Two stroke oil mix ratio

[CTYank]

Oil specs are important too. Dolmar sez the oil has to meed JASO FC/FD and ISO-L-EGD for the 2-yr warranty to be in effect for my new PS-6100. So, that's what it gets. Their latest mix oil meets JASO FD, whereas the others I use meet JASO FC. The best syn oil is dirt cheap compared to engines.

Check the specs on Stihl mix oils. Haven't seen any of the above.

I've used Poulans with uhplated bores for multi-hundred hours with best available syn mix oil at 50:1 with bores that look like new.

[ZeroJunk]

I suspect this JASO is like U.L.  It is by no means a free service. If Stihl can get by without paying I don't blame them. Doesn't mean their oil wouldn't meet or exceed the specs. Stihl has nothing to gain by selling inferior oil and certainly doesn't have to.

[sawguy21]

A buddy who like Al refuses to change his ways insisted on mixing 16:1 in his old outboard. He then  complained the engine was leaking grease ??? It was unburned oil mixing with water in the exhaust, looked like Lubriplate. He finally consented to 20:1, same result. Would not go any leaner and kept chugging. He would be run off the lake and face charges today.
IMHO, there is no advantage other than psychological by mixing much heavier than the manufacturer's recommendations. You can bet the farm they build a considerable fudge factor in to cover their butts. We used to run 40W to shut up the bearing knock in our 75 dollar junkyard refugees but it didn't solve the problem. Just my 2 cents (1.8 CDN).

[7sleeper]

I suspect this JASO is like U.L.  It is by no means a free service. If Stihl can get by without paying I don't blame them. Doesn't mean their oil wouldn't meet or exceed the specs. Stihl has nothing to gain by selling inferior oil and certainly doesn't have to.

There are a few indipendant specifications out there. The most important are JASO (japanese), ISO-L-EGD (european) and API (american). I did a short write up on another site that I will just add here that might help clarify somethings.

As I've said here to many times I don't care what name is one the bottle as long as it is

1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD

Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate

Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (higher requirements than JASO FD)

Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII

Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless

Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl

Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!

And that Stihl cannot or doesn't want to pay the royalties is quite unbelievable. The price is a snails fart compared to their yearly budget.

7

[Bandmill Bandit]

I don't know this for a fact on Stihl branded oil but I have been told that it is BelRay MC1 re labeled and tweaked to stihl specs same as Husky.

I do know for a fact that Husky's rebranded XP mix oils are in fact BelRay MC1 as the base with a fuel stabilizer added. There may be other minor tweaks for Husky that BelRay does as well but one would have to compare the data sheets.

My husky dealer is the one that told me this and showed me a shipment of oil cartons, with the BelRay plant info on the bill of lading as the originating shipping point.   

[Andyshine77]

Husky's oil is made by Spectrum, Stihl's oil is a Castrol blend, that is mixed and bottled by Omni specialty. Unless Stihl of Canada uses different oil, "which is unlikely" you're information is completely false. On Omni's website they even have pictures of Stihl branded oil products. BelRay's MC1 wouldn't meet any of the standards anyway, H1R would be a better choice.

[Al_Smith]

 :D My Lawdy it's a chainsaw not a 500 thousand dollar off shore race boat .

[Bandmill Bandit]

I said i didn't know for sure on the Stihl oil but the Husky oil up here comes out of the Belray warehouse. I am trying to find out if that is a distribution centre for Canada that may also handle other products lines. I had to go get a case of mix for my chain saws today and Fred said he would check and find out for sure. He just assumed that it was belray because it came out of that warehouse.

Andy are you sure you don't mean "Spectro Oils" for the Husky mix? I have the dogs out tracking this down. Appears that the shipping point in Canada ware houses for a few different manufactures and a few different product lines.

     

[Andyshine77]

Andy are you sure you don't mean "Spectro Oils" for the Husky mix? I have the dogs out tracking this down. Appears that the shipping point in Canada ware houses for a few different manufactures and a few different product lines.

No Spectrum makes Husqvarna's oil http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CEoQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mymowerparts.com%2Fpdf%2FHusqvarna-Service-Bulletins%2FN0207008.pdf&ei=OG1kU_T7NceNyASwq4KYBQ&usg=AFQjCNHTcbndPEVFp5WboLfGEIdXvsaPZQ&sig2=QVHNc9vRSNnf_zMy8kLRCQ


Stihl HP Ultra.http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf

[Little Al]

I don't know this for a fact on Stihl branded oil but I have been told that it is BelRay MC1 re labeled and tweaked to stihl specs same as Husky.

I do know for a fact that Husky's rebranded XP mix oils are in fact BelRay MC1 as the base with a fuel stabilizer added. There may be other minor tweaks for Husky that BelRay does as well but one would have to compare the data sheets.

My husky dealer is the one that told me this and showed me a shipment of oil cartons, with the BelRay plant info on the bill of lading as the originating shipping point.   

I can not comment on Stihl oil sold in North America, but up until very recently Stihl oil in Europe was blended/supplied by Castrol, Have not bought/seen any for the last 4/5 months but doubt if it has changed

[Bandmill Bandit]

An interesting tid bit from Fred yesterday.

Spectrum does the blending and packaging for Husky and many other companies State side. The 2 main suppliers for the Ingredients are Castor Oil for the base oil and a Belray subsidiary among others for the additive compliment.

IT sounds like that is about the same situation up here. The Belray address appears to be a warehouse where Belray and several brands have their product drop shipped to in bulk and then it is further "processed" to make the "Made In Canada" stamp valid.

Still digging! I have a hunch I will find that BelRay is a marketing and blending/packaging subsidiary of one of the big refining organizations. That seems to be where this rabbit trail is leading. 

Not that it matters really but it is interesting how the corporate world sets things up to "COMPLY" with local regulations.   

[Andyshine77]

All the small blenders like Spectrum, Amsoil, Maxima BelRay and so on, have to buy their base stocks and additives from the big dogs. Mobil, Castrol, Citgo and so on. The small blenders are just that blenders, as non of them own oil refineries, or processing equipment. This is nothing new. Like with beer, local distribution centers will often have many different brands under one roof, to reduce transportation costs.

[Al_Smith]

When the local refinery,once Standard Oil of Ohio had a lube plant they also packaged the oil localy .It was amazing the different labels it was packaged under .Lawdy they had blue oil,red oil ,purple oil .No doubt if somebody would have wanted it they would have made pink oil .

Gasoline is the same .When you buy that stuff you have no idea where it came from most of the time .It might say Shell on the pump but might be Marathon .

[LeeB]

DanG Al, just how old are you? Standard Oil has been gone for a good many years.

[Bilge Rat]

Gas comes in to the plant by barge. It is pumped into a large tank. Then it is pumped into the day tanks where  the octane is set and tested. A sample is then sent to New York and certified and returned. This sample is saved onsite. The gas in the day tank can now be sold.

A tanker truck with a fuel order arrives, it can be shell, Marathon, etc.
The proper additives for that brand are blended into the gas as it is pumped into the tanker. This includes color and the "moonshine" which can only be added as the load is delivered.  The moonshine is corrosive so fed. law says it cannot be blended into the gas in the large storage tanks for safety. And you think ethanol is good for your saws, cars, etc?

All gas and oil is the same base, only the additives, secret sauce, etc make the finished product different.

Right now we are still getting winter mix gas because the summer mix barge has not arrived. This is the only real difference of gas coming from the barge/refiner everything else is added at the local supplier that make it different.

Yep it is all in the secret sauce!!!

[Ianab]

All gas and oil is the same base

Yes and no.

In your case, it's correct that all the local gas stations will be using the same base fuel. Different "Secret Sauce" maybe, but it's 99.9 % the same.  But you go to a different country, different feed stock being fed though a different refinery and it's not the same. Octane rating may be the same, but the chemical make up of the fuel may be very different.

It's the same here as most of our fuel comes from one Refinery that's jointly owned by the major oil companies. But it's a different blend to many others. Octane rating is correct, cars run fine on it etc. But if the refinery is shut down and they import a few tanker loads of fuel from an overseas refinery. it actually smells different. Chemical mix is different.

Every 2 stroke machine I've ever bought, the local dealer has said to mix the oil 25:1. Specifically been told to ignore the manual, as "NZ fuel is a different blend". I don't know the technical details, but I can only surmise that they where getting too many failures (in warranty) with the 50:1 mix? Mix in some more oil, and the saws don't blow up?

Maybe excess oil might wear a saw prematurely? It wears out after 8 years instead of 10?  OK, that's still better than dying a month out of warranty.

I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian

[SwampDonkey]

Of course everyone knows me by now and my monster Stihl FS550 brush saw. ;) This saw was bought in 2007 and has used 50:1 Stihl oil since new. It cuts 75-100 acres of brush a year. 'nuff said I think. ;D My father always used left over sync motor oil from oil changes in the car and truck for his mix oil in a Stihl weed eater. Something for y'all to choke on. :D

Gas up here in NB is the same as most gas in filling stations in the NE US. It comes out of the Saint John, NB refinery. You go south of Maine and no one knows who Jim Irving is, but they are burning his gas and diesel. :D But yes, they do have a blending plant down there. That is due to State or Fed requirements, not really a trade secret.

[Bilge Rat]

The base gas or oil is the same in your area.
The additives and the quality of them is the difference in brands.
They make a difference in mileage, lifespan, and clean burn.

Techron and Yamaha ringfree are good detergents, lube and corrosion preventaves that help protect the engine/fuel system.

Branded gas and oils use the better additives.
In outboards the Yamalube 2 stroke oil has more moly than other oils. It smokes a little more but it lubes great.

If they left a little more sulphur in oil and gas our engines would wear less over time.
EPA rules tend to overlook what is best for the motor and power.

Look for oils with the best wear protection first. Clean burn is not as important, you can decarbon the motor frequently but first you need to make it live.

What oil has the best specs for wear protection in saws?

[Al_Smith]

DanG Al, just how old are you? Standard Oil has been gone for a good many years.

Well I was born a couple years before 1950 if that means anything . :D

I was in and out of that stinky refinery for years while it was Standard oil .It became BP about 1978 or so .It's now Husky out of Canada .

Who owns what changes in the oil biz .That refinery was once "Solar" then was acquired by Rockerfeller .Ohio Oil company was spun off and became Marathon eventually .Standard Oil was noted for clear white kerosine while Ohio oil made a lesser grade .Which had to do with both the oil boom near Lima Ohio plus the Cygnet field near Toledo area .This was in the days they had no idea what to do with gasoline  believe it or not .Illumination was the name of the game not motor fuel .

[SwampDonkey]

Jim Irving supplies their marine fuel and 70 % of their core development is in Atlantic Canada. Irving's gas card includes Husky Energy.

[CR888]

All gas and oil is the same base

Yes and no.

In your case, it's correct that all the local gas stations will be using the same base fuel. Different "Secret Sauce" maybe, but it's 99.9 % the same.  But you go to a different country, different feed stock being fed though a different refinery and it's not the same. Octane rating may be the same, but the chemical make up of the fuel may be very different.

It's the same here as most of our fuel comes from one Refinery that's jointly owned by the major oil companies. But it's a different blend to many others. Octane rating is correct, cars run fine on it etc. But if the refinery is shut down and they import a few tanker loads of fuel from an overseas refinery. it actually smells different. Chemical mix is different.

Every 2 stroke machine I've ever bought, the local dealer has said to mix the oil 25:1. Specifically been told to ignore the manual, as "NZ fuel is a different blend". I don't know the technical details, but I can only surmise that they where getting too many failures (in warranty) with the 50:1 mix? Mix in some more oil, and the saws don't blow up?

Maybe excess oil might wear a saw prematurely? It wears out after 8 years instead of 10?  OK, that's still better than dying a month out of warranty.

I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian

This is a very good post and an issue often over looked. Ian you always bring something useful to the table.

[7sleeper]

.....I suspect that a lot of the fuel problems may be due to that difference in the chemical make up of US fuel compared to EU fuel? The O-Rings on the Stihl "flippy caps" for example. They might have worked fine on EU fuel, or even our local stuff. Different blend in the US, and they go all funky on you?

Ian

Sorry but there are a lot of complaints about the o-rings on the "flippy caps" here. So that argument doesn't quite count.
And to be honest, I really doubt that there is any real difference of the chemical properties in the "western" economies around the world! Why should there be? Who is the main customer? The car industry and they dictate what the engines they produce need. And I really doubt that international car manufacturers are willing to design different engines for each economical interesting region in the world. They are the customers number 1 and I am sure that refinaries around the world are all at a very very similar standard and can produce whatever the customer wants in the properties that he wants.
Of course there are regional differences in lower class fuels but the good quality stuff should be very similar everywhere.

7

[Andyshine77]

Totally different regulations in other countries. Automobiles have to meet the requirements for each region let alone different countries. Then we also add ethanol into the mix. The engine controls take care of the differences in fuel.

There have been serious issues however. BMW had problems in the late 90's with plated cylinders, they would pit and corrode. They had no such issues in Europe.

[Ianab]

And to be honest, I really doubt that there is any real difference of the chemical properties in the "western" economies around the world!

From this page (CDC) - http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp72-c3.pdf

Gasoline is a refined product of petroleum consisting of a mixture of hydrocarbons, additives, and
blending agents. The composition of gasolines varies widely, depending on the crude oils used, the
refinery processes available, the overall balance of product demand, and the product specifications.
The typical composition of gasoline hydrocarbons (% volume) is as follows: 4-8% alkanes; 2-5%
alkenes; 25-40% isoalkanes; 3-7% cycloalkanes;l-4% cycloalkenes; and 20-50% total aromatics
(0.5-2.5% benzene) (IARC 1989). Additives and blending agents are added to the hydrocarbon
mixture to improve the performance and stability of gasoline (IARC 1989; Lane 1980). These
compounds include anti-knock agents, anti-oxidants,metal deactivators, lead scavengers, anti-rust
agents, anti-icing agents, upper-cylinder lubricants, detergents, and dyes (IARC 1989; Lane 1980). At
the end of the production process, finished gasoline typically contains more than 150 separate
compounds although as many as 1,000 compounds have been identified in some blends!

Thing is that different oil wells produce different crude, and different refineries process it in different ways. They can adjust the blends to alter the octane rating, but the %s and even the actual chemicals in the fuel fuel can be very different. The physical properties and the way it burns in an engine is close enough that cars run on it just fine. But how it reacts chemically may be different?

Ian

Of course it may also be that Stihl stuffed up and used the wrong grade of rubber in some of it's caps ???

[LeeB]

Not to add anything to either side of this debate, but just as a bit of useless information, oil from different levels in the same resevoir can have different compositions.