I'm nervous! Send help

[daltonk58]

Okay guys to get started Im still new the forum and going to make this as short as possible. So everyone knows I bought a norwood mx34 23hp motor that'll cut 12'6" lumber...  Had a guy call me last week asking if I could come look at some logs he wants sawed. ( very eager to go work for people with my mill) So I went over this morning to look. He took me in his house to show me what he wants. He wants new floor joists 2x10x18. And yes the 18 is feet. (Pre 1900 house) so we jump in his rtv and go for a drive to the back woods. We're walking around and points to the trees he wants sawn. (Still standing all red oak) not a problem still standing. We talked about an agreed price to spend a day to come in and cut them and get them drug out to the sawing location. Now... The problem is they're 3,4, and 5 foot in diameter. I will spend the money on extensions for mill to get the 18' length. I'm worried about true square sawn lumber at that  length. I will have to split the logs 2 times in order for it to fit through my mill. I'm very nervous about making the best product for this guy as possible. Did I bite off more than I can chew? Do you guys saw 18' cants? Is it more of a pain than worth it? If it to heavy for mill? I would rather turn a job down because of gut feeling rather than fail and have an upset customer. I've only been sawing for 2 months Any opinions will be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the essay!

[Kbeitz]

After working with really big logs I say no more... It's just not worth the extra work.
You better have a BIG tractor and a BIG saw and some BIG arms....

[daltonk58]

After working with really big logs I say no more... It's just not worth the extra work.
You better have a BIG tractor and a BIG saw and some BIG arms....

I mean honestly I don't even know if I could flip a quarter of a 5ft red oak log that's 18 foot long with a peavey or can't hook myself. Let alone loading them

[WV Sawmiller]

D58,

   IMO yes.

   I'd be nervous too. Not sure what the extension will cost or how hard it will be to set up. Do you have experience as a tree feller? How did you get roped into that? Do you have saws with bars that long and motors that powerful? Ever try splitting a tree that big with a chainsaw? What kind of support equipment do you have to even turn the logs? Do you have a super sized Logrite cant hook to turn a 5' diameter log?

   Before I ever cut a project for someone I first cut a similar or more difficult one at home to be sure I could do it. Can you delay cutting for the guy till you do a dress rehearsal on similar stuff of your own?

   Good luck.

[Wallys World]

According to the FF toolbox, the weight of a 18 foot 36 inch red oak log is 8142 pounds. You better have some mighty big support equipment.

[JustinW_NZ]

As others point out, you need some really good support equipment to load/unload for that sizing.
We use a ten ton wheel loader and find that to small some times!?!

Cheers
Justin

[bkaimwood]

I'd say you bit off more than you can chew, and say congratulations at the same time. I often bite off more than people think I can chew, but, so far, have ALWAYS gotten the job done. I've had a few I haven't made money on, and some I've lost on...but they were all positive learning experiences, none of which I regret, so you have my vote...I sense determination under your anxiety, so I think you got this. If handled correctly, events like such can be great for your reputation... Your customer will be sure to tell others what you did for him... Good or bad, so make it good. We do these things when starting out, to, well, start out... The longest can't I've sawn us 21', white oak...the largest diameter, 42"... It sounds like you are in  an area with big, long trees, if so, I'd consider extensions. I do not...your are lucky if it's straight 16' out!!!  There are other ways to do it...saw to length limit, shuffle the log back to saw more...some recent great posts on this. As for weight... Firm, solid, sound base, and be careful, you should be OK...

[Cazzhrdwd]

As someone who handles big logs daily it all depends on the money. Its going to take you three times the normal amount of time to process them, not including cutting down. I would see if he was willing to cut other trees to get the job done. I doubt he'll pay for what it's truly worth for you to fell, quarter then saw. So in essence, you're probably going to lose money on this job if he isn't willing to pay more for cutting those big trees.

[Cazzhrdwd]

double post

I'll add though if you really need the money or just want to do it, you've only lost the blood and sweat.

How long will your mill saw without extensions?

[Kbeitz]

Your going to use up some real chainsaw gas....

[daltonk58]

D58,

   IMO yes.

   I'd be nervous too. Not sure what the extension will cost or how hard it will be to set up. Do you have experience as a tree feller? How did you get roped into that? Do you have saws with bars that long and motors that powerful? Ever try splitting a tree that big with a chainsaw? What kind of support equipment do you have to even turn the logs? Do you have a super sized Logrite cant hook to turn a 5' diameter log?

   Before I ever cut a project for someone I first cut a similar or more difficult one at home to be sure I could do it. Can you delay cutting for the guy till you do a dress rehearsal on similar stuff of your own?

   Good luck.

as far as extensions go I'm going to have 1500 to 2000 wrapped in it. Jack's extensions log locks etc... Tree felling I can do. I've cut, got the saws and experience with confidence. (Not being cocky about it either) not sure how I got signed up for that job but more than willing to do it. It's just more money for me. I don't have the big hook and didn't know it existed till you brought it up. I can't get my self in that same situation simply because of the length. Just have a problem spending more money in it to see how it will work for my self.  I understand it's a limb I must be willing to walk and hope it holds.

[reswire]

Would he be better off to sell those logs (possible veneer) and cut or find smaller logs to work with??

[WDH]

I believe that you are in over your head with your current capability.  I would walk away from it. 

[daltonk58]

double post

I'll add though if you really need the money or just want to do it, you've only lost the blood and sweat.

How long will your mill saw without extensions?

12'6" norwood  extensions come in 4' lengths. So I would need 2. Not so much as needing the money as much wanting it and getting my business rolling. A bad word will travel twice as fast as a good word if you know what I mean and being new I can't afford the bad word

[daltonk58]

I believe that you are in over your head with your current capability.  I would walk away from it.

so far that's the majority of what people say. Between friends and family.  I hate to do it. It honestly puts my stomach in knots to say sorry I can't but I don't want an upset customer nether.

[thecfarm]

Are you saying the logs are 3-4-5 feet across.    

[daltonk58]

According to the FF toolbox, the weight of a 18 foot 36 inch red oak log is 8142 pounds. You better have some mighty big support equipment.

I
I guessed it between 8 and 9000lbs. Now I quarter that out and I'm still over a ton a price and that's a lot to handle my self on a non hydraulic mill

[daltonk58]

Are you saying the logs are 3-4-5 feet across.

yes there are very few I could put on my mill that I wouldn't have to split

[daltonk58]

Would he be better off to sell those logs (possible veneer) and cut or find smaller logs to work with??

honestly I'm not a timber buyer or seller. But from my experience Ive cut grade and veneer and I don't think he has any veneer. Even if he did (just my opinion) he wouldn't sell simply because he wants his floor joist. I tried finding smaller trees trying to convince him it would be easier but found the big oaks and pecker poles. Hardly anything in between

[customsawyer]

Cutting the big logs will be tough if you don't have the right equipment. I cut 12x12x40' most of the time and have seen my fair share of big logs. If the customer wants that kind of logs sawed with the equipment you have I would work by the hour. Remember you are cutting 2x material 18' long. If you don't have roller tables and a edger you are going to need some back pain meds. How are you going to move the logs to the mill?

[daltonk58]

Cutting the big logs will be tough if you don't have the right equipment. I cut 12x12x40' most of the time and have seen my fair share of big logs. If the customer wants that kind of logs sawed with the equipment you have I would work by the hour. Remember you are cutting 2x material 18' long. If you don't have roller tables and a edger you are going to need some back pain meds. How are you going to move the logs to the mill?

he tells me he has he equipment for the job. Now I didn't see it nor did I ask about it.

[thecfarm]

WOW!! That will take some equipment to move those 3-4-5 foot across logs. I have done some 3 feet,16 feet with a 40hp tractor and a 3pt winch. I have done some 4 foot ones too,but only 10 feet long,did a few that was almost the 5 foot mark too,but again only 10 feet long. This was also white pine,which does not weight as much. Takes ALOT of room to bring down a tree that size. We use to cut a "road" for those big ones. And I do mean a road. Took some time to clean out a place for them to fall. But we was fussy with the land and trees too. I have no experience on sawing something that size. But cutting and logging,we did it for 3 years on my land. Takes a while to limb out those big ones too.

[customsawyer]

If those trees are growing at the edge of the woods, with woods on one side and open land on the other there is going to be some stress in them.  ;)

[red]

There are many other types of wood for floor joists .  Get some normal size logs 18-20 ft long

[red]

Careful about asking for sending Help . . The Chainsaw Carvers are in Ridgway PA this week they may want those 3 4 5 Pythagorean Theorem Logs

[WV Sawmiller]

Dalton,

   May be distasteful suggestion but you might consider sub-contracting or partnering with someone else in the area who has more robust equipment and experience. Work with, watch and learn from them and be more ready for the next job.

[Magicman]

I hate to do it. It honestly puts my stomach in knots to say sorry I can't but I don't want an upset customer nether.

The customer should respect the fact that you honestly are not equipped to do the job.  Even with my hydraulic sawmill, I would be very cautious to accept the job because I have sawn over 36" logs before and they are no fun.

[ncsawyer]

IMHO if the guy still wants his floor joists out of those 5ft diameter red oaks after you made him a price...then you priced the job too low.  In a situation like that I would price that job way high so that it would not be at all economical for him to mill his floor joists out of those logs...because its not! 

Now if he were to find some normal sized logs that I could handle it might become more economical for him to have his floor joists milled rather than buying them. 

[isawlogs]

 Way too big of a job for the mill you have, even quartered those peices of wood still need get on your mill, and you will need to turn them eventualy.... Just saying , it will be a heavy turn and peices are going to stretch your arms.
  There are much better jobs to earn money and experience without throwing your back doing them.   ;)

[Tree Dan]

Working with those big logs can also get you hurt. The logs for his job are way over sized...sugest smaller trees or walk away from the job.
Great way to wreck your mill when a chunk of that Oak falls on the bed.
Stay safe!

[4x4American]

With a sharp saw and a steady grasp it's not that bad to split red oak with a powersaw, long as you're getting paid.  Prolly be even better with 10° rip chain.  You can hand file to 10° or use a grinder.  I was just using regular cross cut chisel chain here and the 660 just went to town.  After opening up the muffler on it, the sound she makes just eats away at me  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCk9vF22Wb0

[kensfarm]

Big logs big problems..  you have to spend so much time & effort to just prepare them to be milled.. that's where the bulk of the time will be spent. 

I've seen some of the guys on the forum that can cut those huge logs w/ no problems.. they make it look easy..  but it's not. 

[Brad_bb]

What you are proposing is a whole lot more cost than I think he'd want to pay for floor joists.  It's too easy to underestimate the scope of the felling and splitting and moving of the material.  That is where you will lose, underestimating the time and work involved.  By the time you add the extra handling cost of felling and splitting and getting it on the mill, I doubt he'd want to pay that price for floor joists.  Nor do I think you'd want to eat any of that cost when you under bid it.  It would be one thing if you were at home and trying it for yourself, and a whole different thing to commit to a price not having the equipment or proper time factored in.

[sandsawmill14]

you have more money in your pocket now than you will after the job is finished even if you are able to finish it

[4x4American]

True, and you might wanna put a few more
months on the saw before you get to tackling big
stuff, especially on an onsite job.

[fishfighter]

Dalton,

   May be distasteful suggestion but you might consider sub-contracting or partnering with someone else in the area who has more robust equipment and experience. Work with, watch and learn from them and be more ready for the next job.

This for sure. Other then that, with a manual mill and logs that big, I would run fast.

[WV Sawmiller]

With a sharp saw and a steady grasp it's not that bad to split red oak with a powersaw, long as you're getting paid.  Prolly be even better with 10° rip chain.  You can hand file to 10° or use a grinder.  I was just using regular cross cut chisel chain here and the 660 just went to town.  After opening up the muffler on it, the sound she makes just eats away at me  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCk9vF22Wb0

4X,

   Yes it can be done but the trees he is describing are twice as big around and close to twice as long as the one shown on your video. I split an 8'6" white oak about 44" diameter a while back with a MS441 Sthil and a 24 inch bar, a new chain and finally pulled it apart with my 4 wheeler. I don't want to do it again. I am short on proper equipment and it nearly destroyed everything I had to move it. And when I went to cut it I do have hydraulics which lifted and turned the sections. When I got done, because of internal damage from the spliting when the storm blew it down, I only got a little over 100 bf of usable lumber.

   A 5' diameter tree is more like the main tree in this picture, not the 44" fork I have cut on the ground.



 

[Den-Den]

I have a manual mill and have cut 42 - 44" diameter oak after they were quartered but only 10 ft long.  I don't believe it is possible to turn a quarter like that with a cant hook (I had to use a winch on the 10' long quarters).  Quartered sections are MUCH more difficult to turn than equal weight rounds.  You will still be making wide cuts which require more frequent blade changes; a blade that will still cut 15" wide nice and flat may not be sharp enough to cut 24" wide.
The length capacity would be a good idea even if you don't take this job but if you do take it; your hourly wage will likely be low for some very hard work.

[Tom the Sawyer]

 

 

[Swamp Fox]

Sounds like more work than it's worth to me.

[alanh]

Im not an experienced miller but I`ve had the experience of cutting up some 3' X 16' pine on my non hydraulic mill, they only needed the butts trimmed and without our 580 Case backhoe with a 4 way loader bucket AND a 5000 lb forklift it would`ve been IMO, impossible.

[Ox]

There's nothing wrong with telling your customer that you made a mistake and after thinking a lot about it, you don't think you can handle those bigger logs.  Either he'll choose smaller trees or pay to have the big ones handled.  That being said, this job CAN be done by you.  It'll take massive amounts of time, energy, fuel, chains, etc.  Anything can be done if you throw enough time and money at it.  If you decide to do this job, I think getting paid by the hour would be better than by the board foot.  Most of your time will be in processing the massive logs in order to get them on your mill!  A nice sit down chat with your customer over a cup of coffee would be a nice way to start, perhaps.

[WV Sawmiller]

    Den-Den made a good point I meant to mention also. Turning quarters or halves is also going to be much harder than turning a round log. I seriously doubt any lone man is going to turn them by himself even with the supersized Logrite cant or peavey hook.

   Even handling the 2X10X18 boards are going to be a chore. Do you or the customer have a long trailer or big flatbed truck to haul them on? I've had customers order lumber they could not transport with the equipment they had. May not be your responsibility for the transport but you are going to have to move the boards and need to help advise the customer on such issues as part of your responsibility as the sawyer and functional area expert.

[Ianab]

Anybody local with a 10" capacity Swing blade mill that you could contract the sawing part too?

That will handle a job like that, probably without moving the logs from where they fall. You could subcontract the actual sawing, and add your charges for the felling / prep work and working as an off-bearer.

Still going to be hard work, but at least you then have the right machine for the job.

[4x4American]

I kinda missed the 3, 4, and 5 foot part, and didn't realize it was a manual mill...I would try and find him a guy with a swing blade mill like Ianab reccommended. Or a mobile dimension.  That sounds like wayy too much effort for nuttin special..

[Peter Drouin]

It is a big job. Tell him you will do it by the hour. Like $175.00, $200.00. Get some of your buddies and pay them $15.00 an hour. 2 or 3 of them. Have them bring there saws. Buy new saw chains for there saws. Have them wear the safety stuff too, If they don't have it get it for them. You can take the price of the stuff out of there pay.
Tell him he is responable for the equipment to move the logs.
Get $1,500 or more to start.

I bet the trees have gone buy and are junk on the in side [the butt log]
And at the end of every week get payed, So when you go home you are even with him.
If he don't like your turms, tell him Have a nice day and go do something else. :D
Keep in mind, you want to make the customer happy but your the BOSS and you don't work for free.   

[daltonk58]

Hey guys sorry I'm just not replying. It was a long day at work.... I read every one's opinions and thoughts, took them seriously and have my mind made up. I think it's too much for me to take on at this point. Lack of equipment/knowledge/ etc. It's frustrating on myself because I love a good challenge and rarely say no to much anything. But I don't want to screw anything up for him as far as lumber goes and more importantly I don't want a bad reputation. Thanks for all the input it really was a lot of help.

[WV Sawmiller]

   Hard decision but I think your reputation will be rewarded accordingly. Good luck.

[sandsawmill14]

dalton that is a wise decision you could probably handle 36" logs in shorter lengths but you can destroy a good sawmill with logs that size and you cant make any money on them either i have sawn a bunch of them up to 44-48" but i rolled a 12' pin oak off in the woods a while back that was over 60" in the biggest spot where the limbs grew around it at about 7' up from but it was still about 50" at the little end. told the boss i wasnt going to spend a day and a half sawing pallet stock out of something like that ;D there should be some pics in my gallery

[jtflynn]

Dalton.....you made a good choice

[4x4American]

You never lose money on a job you don't take.

[lshobie]

 

 

My crawler loader barely picked up this 14 footer - 18 inches at the butt - red oak.  it lifted the log and the hydraulics would settle to the ground without lever input.  your mill will collapse under the weight of bigger ones and youll never get it straight again.   I bought an alaskan mill to mill these up.

Have fun!

[WDH]

I swear off really big logs every time I try to saw them  .  My 56 HP tractor limits the size of log that I can pick up and move.  If i can't pick it up with the tractor, I will not mill it. 

[Swamp Fox]

I think you made the right choice. That feeling that was making you nervous is your instincts telling you don't do it. I wish I had listened to mine more.

[outpost22]

I admire you for taking the voice of experience (guys here) and listening to it.  That puts you one step ahead of me when I was 26. I lost 10K on a job due to inexperience and took years to recover from it.  That lesson later saved me probably 100K in the future as I never repeated it.  Just be glad YOU saved the 10K before a hard lesson was learned  :embarassed:

[Brucer]

I've turned down jobs that I thought were beyond my capability -- but I always told the customer exactly why. In a couple of cases the customers came up with alternatives that worked for both of us. The rest respected my decision.

I also once took on a job that was a little past the capabilities of my manual mill. Before I agreed to do the job I told the customer I wasn't sure my mill could handle it, but the only way to find out was to give it a try. He liked my attitude. As it turned out, I got the job done -- took a week to do but it felt like I'd done a month's worth of work. That led to a 5-year working relationship, plus a new hydraulic mill ;D.

It really helps to do the job on paper first -- what steps are you going to take, what equipment will you need, how will you ensure your (and your mill's) safety? How long will it take? What could go wrong?