End tables update o2/07/16

[Dan_Shade]

If you taper the legs,  it will really make your table look classy

[ScottAR]

I thought that might cause some debate...  :D

[Dodgy Loner]

I thought that might cause some debate...  :D

Most guys like this are just blowing smoke up people's butt's to take advantage of hopeful aspiring artisans. I personally know a woodcarver who has a blog with an e-book that he wrote entitled something like "How to Have Your First $10,000 Month Selling Your Crafts". The answer to which, if he were honest, would be "Save up six months' of work and sell it all at once." The guy is definitely not raking in $120,000/year...or even a quarter of that...but there is always a market of the gullible for the unscrupulous to take advantage of. I'm reminded of a quote by P.T. Barnum...

[Bruno of NH]

I can't make that kind of money doing my regular job as an self employed carpenter .
I know I might not make out with the woodworking projects but it's better than doing nothing .
I have all the materials and most of the supplies .

[Dodgy Loner]

I can't make that kind of money doing my regular job as an self employed carpenter .

Nor should you expect too. I think your pricing on this table is perfectly reasonable. It's up to you to be able to make them efficiently enough to earn money. If you find that you sell them so fast that you can't make enough to satisfy demand, that will be your cue to raise your prices. Here's the million dollar question when it comes to pricing craft work: If you double your prices, will you sell half as many? If the answer is yes...well then, you do the math.

[Magicman]

I refuse to take that kind of cut in pay.     ;D

[landscraper]

I can't make that kind of money doing my regular job as an self employed carpenter .

Nor should you expect too.

Why shouldn't he expect to? ;)

[venice]

He is an craftsman not an artist.  ;)

[venice]

The value of craftsmanship is declining fast. In the age of Ikea and automatization the underlying skills are not valued anymore. Become an artist. You dont have to change anything but your marketing.

venice

[venice]

I agree on the under priced part.   This pricing structure seems interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu_qFDanGPY

This guy focuses way to much on pricing himself. You don't determine what you or your craft are worth, the market does. It's your job to figure out and influence how the market values your work. You can't just say "My day rate is $500/day" and price accordingly. That's a recipe for failure.

I want to contest that! He is right on in my opinion. But you have to have the skills. If not, if your approach does not work, rethink. That's what he's saying. Right on.

And yes, everyones time and expertise has an value. Sell it accordingly. That's his message and i agree.

venice

[Dodgy Loner]

I agree on the under priced part.   This pricing structure seems interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu_qFDanGPY

This guy focuses way to much on pricing himself. You don't determine what you or your craft are worth, the market does. It's your job to figure out and influence how the market values your work. You can't just say "My day rate is $500/day" and price accordingly. That's a recipe for failure.

I want to contest that! He is right on in my opinion. But you have to have the skills. If not, if your approach does not work, rethink. That's what he's saying. Right on.

And yes, everyones time and expertise has an value. Sell it accordingly. That's his message and i agree.

venice

You're welcome to contest whatever you want, but the bottom line is that nobody cares how much time you spent on anything. It's about what you make, not how long it took you to make it. It ain't about you, it's about the market, i.e. what it's worth to other people. You can influence their opinions, and you should, but ultimately it's always about the market.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Put whatever price you wanna put on your work....its your wagon.
The customer will tell you if you have priced it right or not.

[jueston]

Put whatever price you wanna put on your work....its your wagon.
The customer will tell you if you have priced it right or not.

those are the facts... thats why i follow your lead and go with $300 for every item! 

there is a swanky little art gallery in a swanky part of town near me that sells some wooden boxes and cutting boards for incredible prices. the stuff is beautiful, but i just know i could never sell anything for those prices. but the fact that the store has been there for years tells me they have found the market for those items at those prices, because otherwise they would have closed by now....

the store is probably putting a 50%-70% markup on the items, but if they have figured out how to attract the right kind of clients, and purchase the right kind of goods, then they deserve every cent.

i just like to go in the store and marvel at the pretty things with high price tags to remind myself that somewhere out there are the people who really value craftsmanship.

counterintuitively, luxury items often sell better at higher prices, because the price makes people believe there is value in it. a marketing teacher often told the same story about a small perfume company that was failing and brought in a industry consultant to give them feedback, the consultant recommended taking all there products off the shelf for a month and then releasing all the same products with triple the price tag with labels that said "special limited edition" on them. and the company did really well after that. the marketing teacher used this as an example of how sometimes people associate price with value, so when something is priced low, it must be low quality, when it is priced high, it must be high quality...

the same principle was true for blank VHS tapes(which i barely remember), when you went to the store, they had 3 different qualities and 3 different price points. but i have been told they were all the exact same tape, they just changed the packaging and many people would buy the more expensive ones because they felt they were getting more value...

[Dodgy Loner]

Put whatever price you wanna put on your work....its your wagon.
The customer will tell you if you have priced it right or not.

those are the facts... thats why i follow your lead and go with $300 for every item! 

there is a swanky little art gallery in a swanky part of town near me that sells some wooden boxes and cutting boards for incredible prices. the stuff is beautiful, but i just know i could never sell anything for those prices. but the fact that the store has been there for years tells me they have found the market for those items at those prices, because otherwise they would have closed by now....

the store is probably putting a 50%-70% markup on the items, but if they have figured out how to attract the right kind of clients, and purchase the right kind of goods, then they deserve every cent.

i just like to go in the store and marvel at the pretty things with high price tags to remind myself that somewhere out there are the people who really value craftsmanship.

counterintuitively, luxury items often sell better at higher prices, because the price makes people believe there is value in it. a marketing teacher often told the same story about a small perfume company that was failing and brought in a industry consultant to give them feedback, the consultant recommended taking all there products off the shelf for a month and then releasing all the same products with triple the price tag with labels that said "special limited edition" on them. and the company did really well after that. the marketing teacher used this as an example of how sometimes people associate price with value, so when something is priced low, it must be low quality, when it is priced high, it must be high quality...

the same principle was true for blank VHS tapes(which i barely remember), when you went to the store, they had 3 different qualities and 3 different price points. but i have been told they were all the exact same tape, they just changed the packaging and many people would buy the more expensive ones because they felt they were getting more value...

Marketing is a very funny thing. The objects and setting surrounding your crafts have as much influence on their perceived value as the actual quality of your work. Is your stuff in a swanky gallery with big price tags? Consumers are going to believe that it's worth more. But that setting comes with a price tag. You'll give 40% of your sales to the gallery. Put the same item in a flea market surrounded by cheap imported plastic rubbish and rusty junk, suddenly the perceived value of your work is by half or more. You can complain about it, but you are influenced the same way, whether you realize it or not.

[landscraper]

You're welcome to contest whatever you want, but the bottom line is that nobody cares how much time you spent on anything. It's about what you make, not how long it took you to make it. It ain't about you, it's about the market, i.e. what it's worth to other people. You can influence their opinions, and you should, but ultimately it's always about the market.

Dodgy,

I've seen some of the beautiful furniture you make and post here in the Woodworking forum.  Is that your profession, i.e. do you build to sell for a living?  I wouldn't necessarily buy some of the pieces, because they might not be to my taste, or maybe out of my price range, but I can quickly recognize that they could be of significant value to someone who values that type and quality of work.  What would your recent Tavern Table "cost" to buy if you fairly accounted for the value of your time, skill, materials, and profit.  What would the market think it should cost, and if the two prices differ, is there a clear reason why?  If you don't want to say, I understand.   I've spent the last 25 years analyzing cost and profit in my own work, and I am always interested in how other people look at it.

[jueston]

Put whatever price you wanna put on your work....its your wagon.
The customer will tell you if you have priced it right or not.

those are the facts... thats why i follow your lead and go with $300 for every item! 

there is a swanky little art gallery in a swanky part of town near me that sells some wooden boxes and cutting boards for incredible prices. the stuff is beautiful, but i just know i could never sell anything for those prices. but the fact that the store has been there for years tells me they have found the market for those items at those prices, because otherwise they would have closed by now....

the store is probably putting a 50%-70% markup on the items, but if they have figured out how to attract the right kind of clients, and purchase the right kind of goods, then they deserve every cent.

i just like to go in the store and marvel at the pretty things with high price tags to remind myself that somewhere out there are the people who really value craftsmanship.

counterintuitively, luxury items often sell better at higher prices, because the price makes people believe there is value in it. a marketing teacher often told the same story about a small perfume company that was failing and brought in a industry consultant to give them feedback, the consultant recommended taking all there products off the shelf for a month and then releasing all the same products with triple the price tag with labels that said "special limited edition" on them. and the company did really well after that. the marketing teacher used this as an example of how sometimes people associate price with value, so when something is priced low, it must be low quality, when it is priced high, it must be high quality...

the same principle was true for blank VHS tapes(which i barely remember), when you went to the store, they had 3 different qualities and 3 different price points. but i have been told they were all the exact same tape, they just changed the packaging and many people would buy the more expensive ones because they felt they were getting more value...

Marketing is a very funny thing. The objects and setting surrounding your crafts have as much influence on their perceived value as the actual quality of your work. Is your stuff in a swanky gallery with big price tags? Consumers are going to believe that it's worth more. But that setting comes with a price tag. You'll give 40% of your sales to the gallery. Put the same item in a flea market surrounded by cheap imported plastic rubbish and rusty junk, suddenly the perceived value of your work is by half or more. You can complain about it, but you are influenced the same way, whether you realize it or not.

i'm not trying to complain, i aspire to get my work in said swanky gallery, the more outlets i can find the less time i have to spend selling the work myself. some people are naturals at marketing and sales and really enjoy it. i enjoy making things and if i couldn't sell anything, i would probably just give everything i make away as gifts, because i would want to make it just the same.

[Dodgy Loner]

i'm not trying to complain, i aspire to get my work in said swanky gallery, the more outlets i can find the less time i have to spend selling the work myself. some people are naturals at marketing and sales and really enjoy it. i enjoy making things and if i couldn't sell anything, i would probably just give everything i make away as gifts, because i would want to make it just the same.

Ah, my apologies for being ambiguous, jueston. When I said "you can complain about it" I wasn't referring to you specifically, but rather using it as the nebulous, second-person "you" referring to pretty much anyone in particular. I hope you find success getting your stuff into swanky galleries

[Dodgy Loner]

You're welcome to contest whatever you want, but the bottom line is that nobody cares how much time you spent on anything. It's about what you make, not how long it took you to make it. It ain't about you, it's about the market, i.e. what it's worth to other people. You can influence their opinions, and you should, but ultimately it's always about the market.

Dodgy,

I've seen some of the beautiful furniture you make and post here in the Woodworking forum.  Is that your profession, i.e. do you build to sell for a living?  I wouldn't necessarily buy some of the pieces, because they might not be to my taste, or maybe out of my price range, but I can quickly recognize that they could be of significant value to someone who values that type and quality of work.  What would your recent Tavern Table "cost" to buy if you fairly accounted for the value of your time, skill, materials, and profit.  What would the market think it should cost, and if the two prices differ, is there a clear reason why?  If you don't want to say, I understand.   I've spent the last 25 years analyzing cost and profit in my own work, and I am always interested in how other people look at it.

No, landscraper, I'm not a "full-timer" by any means. I'm employed full-time as a forester/analyst. I supplement my income with my hobby, and I would guess only about 10% of my income over the past 3 years has come from woodworking-related sales. I'm sure some will dismiss my opinions out of hand because of that. That's okay, I can still write what I think even if no one finds value in it (kind of like making crafts ;)) I have dreams of one day being a full-timer, so I think about these things a lot...even if my dreams never come to pass...

Asking me to analyze the value of the tavern table is a bit of a rabbit hole, but I'm happy to talk about it. If I could sell a table like this for $1,000-1,200 (minus the carved drawer bottom, that was only for my own edification) and have a ready market for them, I could make a living at it, no problem.

How long did the table take? I mentioned in that thread that I started on a Friday afternoon and finished on Sunday evening. But that's fudging things, the honest truth is that I worked from 5:30 PM to 3 AM on Friday night only stopping for a half hour of supper; back at work from 10 AM to 1 AM on Saturday with maybe 1.5 hours of breaks; then 10 AM to 10 PM on Sunday, with an hour-long break. So that's almost 30 hours of work over two and a half days.

I would kill myself if I worked that hard all the time. Factor in another 8 hour day (spread out over several evenings) to complete the painted finish, and that makes 38 hours. I'm sure that if I were working full-time and well-practiced, I could eventually reduce the build time to 30 hours. A 50-hour week seems reasonable for a self-employed craftsman, so this table would take 3 full workdays, start to finish.

Figure 240 workdays a year. $1000 every 3 workdays. That's $72,000. Of course not all of that is profit. Subtract out materials, self-employment taxes, healthcare, missed workdays due to illness, etc. and you're looking at maybe $40,000/year. That's reasonable. I could happily live on that. It would be nice to earn more, but this table doesn't require some other-wordly level of skill. It's pretty simple. Neat and workmanlike, but simple. More complex projects would call for a higher day rate. So $1,000 for this table sounds pretty reasonable, $1,200 would allow for a little more wiggle room. Presumably, as you become more experienced/well-known as a craftsman, the market value of your work goes up as well as your efficiency, creating an increasing level of income over time, so this hypothetical paints a good starting point. At least, that's how it's supposed to work...


Now, what do I feel like the table is worth on the "market"? I feel like I would be lucky to find a willing buyer for $600, to be honest. I know there are many people out there who would be willing to pay more, the trouble is finding them (or getting them to find me). I'm sure could probably find them, if I tried hard enough. But would I find enough of them to make these things day-in, day-out for a price that I find acceptable? There's your problem. I could do lots of marketing to find these folks, but every layer of marketing adds another layer of cost.

Just as an example, have a look at this website. This is a small, boutique furniture manufacturer in Maine. I've been to their showroom. They turn out nice work. It's not world-class, but it's well-built and DanG sure nicer than the stuff at Ashley Furniture. But it is ultimately a small factory, and they don't lavish attention on their furniture half as much as I do. It's all machined, very little handwork, and to the experienced observer, it shows (that doesn't matter to everybody, but it matters to me and it would have to matter to my clients).

I found one table on their website that is of a similar size to mine (though of a different aesthetic). It sells for $2600. That table is actually quite a bit simpler than mine. The turnings are not as ornate, and there are no stretchers to join. The clear finish is far less work than a painted finish. I could make it in 3 days without a hiccup. I would be very, very happy if I could sell that table for that price. But I can't. They spend God-knows how much on their fancy showroom, their commercial-grade equipment, their sales team, their website. The people who buy from them spend as much on marketing as they do on craftsmanship. I don't begrudge them for it, though, I'm just not interested in that sort of thing.

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

[beenthere]

Why are we quoting everything... rather than sorting out what a specific part of the long quote is important to the reply?  Just curious...

[landscraper]

Dodgy,

Thanks for the walk-through of your process and thoughts, it fills out the background behind your previous posts.  Typically the more time a skilled craftsman has in making an object the nicer/better it is.  The nicer/better it is the more it should sell for, right?  Unfortunately there is a diminishing return on the craftsman's time because of semi-equivalent alternatives.  Most potential customers are cost conscious and paying $1,200 for a very nice table that Dodgy Loner made is not going to happen when they can go to the retail store and buy a semi-equivalent one for $400.00.  Most of them can't really tell the difference between the two anyway, which is why they are "semi-equivalent".  When your product or service has no few or no alternatives (like some of those Tule Peak pieces), you may have a smaller target audience because of your price point, but they are more discerning of quality, and more likely to close the deal.  Marketing quality crafted or artisan wares at a value that is fair to the artist is challenging no doubt. 

My opinion of the end tables was that $75 was too low by half, assuming that there are consumers with disposable income at the market. 

[thecfarm]

Route 1 in Maine is a tourist trap. I wonder how much of thier stuff finds it way to FL and them saying,look at the nice chair I bought in Maine!!  :

[Dodgy Loner]

Typically the more time a skilled craftsman has in making an object the nicer/better it is.  The nicer/better it is the more it should sell for, right?  Unfortunately there is a diminishing return on the craftsman's time because of semi-equivalent alternatives.  Most potential customers are cost conscious and paying $1,200 for a very nice table that Dodgy Loner made is not going to happen when they can go to the retail store and buy a semi-equivalent one for $400.00.

This is a great point and definitely one that I've come to realize. For each additional hour you spend on a piece, each additional dollar you ask for a price, you reduce your potential market by that much more. The problem (for me) is that it gets to be boring and repetitive to build simple, inexpensive pieces and selling them for a price that a wider market will bear. As a craftsman, I want to lavish attention on the details, but that's only possible and profitable if you have a market that is willing to pay for that attention. It exists, but it is comparatively small.

My competition is not so much the $400 factory-made piece, but rather the antique store. You can get a similar 19th- or early 20th-century table for anywhere between $100 and $1000, depending upon the quality and condition. But if you want an authentic early 18th-century tavern table, then you can expect to pay several thousand dollars for it. That's where I come in - I can build an authentic reproduction with the same methods for a fraction of the cost. If you can't look at my tavern table and know immediately that it's 18th-century furniture in the British tradition - if you don't bother to look under the aprons and see that the drawbore pins are real (not just shallow pegs), or that I used hand-forged nails to hold the drawer runners in place, or that the top board is a single piece - well, you're probably not the type of person who is going to look at this table and see $1200 of value. I'm okay with that. I'm not the sort of person who can look at a BMW and see $60,000 worth of value, yet I see a dozen of them on the road every day. We all have our interests.

[Dodgy Loner]

Route 1 in Maine is a tourist trap. I wonder how much of thier stuff finds it way to FL and them saying,look at the nice chair I bought in Maine!!  :

I don't want to diminish the work that that shop produces. It is high-quality work. The problem is that you can get higher-quality work from an individual craftsman, for a similar or lesser price. But that shop is highly visible and spends a lot of money on marketing, while craftsman are busy making things of tangible value.

[thecfarm]

I'm was not down playing thier work,never seen it and would not know if it was good or bad. Just saying,as you are,I think,there is a LOT of traffic on that road. I have really only been in that mess a few times. Quicker to just get out of the car and walk.  :D
I am trying to say someone will come up here and buy a chair and think it's great and you are right there and they don't even know you are there or notice you.

[Bruno of NH]

I sold a table today for $75.00 and got a $5.00 tip .
It sold from pics I put on my face book page
Bruno