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Author Topic: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.  (Read 102099 times)

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Online doctorb

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2920 on: October 23, 2021, 09:34:46 AM »
TR - you are correct.  There are no large bore named veins within the deltoid muscle.  The Cephalic vein is within the superficial aspect of the muscle, and is very anterior to where the shot is given (lateral). It may be that venous injection into the cephalic vein could occur if: 1) the injector penetrates in the absolute incorrect anterior portion of the shoulder and 2) the patient has such a significant adipose tissue layer under the skin that the needle only reaches slightly into the deltoid muscle.  Barring those possibilities in concert, hard to see the needle reaching a large bore vein.  I have operated around and through the deltoid hundreds and hundreds of times, I have never seen an identifiable vein within the muscle, excepting the superficial cephalic vein, in any of those dissections.  We are all different, so who knows.  It is, however, worth further study.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2921 on: October 23, 2021, 09:53:43 AM »
Oh I think you could hit something, it's rare, but yeah.



No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline doc henderson

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2922 on: October 23, 2021, 11:02:46 AM »
nurses spend days with supervision and testing on how to give shots.  Docs, not so much.  see one, do one, teach one.  It is not rocket science, and is mostly to be able to follow Doc orders so the dose and onset are as expected.  we will see.  when I see a nurse give a shot, I always wonder why it takes them so long. i am a conceptual guy and try to understand the body and how it works.  i have no idea how this could make a difference, but this sounds like one of those deals.  feel free to ask your nurse to aspirate, and she would have prob. anyway.  you are jabbing a needle into an unseen area.  they used to give shots in the glut (why kids hate needles so much) and thought it may increase sterile abscess more.  still hardly ever.  If your nurse rolls her eyes at you, let it go.  if you poke the lateral aspect of the deltoid, there is nothing there.  
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Offline barbender

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2923 on: October 23, 2021, 11:09:24 AM »
One time at the kids' 4-H meeting, someone gave a demonstration on giving shots to livestock. They used an orange for the test subject😂. After that, whenever one of our dogs would need to go in for shots, I would say, "just have Moriah do it, she knows how!" My other daughter would roll her eyes and say, "Daaaad, she gave a shot to an orange!"😂😂 That's all I can add to this conversation 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️😊
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2924 on: October 24, 2021, 02:16:04 PM »
I had my booster (third Pfizer) shot last Monday.  No side effects other than a sore shoulder for a few days.

My second shot left me pretty tired the second day after.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2925 on: October 25, 2021, 03:11:49 AM »
And the beat goes on. ;)
No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline Ianab

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2926 on: October 26, 2021, 05:21:38 AM »
Latest figures for the Delta outbreak here in NZ



 

Of the 224 people that have needed hospital care, only 3 were vaccinated. (2 shots + 2 weeks). A lot of children have caught it, but fortunately not so many needed hospital care. MOST of the serious cases have been the non-vaccinated. The vaccination rate is for the total population, so includes the under 12s in the %.
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Offline HemlockKing

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2927 on: October 26, 2021, 06:41:03 AM »
And the beat goes on. ;)
Still moving strong!!!  ;D Great jam

Offline kantuckid

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2928 on: October 26, 2021, 02:38:03 PM »
Given that the discussion of vaccines is a worldwide hot topic lately, the most recent Smithsonian magazine has an article, written by a doc, that I found interesting.  Covers the historical and current diphtheria vaccination senario. 
It is an article any parent of younger children should read IMO.
 The diptheria vaccines have changed as recently as lately and it continues to be a factor for children's health in several areas of the world. Even in Europe, held up as being the more advanced society at times, they are still yet shuffling diphtheria vaccines from place to place.  
I may (probably) have miss-used the proper terminology of vaccine vs anti-toxins and so on but when we have parents who hold back their own kids from vaccinations it's a worthy discussion to understand better. 
 
After reading even more professional comments each day, I'm still in a holding pattern for more info about the booster covid shot for myself. I'll share that I do find the media comments from Dr. Marty Makary, of Johns Hopkins both informative and useful. He is of the opinion that the covid vaccines should have been spaced further apart than was the case for shots #1 & #2. Like most docs he also know there is a lack of research in the entire arena of covid vaccinations.

On shoulder shots I have wondered if somebody will strike my left shoulders screws or cable someday?

 
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2929 on: October 26, 2021, 03:18:49 PM »
I've seen several doctors state that using a different vaccine boosts immunity and giving second doses further apart than 2 weeks is more effective as well. Around here I'd say from observation and the media reporting that most of us had doses a lot further apart than 2 weeks. I know mine was over 2 months apart. But that was only by consequence, because of availability of vaccine. So can't give full credit there to be honest. Just happens that it is more effective when doing that, as it turns out.  Mixing vaccines has been good to. Why mixing of vaccines was a big hesitation in some countries is still a mystery. ;)
No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline doc henderson

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2930 on: October 26, 2021, 03:30:39 PM »
It has to be studied.  if you got two very differant vaccines would they together be twice as good, no better than one alone, or some multiple of the origional like 3 or 4 times better.  when we started, we were trying to get people immunity, so do you wait a few months for the second dose so it lasts for years, or get two in soon as possible to get over 90% relative immunity.  if you die before the second dose, not so good.  I agree we are learning as we go.  how else can you do it with a novel pandemic.  
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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2931 on: October 26, 2021, 03:55:29 PM »
Well stated Doc. smiley_thumbsup

As it turns out, if we look at other vaccinations for disease. Often see a different vaccine for the same disease gives a better response in some patients that didn't respond well from another. So going on inference and not all guess work.

But yes, maximize the # of people getting a poke was priority. ;)
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1 Thessalonians 5:21

Offline Ianab

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2932 on: October 26, 2021, 07:48:57 PM »
NZ had switched to 6 weeks gap between shots because research suggested that gave better immunity, and at the time the virus wasn't circulating here.  But when the virus did get loose again, we started seeing community cases, and there was now plenty of vaccine available, they are back to the 3 week gap. You can see from the table I posted above, the 2 shots (whether 3 or 6+ weeks apart) give a LOT better protection than just one shot. I don't believe the difference is huge, but currently the push is to get everyone that 90%(?) immunity. Maybe waiting longer might give 95, as might getting a booster next year. 


Like the Doc says. we don't KNOW, we are learning as we go. Makes it tough to give people exact answers for legit questions like "How long is the vaccine immunity good for?". You can measure how the level of antibodies in the blood falls off over time, but that's not a direct relationship to immunity. That probably depends on the body's ability to make MORE antibodies at short notice if needed, and that's harder to assess.


Will there be booster shots next year? Maybe. NZ is currently testing a new vaccine aimed more specifically at the Delta variant, and not MRNA based. It's hoped that this will work as a more effective booster shot. But it's only in animal testing at this stage, so no where near ready to deploy. And again it's the question of whether a different booster vaccine will work better than a 3rd dose of Pfizer, which no one knows yet.  

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Offline firefighter ontheside

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2933 on: October 26, 2021, 08:00:32 PM »
My friend who is a researcher for pharmaceutical companies was telling us about the process of doing trials.  The manufacturer comes up with a hypothesis and tests it.  Pfizer hypothesized that waiting 3 weeks between shots would be a good time frame.  They did all the studies and it was found to be 95% efficacious.  When it was approved by FDA, that was what they had to do, because that's what was studied.  To change the timing gap, there would have to be whole new studies is what he said.  Now, that's for the US.  I presume other countries can do what ever they choose to be the better course.

My wife was just reading from the study on Pfizer in children 5 to 12.  So far, the vaccine was found to be 91% effective which is very good considering that much of the study was involving delta variant.  My 11 year old may be able to get a shot next week if they approve it.  
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2934 on: October 27, 2021, 06:43:11 AM »
"New Canadian data suggests the bold strategy to delay and mix second doses of COVID-19 vaccines led to strong protection from infection, hospitalization and death even against the highly contagious delta variant that could provide lessons for the world."

New data suggests Canada's 'gamble' on delaying, mixing and matching COVID-19 vaccines paid off | CBC News
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2935 on: October 28, 2021, 11:20:41 PM »
Just call me the midget doctor.
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Offline barbender

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2936 on: October 28, 2021, 11:30:37 PM »
Sorry for your loss, Jeff. He sounds like a colorful character just from the obituary.
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Offline doc henderson

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2937 on: October 29, 2021, 02:18:28 AM »
sorry Jeff.
timberking B 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor 12 volt tarp motor

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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2938 on: October 29, 2021, 05:11:20 AM »
Sorry to hear that. Sobering that he was about our age. 
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Re: Just the Facts, the Crown virus.
« Reply #2939 on: October 29, 2021, 05:12:16 AM »
Sorry about your buddy Jeff.
No amount of belief makes something a fact. James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21


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