To cantilever or to not cantilever

[wisconsitom]

Alright, looking at roughly 250 YouTube videos of various band saw rigs, from Hudson and Harbor Freight (not gonna go there) to real nice stuff called WM, Cook, TimberKing, etc....I have seen reps for some of these companies...speaking negatively of one of these other companies units because of the fact the carriage is supported on just the one side....no 4 posts or beyond.  

I also notice this well-known company with highly automated, but cantilevered units, seems to cut like a EDITED BY ADMIN.  Real efficient-looking in videos.  Not saying the other companies' stuff doesn't also appear to perform well, but that cantilevered thing really looks impressive.

So...I know we can't come down with the one true "answer" here, but I ask for opinions from folks more experienced than I:  Do you, or do you not, think it's OK to design what is after all a fairly expensive tool with that amount of weight supported on the one side, as in this company's offerings on the higher end.

Thanks,
tom

[Southside]

Well, they have been selling them since the early 80's and there are several members on here that are still running that vintage, so I would say it's a proven design. 

[Magicman]

On the cantilever (Wood-Mizer) sawmill there are still two rails and four supports.  The difference is that one rail and two of the supports are on the underside of the main beam.  Both the "4 post" and the cantilever style sawmills are tried and proven to produce a quality product so don't be scared off from either technology.  Both work very well.  There are no shortcoming, real or imagined, concerning the cantilever head sawmill.

I have sawn many odd shaped logs with irregularities that I would not have been able to saw with a 4 post without some chainsaw work.  As it was, I was able to hang the irregularity or hump or whatever off to the side (under the cantilevered head) and successfully saw.

Couple of examples:


 


 
Both of the above pictured logs were huge but I was able to turn the log so that the cantilever head passed and I was able to saw both of them without any chainsaw work or waste.

[wisconsitom]

Good to know, Magicman (electric Al?).  Yes, I see and see the WM cant'ed units sawing and sawing away, sometimes appearing to be  considerably faster than competitor's units right next to them, in shootouts, etc.  And your point about fitting odd-shaped pieces makes sense.

tom

[WV Sawmiller]

    I only have a little over 550 hours on mine but I love the design. I am disappointed in at least one of the major brands who apparently make a good machine but criticize the WM cantilever design. I have watched even the WM 4 head mill in operation and I prefer the cantilever design of my mill for ease of access. I can easily unload my mill from either end and either side as the situation dictates. The 4 head design looked to be in the way to me. From what i see the 4 head design seems to require the mill to be leveled every time while mine is pretty forgiving if I have a little slope one way or another. That is a pretty important factor in terrain like where I saw.

   Instead of worrying about the criticisms of the competition wanting to make a sale go compare the lumber produced and ease of production and make up your own mine. I have not seen WM criticizing other peoples mills - they don't need to.

[Crossroads]

My first mill was a woodmizer lt30 manual made in 1984. When I upgraded to a hydraulic mill, the one that followed me home was the same design with 35 years of improvements made to the accessories, but the cantilevered head was the same. 

[Southside]

For what it's worth if you have ever been to a shipyard watch how some install the super structures and other MASSIVE one piece units - they will use a cantilever crane to do so, the WM head weight on my Super 70 is lighter than a single shackle on these things, so it's all in the engineering.   

[timbercrack]

I purchased my TK last year for 2 reasons. 1 - My brother owned one years ago and I had over 1K hours experience with it. 2 - The one I now own was only 20 minutes away when I stumbled across it on CL. Thats it. Notice I did not mention the 4 post carriage as one of my reasons? Thats because a friend of mine owns an early 90's WM cant carriage that I have several hours experience with. Had a WM come up for sale only 20 minutes from my house, I would probably own it now. Both machines are equal in my opinion. As stated above, look at production and what fits your own needs...

[wisconsitom]

Heh, I live in the land of big shipyards.  Many a crane have I seen.  But what I...or rather, that rep from the competing firm....was getting at, I think, was not sudden catastrophic failure.  I think they were saying that over time, wear and tear would throw things out of plumb.  Not so much the whole works tipping over and crashing to the floor.  Just sawing lousy lumber.

Yet I take yours and the others' words to heart.  It really does seem the WM units are solid and efficient.

Thanks,
tom

[Jeff]

wear and tear would throw things out of plumb.

As with any machine made by god or mankind.

[mike_belben]

Theres probably a million excavators on planet earth.  Theyre pretty cantilevered too if ya think about it.  Good thing because a 4 post digger would be awkward!


If you build your own cantilever mill, balance will be a critical design feature.  If the overhang of the saw head is not fairly well balanced then the upright will be a lever to magnify this imbalance and apply a rotational torque to the main track tube.  Like putting a bicycle crank at 12oclock and pushing down, vs at 3 oclock and pushing down.  Round tubes are best at resisting torsional loads hence their 100% domination of the driveline industry, while square and rectangular shapes are more rigid along an unsupported span than round tube.   If the head was badly unbalanced, it would try to twist the track as you travelled down the center.  Clearly WM has figured out where to put the weight. 

I bet they use that design to use less material and reduce the tendency for 4 posts to not be square during fab.  If youve ever had to fabricate a precision machine table, youd find that nothing remains square unless anchored to a massive weld platten or jig and/or pre and post heated or even flycut or blanchard ground afterward which is all time consuming and spendy.  I think the single post heads are probably a lot easier to weld up and align than to weld up a 4 post square, or build in the means to compensate at all corners.  That'd be a lot of tramming. 

[ladylake]

 
 If I was building a mill it would be a 4 post as its way simpler to build and keep aligned.  Far as big logs with a hump the new TK mills have 16" above the blade and the blade goes 36" above the deck so you cut off a 50" plus hump on a log.  Far as setup all mills have to be supported good or your not sawing good lumber, no mill is so strong it not going to twist or why even have supports.   Steve

[trapper]

I am only about 30 miles from you if you want to play with my 87 lt30
when it warms up a bit. Also woodmizer has an open house near wausau in the spring.

[beav]

Cantilever sawheads are a poor design= fake news

[wisconsitom]

Thanks Trapper.  i may take you up on that offer....but not this weekend!  Also, that WM show in Wausau would be easy for me to attend.  thanks.

tom

[Woodpecker52]

Reminds me of the argument over which is better, a walker or a cane!

[barbender]

When 4 post manufacturers point to the cantilever head as a design flaw or weak point, I stop listening.

[Two Trax]

Both proven designs. When I was looking for a used mill I would have bought either, ended up with a TimberKing because it was a nice clean quality mill at a price that suited me, plus it was only 50 miles away.

That said I do like simple things and prefer the simplicity of the hydraulics on the TimberKing. I also like not having to walk back and forth with the carriage. My thoughts, others may think differently.

[ladylake]

When 4 post manufacturers point to the cantilever head as a design flaw or weak point, I stop listening.

I seem to remember that it has been pointed out by a certain manufacture  that twin rails mills flex, are hard to set up  and are hard to off bear so that argument goes both ways. Every mill flexes , my TK sets up and down fast , customers like off bearing better than the mills they used to have saw for them.  Steve

[YellowHammer]

I am a stickler for sawing accuracy.  I've owned two WM mills, and built a business off them, with a reputation for sawing high quality boards.  I am a total pain if things aren't working correctly of accurately, and would buy another cantilever head mill again, with no reservations.  Mine has been virtually trouble free and I run it almost every day.

I would also buy some of the other mills, especially TK and Baker as I know people who make a living off them and love them. I toured the Baker facility, their 4 post high production mill is a beast.  Baker uses their products in their own onsite production facility, and if they aren't working they are losing money.   

As far as reliability, at least one guy here in the Forum, Customsawyer, I believe last year alone milled better than 2 million boardfeet on his LT70. 

Personally, I am convinced the cantilever head is perfectly fine, very accurate, easy maintenance.  If it wasn't I wouldn't own it.  Simple as that.  I am also convinced the 4 heads are excellent, as well. With that being said, when investing a big chunk of change on a mill, the decision will mostly come down to personal preference about the layout, the controls, etc, not accuracy or reliability. So watching and preferably running a few of the different brands would be worth the effort.   

[Dave Shepard]

When 4 post manufacturers point to the cantilever head as a design flaw or weak point, I stop listening.

I seem to remember that it has been pointed out by a certain manufacture  that twin rails mills flex, are hard to set up  and are hard to off bear so that argument goes both ways. Every mill flexes , my TK sets up and down fast , customers like off bearing better than the mills they used to have saw for them.  Steve

The difference is, twin rail mills do flex. The cantilever mills don't have the problems that the competition says they do. So, one company is advertising an advantage, the other is pushing their propaganda. 

[Jeff]

This has been covered countless times here over two decades. I can see no benefit of the back and forth happening again. Many times it ends up someone saying something that they shouldn't and then I get called in. So, I think that it would benefit the original poster of this topic to just use the forum search to find what was hashed on time and time again for this line of conversation.

[wisconsitom]

No worries Jeff.  As a "new guy" here, I'm learning the ropes of this forum....and do now see many past threads of similar nature.  But  think I've got it right here....and don't see any squabbling.

tom

[WV Sawmiller]

I also like not having to walk back and forth with the carriage. My thoughts, others may think differently.

Part of the reason I bought a mill was go get out more and get some exercise doing something I enjoyed so walking with the mill is a plus for me. There are people on this site with WM mills who choose the stationary and wireless heads and some unnamed members even have the seat and ride. :D Actually since I mostly work alone the seat option would be a negative factor for me but it works great for others. You just have to consider your reasons for buying or building a mill and what you plan to cut and buy/build accordingly. Good luck.

[Two Trax]

I also like not having to walk back and forth with the carriage. My thoughts, others may think differently.

Part of the reason I bought a mill was go get out more and get some exercise doing something I enjoyed so walking with the mill is a plus for me. There are people on this site with WM mills who choose the stationary and wireless heads and some unnamed members even have the seat and ride. :D Actually since I mostly work alone the seat option would be a negative factor for me but it works great for others. You just have to consider your reasons for buying or building a mill and what you plan to cut and buy/build accordingly. Good luck.


Hello WV Sawmiller! Anyone that chooses to get and run a mill is in for plenty of exercise no matter what mill you choose! I will likely be milling by myself much of the time. So far unloading the mill and rolling logs on the lift gets me plenty of exercise without chasing the carriage every cut on top of it. I am over 60 also so not quite as ambitious as I used to be! Lol, you will get there!  8)