iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Small scale, low impact equipment advise

Started by Ludlowlad, March 14, 2020, 11:00:01 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ludlowlad

Good evening! Long time forum lurker and finally making my first post. 

I need some advice; to make a long story short ..... 

I have been offered an opportunity over the course of the next couple years to expand my families "personal" firewood and custom cutting operation. 

Over the last 5 years my family and I have done a lot of work on our own woodlot to improve it for the future with thinning, select harvesting, and building trail for future use. Through our forester some of my large parcel neighbors visited our wood lot and were impressed with how our management plan and hard work had turned out. A couple of them have gotten together and approached me if I would consider doing the same work for their parcels as part of there updated management plans. A big factor of their decision to approach my family was the fact that they have been very unhappy with the "mess" left by previous loggers with larger production equipment. 

My family and I have always used small scale equipment (in my mind) and keep our own trails narrow. We currently use a combination of a tractor with winch, shovel dozer with winch, mini excavator with thumb, tractor with pto chipper, and a dozer with homemade log trailer (old hay wagon gear). Set up in a "fixed" location on the property is our wood processor and our mobile wood mizer sawmill with a skid steer for material handling. 

This is where I need some insight ..... I think it's time to get some more specific forestry equipment. I love my old tractors, but having increased my work area by 10+ fold I don't think it's realistic to continue efficiently.
The equipment I have been looking at primarily are used small scale forwarders/bicombi machines made by Vimek, and other manufacturers from Europe. Another couple ideas/options could be to buy a forwarding log trailer to pull with the shovel dozer (metavic maybe) and/or a harvesting head or just a regular rotating grapple for my 6.5 ton excavator.

I have done a bunch of searching on this forum about small scale equipment and operations and seen a lot of information but still still leaves me with in answered questions more specific to my opportunity. I definitely need some insight from individuals who have been doing this longer than me. 

Terrain considerations: somewhat hilly, small streams, some ledge, avoidable wet areas and deep trenches. 

Species: completely mixed bag, some areas do have concentrations of a specific species. 

Pay: No final decision has been made, but discussed options include hourly payment for my work on the management plan (trail clearing, brush removal, retaining ponds, etc), traditional owner shares, to the most extreme I can have all the wood for "free" as long as I supply them with there yearly firewood.  

This would not be a "full time" per say job, I currently have a job that takes me away for varying times of the year, any where from a few weeks to an entire season, but then I get to be home for the same amount of time that I was away. Allowing me to have "extended weekend" work we will call it. 

I greatly appreciate any words of wisdom, equipment recommendations, or comments! 

Thanks, T 

P.S.
I found a picture on a post with a JD 350 and a forwarder trailer, maybe just the answer? I will see if I can attach it.
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Blue skies ahead

Skeans1

Here's a good question what sort of lengths and size of the timber are you going into? 

thecfarm

Glad to see you joined, welcome.
It's nice that you are taking care of your forest. I am no help on the equipment, but I could use what you have. I just have a 40hp tractor and a Norse winch to get out firewood and logs. I have 150 acres that I "maintain".  ;D  I say "maintain, but it's impossible for one man to keep up at that much and work a 40 hour job too.

Somewheres on the forum someone had a small excavator with a grapple on it and they would load a trailer with that.

I don't have a chipper, I just cut my brush up in to pieces, that I try not to have longer than 2 feet. I even ran the saw up and down the limbs. When my Father and me was cutting here, the brush will disappear in just a few years. One reason we kinda had to do that in places. My land is a challenge to get around on. With wet holes, big rocks, knolls, uneven ground and leave trees, it can be hard to get around on. Sometimes we have to drive through the brush. With it all cut up into short pieces, a tractor can go through and should not do any damage to the tractor. We still tried not to run through the brush, but if we had to ,we could.
What ever you decide on, we like pictures.  ;D  Good luck to you.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

snowstorm

that 350 and trailer was the answer in the 60's there were a lot of them. they had the jd roto boom loader and a much more rugged trailer. undercarriage if there was a rock within a mile was a night mare. go buy a 646 valmet 

Ed_K

 This is what I have used for the last 20 yrs.


 

 It has a rotating grapple that goes on the front bucket loader when I have large logs to load onto a hay wagon trailer, when I can't load onto the forwarder trailer.
Ed K

Bruno of NH

I have an off road forwarding trailer it's well built and can move a lot of logs.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Bruno of NH

I see your in Vt you are welcome to come see and operate it if you would like.
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Ludlowlad

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 15, 2020, 02:12:03 AM
Here's a good question what sort of lengths and size of the timber are you going into?
Most of what I have cut on my own land is thinning out poor quality (mostly). Anything under 16" can go through my processor for firewood, 12-16" pine and spruce I usually try and get a boards out of, the real junk gets chipped and I have a lot of uses for chips on the farm. 
On request I have selective cut some of the larger timber on my property, 20-36" range that is then custom sawed. I have a friend who is a professional furniture maker and he has requests 5-10 times a year. Over the last few years tapped maple has been a big request. 
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Quote from: thecfarm on March 15, 2020, 07:19:17 AM
Glad to see you joined, welcome.
It's nice that you are taking care of your forest. I am no help on the equipment, but I could use what you have. I just have a 40hp tractor and a Norse winch to get out firewood and logs. I have 150 acres that I "maintain".  ;D  I say "maintain, but it's impossible for one man to keep up at that much and work a 40 hour job too.

Somewheres on the forum someone had a small excavator with a grapple on it and they would load a trailer with that.

I don't have a chipper, I just cut my brush up in to pieces, that I try not to have longer than 2 feet. I even ran the saw up and down the limbs. When my Father and me was cutting here, the brush will disappear in just a few years. One reason we kinda had to do that in places. My land is a challenge to get around on. With wet holes, big rocks, knolls, uneven ground and leave trees, it can be hard to get around on. Sometimes we have to drive through the brush. With it all cut up into short pieces, a tractor can go through and should not do any damage to the tractor. We still tried not to run through the brush, but if we had to ,we could.
What ever you decide on, we like pictures.  ;D  Good luck to you.
Thanks! 
I will try and share some photos when everything works out.
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Quote from: snowstorm on March 15, 2020, 07:35:36 AM
that 350 and trailer was the answer in the 60's there were a lot of them. they had the jd roto boom loader and a much more rugged trailer. undercarriage if there was a rock within a mile was a night mare. go buy a 646 valmet
I found that picture on the forum and though that might just be what I need. My old wagon set up is by no means the best. Sense it is made of wood it takes a beating and the tires do no do well on "off road" conditions. 
From what I have read, forwarder trailer with a loader seems to be the right choice. 
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Quote from: Ed_K on March 15, 2020, 08:14:15 AM
This is what I have used for the last 20 yrs.


 

It has a rotating grapple that goes on the front bucket loader when I have large logs to load onto a hay wagon trailer, when I can't load onto the forwarder trailer.
Awesome, what brand, size trailer is that? How large of a tree can you load with the trailers loader? 
My thoughts reach wise would be to be in the 14-16' range. 
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Quote from: Bruno of NH on March 15, 2020, 09:03:06 AM
I see your in Vt you are welcome to come see and operate it if you would like.
May take you up on that, currently on work trip and will not be back for awhile. Did you fabricate the trailer yourself? 
Blue skies ahead

Skeans1

Quote from: Ludlowlad on March 15, 2020, 10:54:59 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 15, 2020, 02:12:03 AM
Here's a good question what sort of lengths and size of the timber are you going into?
Most of what I have cut on my own land is thinning out poor quality (mostly). Anything under 16" can go through my processor for firewood, 12-16" pine and spruce I usually try and get a boards out of, the real junk gets chipped and I have a lot of uses for chips on the farm.
On request I have selective cut some of the larger timber on my property, 20-36" range that is then custom sawed. I have a friend who is a professional furniture maker and he has requests 5-10 times a year. Over the last few years tapped maple has been a big request.
The reason I'm asking about lengths and diameter is most the equipment you're looking into or wanting to on the small size for the timber. The Vimek would be the smallest I could consider to do anything you're talking about, from the sounds of it you're getting into commercial thinning territory which really do call for bigger equipment. We've had a TJ 1010 now we run a 1210 as well as having a forwarding trailer for a tractor that I wouldn't recommend for anything other then extremely light duty use vs a built machine for the application. If you're going to be cutting roughly 20" stuff you're into much larger equipment then you are wanting to look at, when you look at the heads look at h415 on our 1270 is full delimb capacity is 18 or 20 inches but it can cut and delimb up to 32+ inches. Take a 4000 logmax the max size you'll get through that head will be 20 or 22 inches but you don't want to do that all the time either.

Bruno of NH

Quote from: Ludlowlad on March 15, 2020, 11:05:39 AM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on March 15, 2020, 09:03:06 AM
I see your in Vt you are welcome to come see and operate it if you would like.
May take you up on that, currently on work trip and will not be back for awhile. Did you fabricate the trailer yourself?
The trailer is a Woody's off road trailer made in Canada 
Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Ludlowlad

Quote from: Skeans1 on March 15, 2020, 11:29:12 AM
Quote from: Ludlowlad on March 15, 2020, 10:54:59 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on March 15, 2020, 02:12:03 AM
Here's a good question what sort of lengths and size of the timber are you going into?
Most of what I have cut on my own land is thinning out poor quality (mostly). Anything under 16" can go through my processor for firewood, 12-16" pine and spruce I usually try and get a boards out of, the real junk gets chipped and I have a lot of uses for chips on the farm.
On request I have selective cut some of the larger timber on my property, 20-36" range that is then custom sawed. I have a friend who is a professional furniture maker and he has requests 5-10 times a year. Over the last few years tapped maple has been a big request.
The reason I'm asking about lengths and diameter is most the equipment you're looking into or wanting to on the small size for the timber. The Vimek would be the smallest I could consider to do anything you're talking about, from the sounds of it you're getting into commercial thinning territory which really do call for bigger equipment. We've had a TJ 1010 now we run a 1210 as well as having a forwarding trailer for a tractor that I wouldn't recommend for anything other then extremely light duty use vs a built machine for the application. If you're going to be cutting roughly 20" stuff you're into much larger equipment then you are wanting to look at, when you look at the heads look at h415 on our 1270 is full delimb capacity is 18 or 20 inches but it can cut and delimb up to 32+ inches. Take a 4000 logmax the max size you'll get through that head will be 20 or 22 inches but you don't want to do that all the time either.
Commercial thinning is probably the closest thing to describe what I will be doing. For my updating business plan I have figured at least 5 years + worth of thinning on these 2 large parcels if I am able to make my operation 10-20 more efficient. 
My goal is to find a piece of equipment that will fit most of what I do. For the selective cutting I have done it is usually 1 or 2 trees that I then custom mill. 90% of the next 5 years would be thinning sub 16". 
I may be in a dream world ... I have used very "narrow" equipment so far and it has allowed me to keep my access trails small and would like to keep it that way if possible. 
That's why when I saw the vimek machine I thought that maybe the best sort of dedicated machine, or a forwarding trailer of similar size. 
The jump to a full size forwarder would require some enlarging of my own access trails to these new parcels. 
Another pipe dream .... finding a machine that has the ability to do it all or have it down to maybe 2 main pieces. I have always hand cut and bucked all my own logs, so have no experience in the mechanized harvesting with some sort of processor. I have a John Deere 60 excavator 6.5 ton range and not sure if finding some sort of feller/harvest or attachment would be worthwhile or even practical. 
I realize that any forestry specific equipment would be a substantial purchase and from my internet search not a hole lot in the used market for the scale of equipment. 
Appreciate the help and insight.
Blue skies ahead

Ludlowlad

Quote from: Bruno of NH on March 15, 2020, 11:39:12 AM
Quote from: Ludlowlad on March 15, 2020, 11:05:39 AM
Quote from: Bruno of NH on March 15, 2020, 09:03:06 AM
I see your in Vt you are welcome to come see and operate it if you would like.
May take you up on that, currently on work trip and will not be back for awhile. Did you fabricate the trailer yourself?
The trailer is a Woody's off road trailer made in Canada
I will add there name to my research pile for trailers. What model do you have?
Thanks
Blue skies ahead

stavebuyer

I am not so sure the magic is in the machine; I think your current equipment mix is right on target and you may only need to upgrade to a factory guarded logging tractor and hydraulic forwarding trailer. Not meaning to offend the pro CTL guys who do a much better job than commercial tree length; but there work still doesn't come close to the minimal impact from a careful landowner working their own land at their own pace. I think your neighbors expect the same job they see at your place; even if they have to pay you rather than be paid by you. 

Ludlowlad

Quote from: stavebuyer on March 15, 2020, 12:15:48 PM
I am not so sure the magic is in the machine; I think your current equipment mix is right on target and you may only need to upgrade to a factory guarded logging tractor and hydraulic forwarding trailer. Not meaning to offend the pro CTL guys who do a much better job than commercial tree length; but there work still doesn't come close to the minimal impact from a careful landowner working their own land at their own pace. I think your neighbors expect the same job they see at your place; even if they have to pay you rather than be paid by you.
Very well put, couldn't have describe the situation much better. I have a better than average load of equipment even though it's old it's well maintained and functional. The land owner expectations are that it will look the same/ similar to how my own land currently looks. 
Many land owners use logging to bring in extra money, but these owners don't necessarily need the extra money (best way to say they are well off) and want the "look"/ plots managed. 
I grew up watching my families heavy construction company and all the jobs were time and material. My father would tell any one who questioned it, "it's the fairies way for both party's. If you don't like it get someone else who will do you dishonestly". 
Having to buy a forwarding trailer is also much easier of a money pill to swallow. Use what you know rather than a new demon may be the best way. 
Thanks for the advice
Blue skies ahead

hacknchop

Totally agree with stavebuyer stay with your model it is working good ,worthy of imitation . There's a lot to be said about knowing what you are doing , nothing wrong with improving but as they say now a days stay in your lane , I think you got this , as I read somewhere nothing but blue skies ahead.☺
Often wrong never indoubt

Ludlowlad

Quote from: hacknchop on March 15, 2020, 12:41:49 PM
Totally agree with stavebuyer stay with your model it is working good ,worthy of imitation . There's a lot to be said about knowing what you are doing , nothing wrong with improving but as they say now a days stay in your lane , I think you got this , as I read somewhere nothing but blue skies ahead.☺
I have wanted a forwarding trailer for a long time and maybe this is the excuse I have needed to buy one. The better question is maybe what brands I should consider. 
Ideally I would like to go to a forestry show and see as many as possible.
Thanks for the advice 
Blue skies ahead

78NHTFY

Ludlowlad--Welcome to the Forum.  Good plan you have.  This is what I use.  I think Kesla bought out PATU.  Both Co's from Finland.  PM me if you'd like to come by for a look-see; 1/2 hr away?  All the best, Rob.  


 


 
If you have time, you win....

Ludlowlad

Quote from: 78NHTFY on March 15, 2020, 05:42:12 PM
Ludlowlad--Welcome to the Forum.  Good plan you have.  This is what I use.  I think Kesla bought out PATU.  Both Co's from Finland.  PM me if you'd like to come by for a look-see; 1/2 hr away?  All the best, Rob.  


 



Thanks, I may take you up on that. What size trailer and reach capacity? 
Blue skies ahead

Bruno of NH

Lt 40 wide with 38hp gas and command controls , F350 4x4 dump and lot of contracting tools

Haleiwa

Unless you're in a rush, the Northeast Logging Expo is coming up in Essex Junction on May 15 and 16.  It's a fun show, and they have something for just about every size operation there.
Socialism is people pretending to work while the government pretends to pay them.  Mike Huckabee

Thank You Sponsors!