Ash and Hickory values

Good Feller · September 27, 2008, 08:29:19 PM

I started marking my first timber sale today. I didn't realize there was so much hickory and ash in my landowner's timber. I marked them if they were over 18dbh. Is this ok or am I going to get laughed at when the loggers come to look? I know hickory and ash are not a real high dollar species,,, just wondering.

Also, if you have a clump of 2-4 trees growing up out of the same stump is it ok to cut one of them??? What I mean is will the wound left by the tree you cut affect the remaining trees? There were a few ashes I marked today that were growing up like that and I wondered if I should just mark the whole clump? Thanks

Ron Scott · September 28, 2008, 10:46:07 AM

What are the landowner objectives for the woodland?

Selectively mark in all diameter classes, not just the 18" and over. Remove the "worst first".

What species and size are most of the clump trees?

Hans1 · September 28, 2008, 02:52:55 PM

I have had good luck with both of those species very local to you. We have been getting about .05 more than pallet to a new mill who needs tie logs. He is not real critical of form. The mill is just south of blakesburg and is owned by Wade Force. He will take anything execpt cottonwood. I sent him about 15 loads this summer and he is very good to deal with.

Ron Wenrich · September 28, 2008, 04:56:00 PM

The biggest problem with clump trees is the form. A lot of times they don't have a centered heart, and that can make the difference between veneer log and saw log.

Ash lumber is a little hard to move, but hickory has had a bit of a resurgence for us. But, just because a species is not a real high dollar value shouldn't sway your marking technique. As stated, worst first. Using dollar value as a marking standard is high grading. Take the best, leave the rest type of thinking. You need to balance a sale so that there is enough good quality to subsidize the taking of the poor quality.

The residual stand should be trees that are worthwhile to grow. To get growth, you need to have room for crown expansion, and a tree that is healthy enough to take advantage of that. When you're marking, look at your crowns as well as the boles. Look up.

Good Feller · September 28, 2008, 05:32:58 PM

He's concerned about wildlife (deer and turkey). He told me if he only gets $40 bucks for a big white oak, that we should leave it for it's wildlife value. This guy is in his late 50's so it's probably the only timber harvest he's going to have. The "clump trees" are all ash (15-18"). So does cutting one out of the clump adversely affect the remaining trees?

I have tried to mark the worst stuff. The stand had been previously marked by a logger. I could definatley tell he didn't have regeneration in mind. I cancelled out his paint on several oaks and walnut.

I marked a nice walnut that had the entire top broken out of it from last winter's ice storm. I marked a couple trees that were in danger of falling into the large stream he has flowing through his property. If a good one looked like it was holding the bank I left it. I tried to use common sense while doing this.

I really don't understand this marking trees 10-15" dbh..... Isn't that like killing babies? :-\ I guess I could understand doing it if they were trees on a poor site(like they'd been there for 60 years and hadn't put on any girth). In general, I don't think cutting them is very good stewardship... not to mention how many loggers want to waste their time doing it???? Sounds like a lot of effort for not much volume.

I was always told that sawlogs aren't financially mature until the 16-18" range. 18" is when economics kick in. Anything over this 18" range and you are getting a good rate of return. People that harvest their trees before this are missing out on the time period when trees are gaining the maximum rate of return.
The longer you let them go over 18" you are also increasing your risk. If there's a 22" tree out there we could take it today or get greedy and wait.

If I seen nice oaks or walnuts at the 18-19" range I tried not to mark them. I'm definatley not marking anything smaller than 18" on the oaks as there is not a lot of regeneration. I didn't mark anything smaller than 18" on the walnut unless it was damaged or not great form.

If there was anything over 22-24" I marked them, especially if they had good formed replacements near by. If there was a knarly walnut 27" in dbh and an 18" straight as a string walnut growing side by side,,,, I'd mark the 27". They don't get a whole lot bigger than that. It is stupid to leave it.

There were only a couple hickory and ash larger than 16-18". There's a ton of them and they are all small (8-15"dbh).

Overall I feel good about how I marked this. It was my first time. I know I marked it better than the logger ( I atleast kept regeneration,wildlife, and water quality in mind). That's what foresters are for right?

Ron Wenrich · September 28, 2008, 06:21:33 PM

You are falling into the same trap as a lot of other people. Diameter has nothing to do with the age of the tree. There are a lot of variables that go into growing a tree. But, you can have a 60 year old tree that is only 4" in diameter. Is that considered a baby tree? Do you think that will respond to release? Putting a dollar value on a tree really isn't good management.

Although the smaller diameter trees don't compete with a dominant tree for sunlight, they do compete for nutrients and water. That is one reason to take out the smaller trees, and favor a larger tree to get another 10-20 years growth.

The stand you are describing will probably be taken over by the hickory after all the sawtimber is removed. If you want oak regeneration, you're going to have to do some sort of shelterwood cutting. That means you're going to have to get rid of the hickory in the understory. Those hickory are a seed source.

Financial maturity is a bit overrated, in my opinion. They start talking about rates of return, and "financial maturity". Your largest increase in value is when a tree goes from pulpwood to sawtimber. To capture that value increase, should we cut trees right after they move into that diameter class since you can't get that rate of return by taking the tree forward?

Which will yield more money - 10¢ at 5% or $1 at 2%. Your rate of return is higher, but your money yield is lower. As stated, your risk is higher by taking that tree forward. Your reward is greater.

At 18", those trees can yield a veneer quality log. But, it really isn't that much volume. By letting it grow, you are putting on veneer value on the butt log, not sawlog value. That's a big difference.

Clumps may be adversely affected by cutting only one or two trees. A lot depends on the vigor of the trees, and if there is any type of damage due to logging. Sometimes its just better to take out the whole clump. Use your best judgment.

Banjo picker · September 28, 2008, 07:56:53 PM

Untill very recently, I might have had a problem with what Ron said about the age of relatively small trees....Heres the story ....I got married to my bride in 1975 Jan .....I found a tree that I had carved our initals in before we were married---cause it had her madin initals in it TS & DW so I know it was befor Jan 11 of 1975....I was blown away at how small that tree still was......at least 33 years later......You just don't carve into a tiny tree....I don't believe it has grown at all......I'll get a pict if anyone cares ....if I can get her to up load it.......I'm challenged in that way you know.....Tim

Good Feller · September 28, 2008, 08:40:11 PM

I know and it makes sense that a smaller tree can be older than a larger tree.
Putting a dollar amount on trees might not be good management but isn't it a necessary evil for a timber sale? I'm providing marketing assistance on a product here, it needs to be expressed in dollars and cents and the logger needs an incentive to haul his equipment in.

You are right that the hickory are going to take over. They already have in many spots. There has been 0 managment on this place. That's the ultimate problem. It's too the point now that most landowners aren't going to spend the time and money necessary to fix it. They have to really have a love for their timber to want improvement. If they don't feel that way, then they think nature will workout all the strings.

Hans1 · September 28, 2008, 10:28:44 PM

Another option is a sale for the hickory down to the 6"-8" mark. I did this this past year in a tract with 80% of the canopy of hickory. The guys that cut it brought a processor and loaded semi trailers. I think the firewood stumpage worked out to about 300.00 a semi load for trees that we would have cut and left during the TSI.

Good Feller · September 28, 2008, 11:43:39 PM

Hey Hans1,

Tell me more about the 80% hickory stand. They just went through and thinned it out...were there enough oaks to naturally regenerate the site once it was opened up, if not how did you plan for regeneration? Did they have a skidder come in?? Sounds like you could have a couple 4 wheelers maneuver through and pull trees out of that size. How much of a demand increase have you noticed in firewood for our area?

Ron Wenrich · September 29, 2008, 05:47:35 AM

Quote from: Good Feller on September 28, 2008, 08:40:11 PM

Putting a dollar amount on trees might not be good management but isn't it a necessary evil for a timber sale?

I think what needs to seriously happen is a harvest followed by timber stand improvement. The hickory and ash need thinned out near the remaining oaks.

You're putting a dollar value as a criteria for harvest. If its not worth $40/tree, then it stays. You're looking at cutting the value of the stand, and that becomes more like mining timber than growing it.

Your harvest is supposed to be like timber stand improvement. You can't fall into a trap that TSI is supposed to cost money. In very young stands, TSI is an expense. Landowners usually won't make the investment. As foresters, all we are doing is trying to manipulate the stand dynamics so we can get to a certain end.

There are a lot of things with different value to the loggers. Good loggers have a wide variety of markets. Our markets span everything from fuelwood to veneer. We pay accordingly.

I've seen some foresters that cater only to the sawmill crowd and some to the veneer crowd. I have seen them walk past stands that need management work simply because they can't make enough money on that stand. I have also seen them go into a stand and gut it just because they could. In my book, they aren't foresters. I think the term timber pimp falls into that category.

If you can't splash some paint on a tree that needs to be cut while you are marking timber, then you need to rethink your priorities. Is it management or is it money? The logger can cut that tree and let it lay if he can't make any money on it. I've seen that stipulated on the contract that all trees must be either cut or girdled.

woodtroll · September 29, 2008, 09:45:56 AM

I agree with Ron.
I would not hesitate to sell hickory and ash if needed to make an opening for oaks.
A low value species that grows from 14 inch to 16 inch is not increasing much in value. If the objective is to regenerate oak,then that is the objective.
A side note, a fifty year old is likely to have another sale and if not him the person that is next will. We should all ways be improving our stands.
It sounds like your thinking about what you mark. thats good.

Good Feller · September 29, 2008, 12:44:12 PM

Guys I'm definatley thinking about what I marked. It is all I can think about. I don't want to hurt the stand I want to improve it. I haven't sent out bid notices yet so I still have time to make adjustments. I'm thinking about going back and marking more of the hickory and ash...I like the idea of putting in the contract that all trees have to be cut or atleast girdled.

Maybe I should "unmark" a few of the oak and walnuts that I marked the other day. I knew this was going to be a lot of work and time.... It is frustrating starting out.

I've been spraying black spray paint to cancel out previous markings. How do you guys go about that?

Ron Wenrich · September 29, 2008, 05:19:31 PM

The black paint will work. I just want to tell you that starting out in this market condition is really an uphill battle. Stick with the marking and it will start to get easier. You'll start recognizing which trees are keepers and which are ones to cut.

You'll also be able to look at stands and start to realize what happened during the last couple of cuts. That's when it all falls into place.

Just keep with it.

Hans 1 · September 29, 2008, 08:51:20 PM

Good Fellar, The crew that did this cut skidded with a small john deere skidder they also had a skid loader to load the processor they took all marked trees elm and other junk. The market must be different for the hickory firewood because they kept it seperate. This stand was small to medium hickory with scattered large oaks probaly old regrown pasture. Our hope is the open canopy and soil disturbance will help with the oak regen.

Ed_K · September 29, 2008, 08:53:24 PM

You must have a few loggers in the area that work as I do. I'll cut anything from 6"dbh up. I'm with Ron all the way. We have markets for cordwood right up thru to the veneer, and at present I'd rather cut all junk wood, then look at what is competing with the good trees. I feel 18"dbh is just starting to gain value, in my area 28"dbh is when a tree starts going down hill,but I've cut r/oak 33" that was still growing good but starting to uproot. Black birch & soft maple are the species that grow multiple stems and we usually cut all or leave one if its in close prox to a leave tree on the west wind side.
Keep on trying and thinking about what your achieving, it'll get easier. I'm not a forester but I have marked a lot or two,my feeling is "go call a consultant I'll be back when its marked". I do love working TSI lots, then go back later an see what happened.
Hickory in my area is top $ firewood.