if there was wood for sale…of course, we said no, ha.
Good luck to you.
Something doesn't sound quite right about what is going on. But it is your decision.
First, I'd have made contact with the logger who was only 500' away and talked to him to know what he did and didn't care about. Not "assume".
Second, I'd have tried to make contact with the landowner rather than help myself to his wood thinking it was "free".
Third, I wouldn't take the word of others' helping themselves to wood that doesn't belong to them either. ;)
Seems much better to stay above board here, as you may have (or may not have) more right to this wood than the others.
Anyway, good luck to you.
Yea, that whole stealing TV's in a riot makes it OK too. I just hope you and your good buddies don't show up on any ground I own or work on.
Why didn't you talk with the landowner and logger?
If I saw someone taking wood off my wood lots. They would know I own it. boxingsmiley I just had a piece cut a little and I know there's slash up there , and maybe a top or two. If someone asks for it maybe they could have it, but then I would have to think if they get hurt, they will sue me so the wood will stay.
I thought for a while about how to describe my opinion about what the OP is choosing to do. I've decided that short of not saying anything at all it is clear you are making a series of very bad selfish decisions.
John
Seems like you keep digging that hole deeper and deeper, I agree with the others it is stealing plain and simple. If I were the landowner I would be very unhappy and you might be looking for a new home, never assume it is OK to take something that doesn't belong to you, don't mean to be so harsh, that's just the way I was raised!
As a timberland owner and forester I would probably be the first to grant somebody permission to gather firewood as long as I didn't need it and they weren't cutting any standing live timber. Or I would go out of my way to find a logging job in the area that has some tops or something laying around that they would be happy to donate.
If I found somebody taking it without permission they would be getting raked over the coals for larceny, timber theft, trespassing and anything else can stick.
Quote from: chevytaHOE5674 on February 07, 2014, 06:36:19 PM
As a timberland owner and forester I would probably be the first to grant somebody permission to gather firewood as long as I didn't need it and they weren't cutting any standing live timber. Or I would go out of my way to find a logging job in the area that has some tops or something laying around that they would be happy to donate.
If I found somebody taking it without permission they would be getting raked over the coals for larceny, timber theft, trespassing and anything else can stick.
Well said
Boy, tough crowd. ::)
Look, I know to some of you guys this situation sounds terrible, but our living situation is difficult to describe, though I'll try. When my wife's grandfather and father sold the farm to the landowner (i.e. the guy who owns the woods in question now), part of the deal was that someone from my wife's family could live here indefinitely- those someone(s) being my grandfather in-law, who farmed the land, obviously, and my immediate in-laws. They've all since moved, and now we live here. When my in-laws lived here, they cut from these woods before and after the farm was sold. The landowner even helped pay for the OWB attached to the farm. Before they sold the farm, the in-laws heated the place with bank-breaking oil/home diesel. I should note that what I refer to as "the woods" is really a few overgrown windbreaks.
We pay rent to a farmer, and he in turn rents the farm, minus the house, from the landowner. The farmer has never cared about what we do here as long as we don't get in the way of his operation. The landowner has never shown his face around here- as far as he's concerned, this land is sitting next to a recently developed area, and he's just waiting for the right time to sell the whole thing to a developer. In 10 years, this farm will be a Costco, or something. That's what this landowner does (he owns half of this town)- buys up land, and sells it. I guarantee you all he cares about is that he gets his cut of what the logger makes on the timber- he doesn't care about what's left behind on the ground to rot.
I did speak with the logger from the get-go, as I noted in my original post, and he said there'd be plenty left behind to take. What I took most recently was from a spot where he had already cut all of the usable timber and hauled it to the landing. Don't you think that if he had a problem with me taking slash from that spot while he was working, he would have said something? He probably said nothing to me because we spoke previously.
I even consulted my father in-law about this situation, and he said something to the effect of "I'd be out there acting like I own the place so nobody else feels comfortable taking everything."
Someone said I've made some "selfish" decisions. I'm just trying to keep my family warm, man. Think about it from my perspective- we've cut from here years, I talk to the logger and am patiently waiting for him to finish up and leave, meanwhile, I just get to watch some random dudes ransack the place when the logger's not looking? I'm the one who has to live here and make do, not those guys.
Anyway, sorry if I've ruffled feathers. I'm a law-abiding citizen, I promise. I just came here trying to get info on logging operations so I'd know what to expect when they were done, not to anger anybody.
You say you are a law-abiding citizen but the only person you refuse to talk to is the owner of the property. You have no idea of what the contract between the owner and the logger includes. If the logger only paid, for example, for logs down to 10" diameter he has no legal right to harvest anything smaller nor can he give you permission to take it for yourself. Telling you there would be plenty left after he was done meant nothing legally and simply said he had no interest or obligation in regards to it. In my opinion you are trying to justify theft by "past practices" and "this guy has more money than he needs". On my land you would be prosecuted!
To make this right is simple.Contact the LANDOWNER,not the guy logging there,not the farmer,not your father in law.The guy who owns the land is the only one who can legally give you permission to remove wood from his land.Many times over the years I've had people ask to cut up tops where we were logging I've always said yes,but they have to have the courtesy to ask.If I saw them cutting standing timber on our land I'd be wild.
We all have our challenges in life, and there have been times I did not have money to pay the electric bill or other essentials - never, never, did I go and take something that clearly belonged to another and justify it by asking others to "see it my way". We own land, and have sold land that I busted my a$$ to own, do you think it would be OK if I went and took wood off any of that property? Either you are a compulsive liar who has convinced himself that this is OK, or this is a bogus post from the beginning, either way you will not find any compassion or understanding from others who actually work hard and earn what is theirs. Seems odd you will not answer the question as to why you refuse to ask the land owner for permission to take his wood.
Why, if the landowner didn't care about our family taking deadfall, etc. for years before when there were hundreds and hundreds of standing trees of value, would he suddenly care after a logger has come through and taken all of the valuable timber?
I have not contacted the landowner because on advice from those who lived here before me and have dealt with him, have recommended that I essentially not bother, and that he has more important things to worry about than me collecting sticks.
But, thank you for insinuating that I'm either a liar, making all of this up, or am trepidacious about contacting the landowner for whatever reason, and implying that I'm lazy, or worse, because it sticks in your craw that I've dared to collect wood from a spot of land I live on that others are taking from freely right in front of me after everything of monetary value has been harvested.
I can see I've offended quite a few of you, so I'll bow out. I've explained the situation as best I could, and thought I conveyed that it's a fairly abnormal one as far as our relationship with the landowner, but apparently that's not translating well to some.
Sorry to have bothered you.
beemickdee
Sounds like you are on the safe ground that you thought you were in the beginning.
Just that the way you presented your activity and how you said you were going about collecting wood made it sound a bit on the sneaky side, and I don't see that happening.
So hang tight, and don't let the crowd give you a hard time. I really think most comments were made to keep you out of trouble, not to imply that you were in trouble.
Now, take care of your family and stay warm (and talk to as many around you that you can so someone else doesn't march in a take "your" wood. ;)
What your grandfather, friend, neighbor, cousin, uncle, etc did in the past means NOTHING. For all you know they had permission, and if they didn't they were STEALING the same as you are.
If all those other guys robbed a bank would you be there to help them out?
Ever think that maybe the neighbors said to "essentially not bother" the landowner because in fact he doesn't want people "collecting sticks" and has told them NO in the past. So they figure that if he doesn't know then they must not care...
WOW!!! This has to be a bogus post. Or the OP is completely oblivious to normal social mores.
I have had hard times in life. Never mind this is going nowhere I have no further input that is any more concise than what has already been said.
Has to be a bogus post.
Any one want to go back to cookies cause I like chocolate chip with sliced almonds
I got a report to moderator saying they thought people were being to hard on a new poster. I've read all the posts and formed my opinion as well. I have zero problems with this topic and feel the members of the forum and the profession responded appropriately. I'm just glad I am not the absentee landowner.
The OP's attitude about the whole thing is what we see up here all the time. But it gets even worst then just wood. We also see garbage dumping, and the same attitude. Just because grand dad dumped his garbage in the woods on someone the son and grandson see no wrong, even with a No Dumping sign posted in plain sight. Gat begats gat. No amount of double talk will ever right it. No wonder a lot of us are not alright with this.
Don't know if anyone has brought up the liability factor. But surely, at the very least, written permission should be required before any trespass or activity on the property is committed.[PERIOD]
A bogus post? Why, if I were going to troll an internet forum, and dream up a lengthy scenario to anger people, would I come to a FORESTRY FORUM, of all places? "Hmm, where I can get the highest volume of irrationally angry, stupid posts from people for my own entertainment just by making up a BS story. I know, a forum full of LOGGERS!" Right. Pretty much all of these responses have been completely logical and designed to be helpful. HAHA, GOTCHA, OH MAN, THAT WAS A GOOD ONE!
Seems to me like beenthere is the only one who is posting and understanding the situation fully. So, thanks beenthere, I'm pretty sure I'll be fine, too. Sorry if this has come off as me being sneaky, though.
I get some of you guys' concern, but really, our living arrangement truly is odd, honest. Maybe I'll contact him, I dunno. But, again, my in-laws, who know the man and sold him the farm, said not to bother. I know that means nothing to some of you, but there it is.
Anyway...cookies, yea. My wife makes these oatmeal/white chocolate/pomegranate things that are amazing.
Some of you guys sure do love to join in and jump on a young adult making decisions that don't effect us at all. He came here and asked some questions, some of us gave valuable answers and some suggestions. There is no need for everyone to jump in and beat a dead horse. He sees it one way, most of you see it another way, fine.
I wouldn't handle it the way he does it, but I sure wouldn't jump on him for doing it either like some of you. Let's just agree to disagree and let this post fall down the line of posts that have run it's course. Good luck to the young man, now can we get back to positive logging topics and not lectures?
Yep, thanks for the advice, all. Maybe I'll see you around the firewood and chainsaws sections.
Quote from: beemickdee on January 13, 2014, 09:25:59 PM
So, last winter I went out to the stand and cut down about 10 trees, mostly walnut, and that's gotten us through most of this winter. At the end of last winter, I went out and cut down a few more, and started cutting them into rounds and left them there to get later in anticipation for the winter we're experiencing now, as well as next winter. The farmer never told me to stop, and we've never met the landowner, so I figured I was in the clear.
Those acts alone qualify you for a felony conviction for theft and tens of thousands of dollars in fines and restitution. And just because you have not yet been fitted for an orange jumpsuit does not mean you are in the clear.
I've always believed a person should not ask a question if they are not ready to accept any answer they get. But beemickdee seems to blow off any response he does not like that is opposed to what he is doing. So ignore the good advice you have been given at you own peril. It's your future and family you have put at risk.
Quote from: Kemper on February 08, 2014, 07:45:43 AM
Some of you guys sure do love to join in and jump on a young adult making decisions that don't effect us at all.
Good luck to the young man, now can we get back to positive logging topics and not lectures?
Very little of the advice I have offered on this forum over many years will effect me in any way. But criticism of those offering the advice, good or bad is never welcome.
I guess I can call the story I'm going to tell you a cautionary tale. It's a true story and a story I feel relates to this topic very closely. It is why I take the position on the topic that I do, and why I don't think the other posters are being too harsh at all, but rather being more like "dutch uncles" ;). I never thought the post was bogus as stated because I sort of lived it 30 some odd years ago.
Many years ago, more than 30, I was a young man working in the woods one summer when the sawmill was shut down for lack of orders. I was working with a guy that was several years older than me. I guess I was around 19 and he was near 30. Tammy and I went over to his home one Sunday to visit. Pat asked me if I wanted to go for a ride that fine early spring day to check on his firewood cutting spot. I said sure. Tammy stayed to visit with Pat's wife.
Pat lived on a short dead end road. We pulled out of his driveway and drove back to the corner. We stopped and he pointed to the trail that went straight across the road. To one side of the trail was wooded right up to the trail edge, to the other side, it was a rolling field to an older but well kept farm. Farm house, barn, out building. They were probably 200 yards down the road. Pat explained to me he had been cutting firewood on the flood farm for years, as his dad did. He said a couple years before, Farmer Flood passed away, but since he had cut wood there for so long, the farmers family knew him, so he just retained the rights, even though they all lived down state and mrs flood had been moved to a nursing home. "Cool" I think I must have said. Firewood right close to go cut.
So, we pulled across old U.S. 27 onto the field trail and headed down the wood line to the back part of the field to turn into where Pat was wanting to cut wood when the weather got better. About half way back, we found the frost must had just went out of the trail, and Pat's 4 wheel drive chevy sunk. Stuck bad. So, Pat says, no problem, I'll go get Farmer Flood's tractor and we'll pull it out. He always let us use it. So, Pat goes and gets the tractor out of one of the out buildings, goes down the drive, down the road, and back up the field trail that we initially came in on. When he got up to the truck, his plan was to swing out into the field, turn around, and back up to the truck and pull it out. As soon as he pulled off the trail and into the field, the tractor sunk to the back axle. What a fix eh?
So, Pat thought about it and said, "I know, we'll go to the woods and get the skidder and drive it over and pull it out. The job we were on was only about 5 miles away. So, here I am, just a kid really, with my work companion who I thought knew everything because he was 30 and a had family. A wide and 3 little daughters. We walk back to his house and take my truck to the woods. Remember now, both Pat and I work for someone else, but Pat was kinda the unofficial foreman in the woods. Pat fires up the skidder and away we go, me following him with my truck. When we get back to floods, I pulled my truck off along the road and walk in as Pat backs the skidder down the trail. We first hook up the skidder to the tractor. I was not a farm kid, and never drove a tractor, so Pat got on it, and I got in the skidder. That tractor was in good. I started "wagging" the skidder to try and get some traction in the mud that I was now making with the skidder trying to pull out the tractor.
This is when as I am looking out the back of the skidder towards Pat, I see someone walking briskly across the field from the farm, and notice there is a newer looking nice truck sitting in the drive now. You could see the agitation in every step the guy made. When he got there, and I don't remember everything that was said now, the "fit hit the shan". Turns out, this was Mr. Flood's son. The real owner of the farm now. He had not been there in two years, and had come up to visit the farm on this fine early spring day.
The real owner knew nothing about Pat's arrangement with his departed dad. He knew nothing of Pat. Pat had simply put in his own mind that he had been doing this, his dad had been doing this, and it was just okay to do it.
Luckily that day, Pat did stay honest and not implicate me into this other than I was there unknowingly. I had to explain to the police my part in this, and was let go. Pat on the other hand took a ride. The land owner at first was taking a hardline. Trespassing, destruction of property and vandalism, timber theft, and theft of the tractor that was stuck in the mud. That day I learned a lot. The landowner eventually dropped all charges against pat after talking with his family that did know pat, but the damage was done. Pat never cut there again, but the worst part was he lost his job for using the skidder. I did not lose my job, but I could have for being along for the ride.
Looking back, Pat was no different than beemickdee here. In fact, at the time, I was also, no different than beemickdee for just thinking because Pat said it was alright, that it must be alright.
I have stayed quiet on this but it does bring to mind a recent post on tractor by net. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/300799-stopping-snowmobile-without-injury.html.
It concerns people riding snowmobiles across someones land without permission. Some folks say it is completely okay. Others say not. They quote various state or county laws. Everyone has an opinion but mine is if someone wants to access my land for anything that is not a matter of life or death then they should have to have permission. Posted or not.
Quote from: luvmexfood on February 08, 2014, 05:49:44 PM
I have stayed quiet on this but it does bring to mind a recent post on tractor by net. http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/300799-stopping-snowmobile-without-injury.html.
It concerns people riding snowmobiles across someones land without permission. Some folks say it is completely okay. Others say not. They quote various state or county laws. Everyone has an opinion but mine is if someone wants to access my land for anything that is not a matter of life or death then they should have to have permission. Posted or not.
Wow! I can't believe I read that entire thread, it just kinda sucks you in. :D
It's amazing how many don't think anything about using another's private property as if it were their own. Odds are that the users are generally not property owners themselves.
Just a lack of respect is all. :D
I'd like to respectfully ask opinions on the situation I'm in.
I work for an 85,000 acre ranch (80,000 deeded). We had a fire summer before last and lost 34,000 acres, hence me buying a mill.
The boss here has 100% control of the ranch and everything that goes on here and has given me permission to take any dead timber, then also given me permission to take live juniper at my request.
The owner comes around twice a year and knows I have a mill, but nothing has ever been discussed concerning me taking trees. I make a point of not discussing more that I need to with the owner, feeling that's the bosses job and I don't believe in stepping on toes.
Bottom line is that I've never discussed it with the owner.
What's everyone's opinion?
Allan
Express your concerns to the boss and go from there. Does your boss have full consent from the owner on how the land and it's resources are used?
Assuming the "boss" (manager?) has the authority to give you permission to harvest the trees this should be OK.
The owner is aware you have a mill, and are salvaging some logs?
The only question is how much authority the "boss" has, but if the owner only shows up every 6 months then it sounds like the manager is pretty much responsible for the day to day running of the place. And a few salvage logs for a hobby sawmill is probably "small potatoes"
Like Lee suggests. You can talk to your boss, and just clarify that everything is OK and above board. But in a large operation like that a manager may have quite a lot of say in the day to day operations.
Ian
If your boss has 100% authority then you're ok. It's pretty common on large ranches for the Forman to have authority over things like this. Way different than renting a house off of a farmer that's renting a farm from a guy that bought land from your in-laws ancestors. :D
I was told one time that a farm lease, through a government agency like Farm Credit or something, on cultivated land did not give rights to the timber. Yet people are still cutting timber off these leases. This wasn't something I heard through the grape vine, but from a government agent working for the Dept of Agriculture. The first thing someone seems to do on farms around here is head to the woods and cut it all down to pay the bills. So there is a culture behind it, so to speak.
Quote from: SwampDonkey on February 09, 2014, 03:43:18 AM
I was told one time that a farm lease, through a government agency like Farm Credit or something, on cultivated land did not give rights to the timber.
I strongly doubt there is any truth to that. First of all, I'm not sure what Farm Credit you are refering to, but it is not a government agency. The old farm credit system goes by various names in different areas but they are not in any way a government agency.
The current government credit agency operates under the Farm Service Agency (FSA), farm credit team name. But they do not, under any circumstances I know, have authority to or actually write leases. Any leases must be written by the borrower. Plus the FSA as a operating rule , they call them CFR's, does not deal with people that are leasing things.
And the other farm credit system that only obtains their funding thru government backed securities, also does not directly write leases.
Trees are a crop just as any other. If you are expected to make the payments selling the hay and corn why not the timber? As a buyer I have never seen any of these restrictions unless it was from a private seller who was financing the farm.
Thanks for the replies.
After thinking on it I believe I'm covered and just got to worrying after reading this entire thread last night when I was tired, but plan to talk with the boss anyway.
Allan
There are certainly consequences for all actions. Some good ,some bad. I think they call this life. As my mom always said " Live and learn my son " I am still learning and sometimes the hard way being of the stubborn farmer type.
David l
Here's a similar story from a land owner. I live on a 25 acre farm with enough woods to heat our house. 17 years ago we bought the 50 acre farm bordering us picking up another 15 acres of woods and I sold timber the first year. I gave a neighbor permission to cut dead and down wood in a section near his house and for 5 years everything was fine until I saw a truck and 2 guys I didn't recognize cutting there. When I asked what was going on they said the neighbor gave them permission, I told them to get out and then went and told the neighbor to stay out. He has apologized several times but you don't get to pass on permission, only the owner can. He has lost cutting rights on my land.
The reason you caught them is you were vigilant. From the absentee standpoint, the owner must make his presence known in one way or another. Post your property, keep fresh signs and paint along your boundaries. Let it be known, especially around hunting seasons, of your intent to keep your property private or only trespass by written permission.
It is clear to me of the original poster of this thread is not informed of the owner's true intentions. The owner may be too busy, too occupied, and is not being responsible as a Landlord. Unfortunately, sooner or later, this leads to unpleasant tidings. :o
Gary I was talking about the Farm Credit here in Canada. It's a crown corporation, which is run my the federal government. It's accountable to Parliament through the Minister of Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. And for that matter they will also buy up bank debt concerning any bad debt on farms and take it over.
But, from my observations as to wood harvesting on financed farms I would have to agree with you guys the wood harvesting was never stopped. And at the time I told the guy he didn't know what he thought he knew. Just running it by everyone here. There is a website for the FCC but I doubt you'd find any details on do's and don'ts until you financed a farm.
What got under my skin with this post was how close it hit to home. I purchased a 220+ AC chunk of land a number of years back, that had good timber on it and I planned to pay for it by harvesting some of that timber. The property had been for sale for years, and when I finally got the the deal done it cost me way more than it was supposed to with the legal fees as there were about a dozen heirs that had to be tracked down and the deed was messed up along the way, coupled with an "imperfected" section right of way that benefited the land, it had been used for years by the previous owners but was not legally recorded, that was no big deal as I owned abutting land. Well a couple months later I come across a guy on the land cutting firewood, it is the guy who owns the land the "unrecorded" section of the right of way belongs to - you know, the guy who would not let me cross his land to access mine. He tells me he has the right to cut wood there as he has done so for years, claims he was the "care taker" for the previous owner. He even went so far as to tell me he knew I now owned it. Had I not managed to somehow keep my cool I would have gone to jail that day, I made him empty out the wood from his truck on the spot and followed him to the property line. I mailed him a no trespass notice certified mail the next day, and posted the land about every 10 feet. Funny thing is had he asked me ahead of time I would have told him to take all the dead and down wood he wanted, probably would have even skidded some to the landing for him.
Just ask ahead of time, one never knows if there is sentimental significance, or otherwise to what others own, even when it seems to be waste. Heck, even manure has economic value to it to a farmer.
After reading all the post Ive always been a little paranoid about he said she said. So Ive always made a point to talk with the true landowner rather then take a so called word [I done it for years no problems ] Buying timber where wood lots but up against each other I always try to talk with the ajoining property ower so there aware when they see equipment or hear saws that Iam working in a ajoining woods.
Hey again fellas-
Looks like I got quite the thread going here! Conversation is always good, IMO.
Here's an update:
Logger removed his equipment about three weeks ago, and finally came by last week and hauled off the big hunks by the landing and a few large unusable trunks that were scattered through the area.
While cutting up tops, etc., there've been a handful of other guys gathering wood, including a guy from the logging company who's taken a few pickup loads for himself. Now, I've gathered a pretty substantial pile of excellent wood for next year for myself (still not done, you guys were right, there's so much left behind it's inevitable some of it will go to rot), but now that the logger has packed up and left, I can't keep guys away from my doorstep asking about taking/buying wood. At least three came knocking last week alone.
The price of oil for one and an ever lasting winter this year for two. ;D Anyone still burning oil to heat must be rich.
Still can't see where anyone asked the landowner about taking the firewood. I suppose after the buzzards have picked a carcass clean it's too late to worry about who's cow it was.
The landowner would be the one paying the bills when the hospital asks where the injury happened.
Too bad you didn't ask him if you could take his property.
I guess if it were me I would of gone to the land owner (with the wife's excellent cookies ) and introduced myself as so and so's son in law. You could of offered to bring him a few cords of wood. At this point you could explain about all the traffic in and out of the woodlot. Then if he gave you sole permission in writting to take the wood you could of posted the area where all the wood was and had plenty for your self and probable enough to sell.
Seems like lots of people are hurting for wood what ever the reason. We state on our contract that no one be on the property until we are finished. I don't like working in sight of the road people stopping by all the time asking and wondering. Around here sueing people is the norm even if it's their fault so no people on the job no problems. We love helping people out and do quite often but not on the job site.
Quote from: windy hill farm on March 24, 2014, 03:53:54 PM
I guess if it were me I would of gone to the land owner (with the wife's excellent cookies ) and introduced myself as so and so's son in law. You could of offered to bring him a few cords of wood. At this point you could explain about all the traffic in and out of the woodlot. Then if he gave you sole permission in writting to take the wood you could of posted the area where all the wood was and had plenty for your self and probable enough to sell.
Asked father in-law about this, actually, because I did take to heart what a lot of the guys on here said. He knows the landowner, and said don't bother because 1.) He doesn't care 2.) If I asked, he'd want money and 3.) "You're managing the land like any good farmer would."
Unbelievable.
I wish I knew the land owners name so I could point him to this topic.
If I was the landowner I'd be pretty upset.
Quote from: beemickdee on March 26, 2014, 03:08:26 PM
Asked father in-law about this, actually, because I did take to heart what a lot of the guys on here said. He knows the landowner, and said don't bother because 1.) He doesn't care 2.) If I asked, he'd want money and 3.) "You're managing the land like any good farmer would."
I'm with Jeff you are unbelievable, instead of asking the actual owner you asked a third party. May as well of just opened the phone book and picked a random number and asked for their permission to take the wood it would have ment just as much.
If he would want money for it then that tells me he would care. He knows the wood has value and that it is worth something. You taking something of value without permission is stealing.
Good thing it's not in NB because I could find out some quick between the ISP and online land registry. >:(
Dad had leased land before to a potential buyer and they had no access to the woods, it was farm land only. And then in the end it was a third party that bought the land anyway. The first guy was nothing but an $%^& and has fled the country back to Europe as far as we know. Divorced his wife and kid in the process.
beemickdee, let me propose a question to you. How confident do you feel that you are in the right? Not only ethically, but legally?
Do you feel confident enough to tell me to go ahead, and take your real name, which I know, and this topic, and where you live, which I also know, and give your local law enforcement agency a call and ask them to look at this?
My guess is he is reluctant to ask the actual land owner because he knows that the owner will either 1)say NO, 2) will ask him to pay for what he is taking and has taken in the past, or 3) the landowner would seek legal counsel and go after him.
So by not asking then he is just pretending that all is OK.
And number 2 could be substantial. If you go the first post, it is stated the wood they had been cutting is mostly walnut, and range from 1' to nearly 3' in diameter.
I'm confused (which doesn't take much). Has anyone asked the landowner about harvesting/removing wood from/on his property?
Speaking as a land owner, if #1 was true then #2 would be false and if #2 was true then #1 would be false. I rent farm land out to a neighboring farmer that is adjacent to my woods and when the farmer wanted to take out a few trees that were leaning over the fields that he had paid to use he still came and asked if he could drop them, I gave him permission.
I can't figure out why a landowner who "doesn't care" and wants to eventually parcel out the land, would have a forester mark his woods?
I wish you had posted where you actually are, I would take the time to figure out who the landowner is, and by default, who you are and I would walk into either the State Police or Sheriff office and hand it all of this to them, after I notified the landowner, I don't care if I had to drive to CA to do it. Plain and simple you are a thief.
I talked to the land owner, he said he was fine with people getting firewood with such high prices on propane/gas. I told him about all the people getting upset over this on the webpage and that he laughed about so many people getting worked up.
Kemper, how are you involved, are you the logger?
This landowner would be the first in my experience to give wood away. Especially if this land is in some trust, there has to be a source of income for a trust to work especially if it's some kind of tax free insurance based annuity.
Quote from: Kemper on March 26, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
I talked to the land owner, he said he was fine with people getting firewood with such high prices on propane/gas. I told him about all the people getting upset over this on the webpage and that he laughed about so many people getting worked up.
Good Question Kemper. You come out of the blue all of the sudden? From the data I have you say you are in Kentucky. beemickdee's email address is used elsewhere on the internet where he posts his name and address in Shippensburg, PA. and now appears to possibly live in Hamilton, VA If someone is playing games here, it aint going to be pretty.
Well I wouldn't say I've come out of the blue I have posted once or twice on this thread. I've just never seen people with absolutely zero to do with something like this getting so worked up. People have given their advice over and over, most of it has been good advice, but we are just beating a dead horse here. This isn't an absentee land owner, he is around and I'm sure he knows more than most are giving him credit for. I understand where a lot of you people are coming from but to threaten to drive across state lines and get in the middle of stuff like this is a little over the top. We own plenty of farms in a lot of different areas and if someone came up to me out the blue tattle telling on someone like that I would be more aggravated at the person getting in my business than the young man cutting up left over tops to use for firewood just like his family has for years.
Of course I didn't talk to the actual land owner, but I'd bet $ he would react similar to what I said. Just my two cents.
Quote from: Jeff on March 27, 2014, 05:26:27 AM
Quote from: Kemper on March 26, 2014, 11:47:46 PM
I talked to the land owner, he said he was fine with people getting firewood with such high prices on propane/gas. I told him about all the people getting upset over this on the webpage and that he laughed about so many people getting worked up.
Good Question Kemper. You come out of the blue all of the sudden? From the data I have you say you are in Kentucky. beemickdee's email address is used elsewhere on the internet where he posts his name and address in Shippensburg, PA. and now appears to possibly live in Hamilton, VA If someone is playing games here, it aint going to be pretty.
The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing
Kemper,
The tops are not the real issue, the 3' black walnut and big red oak, combined with the statement by the OP that the landowner most likely would want to be paid for his wood are where the issue is created. Where does one draw the line? Is scrapping out the old JD tractor parked behind the barn OK because it has been there for 5 years and the owner did not specifically say not to get rid of it?
I'll agree the horse has been beat to death, but here's my take as an absentee landowner.
If someone is doing something on my land, I kinda like to know about it. Depending on the activity, I may or may not care, but I absolutely want to know what's going on.
The horse aint dead until it is dead. The horse keeps getting up and trying to bite the vet is the problem. The original poster is the one that keeps coming back and firing this back up Kemper.
And why the hell would you come on here and pretend to have talked to the guy? A bit underhanded as well. More than a bit >:(
I guess some will never get involved in organizations such as this?
http://www.woodtheft.ca/e/brochure_e.htm
And some of us will get involved. Just depends on your conscience I guess. Kinda leaves no guessing on who to entrust their property with.
Absantee owners are the prime target.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." (Benjamin Franklin)
I'm sure I shouldn't have said that, but everyone has said their peice. It's good sound advice, falling on deaf ears. Nothing is going to change. Let's put our efforts and insights to use in a more productive manner. I was hoping that my statement would end the discussion.
Quote from: Jeff on March 27, 2014, 04:54:55 PM
The horse aint dead until it is dead. The horse keeps getting up and trying to bite the vet is the problem. The original poster is the one that keeps coming back and firing this back up Kemper.
And why the hell would you come on here and pretend to have talked to the guy? A bit underhanded as well. More than a bit >:(
As long as someone thinks that timber theft is okay, then this won't be dropped. You sir can hope all you want, if you think that the owner of this site is going to drop it you are wrong. I suggest if you don't like it, or don't want to see it or read it, don't tune in to this topic.
If someone is taking forest products from land that is not theirs, without knowledge or permission of the owner, it is timber theft until said owner of the property deems it not to be. Said owner clearly has no say in something he knows nothing about. I'll beat it until its a bloody pulp if I have to. >:(
Quote from: beemickdee on January 13, 2014, 09:25:59 PM
Hey folks-
I'm new here, just registered! I live on a farm that was my wife's family's farm. Now it's owned by a landowner; the farm space is rented by a farmer up the road from us, and we pay rent to him. When my in-laws still lived here, my father in-law installed an OWB, and got most of his wood from the excavating company he worked for. After they moved, our neighbor, who also worked for that company, was able to get us substantial amounts of wood in addition to cutting dead fall from a stand of trees on the property. He moved, too.
So, last winter I went out to the stand and cut down about 10 trees, mostly walnut, and that's gotten us through most of this winter. At the end of last winter, I went out and cut down a few more, and started cutting them into rounds and left them there to get later in anticipation for the winter we're experiencing now, as well as next winter. The farmer never told me to stop, and we've never met the landowner, so I figured I was in the clear. Well, back in November or so, I noticed orange paint dots had popped up on most of the trees in our stand- dangit.
They've started cutting, and what I want to know is- will the logger collect all of the wood I've cut into rounds? I know they'll leave behind the tops of the trees which will probably yield a fair amount for me to pick from when they're done, but will the rounds be any good to them, or will they (hopefully) leave them behind? They're 18" in length and ranging from a foot or two in diameter to approaching three feet.
Beemickdee, have you had your fun yet? Or are you that arrogant that (if all this isn't a lie) you actually think you are still in the right? I am a firm believer that the lack of integrity that people like you have will be the downfall of our society.
John
Farmer stopped by while spraying the fields and chatted with me while I was cutting wood the other day. Said he talked to the landowner to ask him if anything was going to change with the farmland i.e. a development going in, etc., he said no, he was just cashing in on the timber. Farmer asked landowner if they (logging co.) were going to clean up what was left behind or if they were just going to leave it there, he said, don't know, they were supposed to clean up (as I mentioned, they came in and cleaned up around the landing). Take that for what it's worth.
I'm truly sorry to have upset some of you, in particular the moderator and others who are threatening to come across state lines and tell on me. I'll leave the comments on my character and the revealing of my possible addresses alone. FYI, if you're contacting the authorities, you'll want to know about the purple pickup truck that was in the field today gathering small stuff, and the farmer's neighbor with the beat up gray 80s Chevy who's been taking a load every couple of days too, who was out there this evening as well.
Kemper, thanks for being a voice of reason in all of this. I certainly won't be posting in this thread anymore, that's for sure.
Take care.
You are just exactly like a bunch everyone has identified in these parts who think other's property is their scrounging grounds for wood, scrap metal, roofing off a barn, copper wiring out of an old homestead building or what ever they can get their hands on. In short thieves. It just takes one of ya to make the first inroads so the rest get their bravado level up and help themselves to. Your attitude is that you could care less what goes on as long as you get your free firewood and you'll do nothing that could jeopardize your habit. Some of us was raised much different and were taught to look but don't touch, instead of look and take what isn't guarded.
I drove by a lot that had some pussy willows on it and Marcia and a bunch of other old lady's I know love them. The owner is a multi millionaire that has vacation homes all over the place (so he probably on vacation)and would have never know or cared if I picked some. I thought about this thread and kept driving. Thanks ff!
Ps my adopted dad has some on his property (long walk) so ladies will be happy ;)
Believe it or not, I don't take plants off private property neither. There are lady slippers across the road under a butternut tree and they stay right there. I have my own on my own ground. On the old farm dad sold we had wild maiden hair ferns that seems to be a novelty in some folks flower gardens. You see them in catalogs for sale. The fern is not common here. They stay right there to. :)
Swamp Donkey, I believe you, last year a neighbor who owns over 600 AC had a big area cut off by a commercial crew. After they left my wife could see a Yucca growing right by where the landing had been as it was a very old house lot apparently, she wanted me to go and dig it up, nobody had seen it for probably 30 years, so I called the owner and asked him if I could dig it up, his answer - "my wife probably wants it", so I let it go, the thing is still there - and it belongs to him plain and simple.