In Baltimore a ship has hit the bridge. It has completely collapsed!
Search and rescue for occupants of vehicles that were on the bridge.
What an awful tragedy!
Yes it is, I heard it on the national news up here.
Watching it on the news and can't believe how many sections went down. It was 50 years old and built before the big cargo ships existed. The power on the ship went out before the crash and then was turned back on after hitting it looks really suspicious in the video.
Having watched the video's.... OK, I'll admit, I've never piloted a ship like that, so maybe I'm wrong, but... HOW IN THE HELL DID YOU NOT SEE THE BRIDGE ABUTTMENT!?!?!?
I don't know about THAT port specifically, but I know many busy port area's require a trained and licensed pilot to maneuver the ship into the harbor, but come on man... Smacked that sucker dead in the middle.
Sorry, can't believe that's accidental. Negligence and incompetence will take you pretty far, glancing blow, maybe I could believe that... but he rammed that sucker straight on. That was on purpose.
Tragic.
There are reports that the ship lost power. That would mean no control. The ship was obviously out of the main channel in the video.
There were also reports that two pilots were in command at the time.
Of course a ship with no power has no way to stop. Lots of black smoke appeared to be coming from the stack on the ship. Maybe there were efforts to reverse.
Two on the bridge have been rescued.
Interested to see what Barge has to say, I thought a lot of the times tugs did the steering for those ships til they got out of harms way.
That's what I was thinking, I'll be real interested to see what Barge says about it. In the mean time how many cars went in the water? No way to know really till people start being reported missing that use the bridge. Can you imagine being the Fire chief or chief of the rescue company? How in the world do you train for something like this? Pray for the families and the folks working the rescue.
There was a construction crew on the bridge at the time. They have used sonar to locate vehicles in the water. I think I saw it was at 1:30 AM. Good thing it wasn't at rush hour. The bridge is part of I-695, which is a loop around Baltimore.
I have nightmares about bridge collapse. IMO it's got to be a terrible way to go and maybe one of my irrational fears. There was a collapse near here in 1975 on a foggy might. There were 16 people killed. EDIT: correction - 4 killed 16 others injured
My prayers continue for all affected-victims, ship's crew, families, first responders, rescue and recovery crews and others.
Back when I was driving the big toys I always worried about driving across any places like that due to all the idiots on the road. It appears at first glance it was a barge with mechanical problems but time will tell.
It's definitely a tragic day.
Pray that lost lives are few. Tragic for those caught on that bridge.
There is a YouTube'r TimBatSea that I have enjoyed watching that explains quite well (IMO) as a pilot of a tugboat dealing with moving large ships, how long it takes to move them about the harbors, how the tide affects these ships, how knowing the currents, the dangerous situations, etc. that may be of interest. If anyone wants to check him out, likely bargemonkey experiences similar things after reading his posts.
https://www.youtube.com/@TimBatSea/videos
Sorry Jeff
Slow learner.
From what I have read it was a Singapore registered ship with an all Indian crew. Apparently it hit a quay in Belgium a few years back. I haven't seen anything yet that implies it was intentional but sure makes you question the competence of captain and crew.
a report on the internet said that sent a mayday a few minutes before impact that they had lost power. reports are folks manning the entrance and exits of the bridge stopped traffic or it would have been worse.
I have been to Baltimore Harbor and have driven over and sailed under that bridge. Years ago the harbor was dredged and there is a wide shipping lane. There is no need for tugboats out that far. The graphics of the ships course show that it left the loading zone, followed the prescribed route and was turned into the shipping lane. News reports say the ship was being directed by harbor pilots who are in command until the ships pass under the bridge.
The video shows the ship went completely dark twice and was belching black smoke. What was amazing is how quickly the entire bridge fell when the support was taken out. There also seemed to be some kind of explosion on contact which is curious. Since the generators failed, they had nothing but emergency power. It just happened at the worst possible time.
Being in a moving vehicle and catapulted off the bridge at that height would be fatal on impact with the water. Sad so many innocent victims. Events like this lead to many safety improvements, but man is the cost high.
I caught up with Barge a little earlier, he said that they lost power at just the wrong time and they tried to call the tugs back I think but it was too late.
Back when I was working I crossed that bridge many times, it's a loooong way down to the water when you're near the top. As said traffic got stopped but there were some road workers on it when impacted. Since Baltimore news is local for us it's been on the news all day. Going to be a major traffic problem for a long time.
What a tragedy. My thoughts are with all the folks of Baltimore
Quote from: gspren on March 26, 2024, 06:39:06 PMGoing to be a major traffic problem for a long time.
Guess they are glad they kept the old harbor tunnel. Its gonna be a seriously expensive to replace the bridge.
Cost of the Woodrow Wilson Memorial Bridge near DC.
Starting in 2001 with a Federal Highway Administration (FHWA)-approved financial plan budget of $2.44 billion (equivalent to $3.88 billion in 2022), the project completed its financial close in early 2015 at $2.36 billion (equivalent to $3.74 billion in 2022)
In 1980 a freighter hit the Sunshine Skyway Bridge in Florida. Thirty-five people died as a result. The there was heavy rain and wind at the time. Ultimately it was decided that the bridge didn't have sufficient protection from a collision.
Large concrete puck-like constructions called dolphins were installed to protect the Sunshine Skyway Bridge and it is standard practice to install them on other bridges in danger of ship collisions.
The F S Key bridge has dolphins according to the charts. Apparently, the ship didn't hit the dolphins/they were ineffective in preventing the collision and subsequent collapse. Those pink circles on either side of the bridge at the channel mark the dolphins.
Yeah, bridge had some protection, but it wasn't going to stop that size ship running amok.
Some engineering types online did some maths, and worked out that the energy that ship had, going about 8 mph, was roughly the same as 5 fully loaded 747's travelling at 560 mph. Basically the unstoppable force meeting the Movable object.
I've had a quick watch of the video, and the ship definitely lost ALL power. Lights came back on, but that doesn't mean they had propulsion or steering, or maybe only partial. There was a lot of smoke coming from one of the stacks, but was that from trying to restart a main engine, or was it smoke from whatever crippled the ship?
At least the ship is intact, and will have data recorders, plus the physical evidence in the engine room.
The Pilots seem to be the heroes here, by getting on the radio with the SOS, that must activated some disaster plan that shut down bridge traffic. Most of the casualties seem to be a maintenance crew that couldn't get clear in time? But at least someone had thought about that "What if?" and had a plan to close the bridge, literally within seconds of the alert.
A merchant marine on the news said the smoke from the ship was most likely from when they put it in reverse and opened the engine wide up to try and slow it down at the last minute. At that speed even dropping the anchor would not have stopped it. It would have torn right off and probably destroyed many underwater power and communications cables in that area. I didn't realize a ship that big only has one propeller and a rudder for steering. Any problems with the rudder from a power outage in a tight channel can be problems. Apparently at sea when it happens it can take a day to get things fixed and back on course.
They are talking 5 to 10 years to replace the bridge with all the engineering and permits required. Luckily the other ports in the area have the capacity to handle the backup of cargo ships building up now. I still can't believe how fast the entire bridge broke up.
Yes, it did not crumble, it fell.
1970's engineering. My wife hated that bridge. They don't solely rely on the strength of steel for bridge building anymore. Too much flexing over time plus corrosion and also, the entire bridge is lost in events like this. A hurricane might have taken it out.
Now its massive reinforced concrete structures with modern chemical bonding agents. Shows like modern marvels are informative in this regard. The Woodrow Wilson Memorial Bridge near DC and the new bypass bridge at Hoover Dam are good examples. A large ship might take out one section of the new bridge, but the rest would survive.
This morning, the 'tuber Tim B at Sea posted a video that he made on the tug heading for Baltimore he was piloting, not knowing that the were just a short time from this bridge hit. Calling it an "allision" rather than a "collision". This video author talks about maneuvering a barge around with a tugboat, considering the currents, wind, and the tide movement. Goes into a time lapse while moving up river past bridges and heading to Baltimore. Passes container ship at 24:00 and a dredge at 26:00 minutes. Tied up now due to the collapsed bridge from the "allision".
Yep, that's one of those terms in the marine industry. The difference between collision and allision probably has maritime law implications.
Collision - two moving objects/ships striking each other
Allision - usually when a ship or vessel strikes a stationary object
I have a friend from Ocracoke who is a retired ferry captain who operates tugs on the Chesapeake and points north. He tells some great tales from his experiences on the ferry and on the tugs.
Quote from: 21incher on March 27, 2024, 07:48:04 AMI still can't believe how fast the entire bridge broke up.
The main truss part of the bridge was supported by 2 concrete piers. One of them was basically snapped off by the "Allision", and the 2 spans directly supported by it simply fell. The forces involved then dislodged the 3rd section on the other side of the shipping channel, so it tipped into the river as well. Wouldn't matter how strong the bridge was, it simply couldn't stand without that support pier.
It's doubtful that any bridge would have survived intact from the allision by a 95,000 ton ship, regardless of design. A total collapse may have been averted had the bridge been constructed with smaller spans between pilings.
In 1990 the Bonner Bridge that spanned Oregon Inlet on the NC Outer Banks was struck by a dredge that broke anchor. IIRC two concrete sections collapsed. No loss of life occurred. That bridge was repaired and lived another nearly 30 years before being replaced in 2019. It was 1950's engineering completed in 1963.
The Bonner Bridge and the replacement, Basnight Bridge, were built of reinforced concrete both around 2.7 miles long. Albeit, those bridges do not have the shipping traffic of Baltimore.
For fans of Wicked Tuna, the boat Reels of Fortune was the one that hit the Bonner Bridge. Capt Charlie Griffin was one of the captains on the Oregon Inlet episodes. Reels of Fortune was his boat. We lost Captain Griffin to a boating accident earlier this month near Oregon Inlet. Apparently his boat capsized with two men and a dog aboard. All were lost.
Quote from: Ianab on March 27, 2024, 02:56:54 PMQuote from: 21incher on March 27, 2024, 07:48:04 AMI still can't believe how fast the entire bridge broke up.
The main truss part of the bridge was supported by 2 concrete piers. One of them was basically snapped off by the "Allision", and the 2 spans directly supported by it simply fell. The forces involved then dislodged the 3rd section on the other side of the shipping channel, so it tipped into the river as well. Wouldn't matter how strong the bridge was, it simply couldn't stand without that support pier.
Sure seems like a very poor engineering job for a single pier hit to destroy the entire bridge that could have had hundreds of cars on it at rush hour. Hopefully we learn from this catastrophe.
I saw someone say that in the future they may change the rules to keep the tugs with the ships until they go past the bridge(s). so that this may not happen again.
And another said that many new bridges have other "bummers" built at the piers so that a big ship can't hit them. This one did not have those bummers (or whatever they are called.)
Jim Rogers
Yeah as I read there was a harbor pilot in control and apparently a second in training as well as the captain. The tugs had left but rushed back when they heard the Mayday but did not get there in time to prevent the accident. The Mayday was sent when the ship lost power and had no steerage and drifted into the bridge. The ship dropped the anchor but was not enough to stop it that quick. The police stopped all cars on both ends of the bridge which no doubt saved many lives plus there was little traffic that time of morning.
I think there were 8 construction workers fixing potholes on the bridge. Apparently foreign nationals from Central and South America. Evidently the police did not know about them. Sounds like 2 of them were rescued but there are still 6 they are looking for the last I read/heard.
I am sure they could design something shaped like a canoe, so it diverts the force rather than allow impact.
Quote from: doc henderson on March 27, 2024, 09:05:17 PMI am sure they could design something shaped like a canoe, so it diverts the force rather than allow impact.
Someone's back of an envelope figuring estimated it would take about 30ft of concrete and earth to stop a ship like that. So not impossible, but adding that sort of buffer to an existing bridge could be problem, if you make the channel 60 ft narrower. With a new bridge it's possible to design more protection, and a greater span for the shipping channel.
The Sunshine Skyway in Florida was knocked down by a ship in 1980(?). It's since been rebuilt, with much larger "Islands" around the base of the towers, AND more space for ships to pass under.
This is an image from Wikipedia, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Skyway_Bridge_3.jpg
Image can be copied as long as you give them credit (details in the link)
Skyway_Bridge_3.jpg
But compare the protection around the piers of the new bridge, compared to the old one that's being removed in this shot. The shipping channel is both larger, and better protected with the newer design.
This same ship was in a collision in 2016 in Belgium and sustained damage. It was good weather and the Master and pilot on board were blamed for the error. The container ship Dali was detained and docked to Deurganckdok, Antwerp, where it was repaired and fully inspected before being released to return in operations.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/26/baltimore-bridge-ship-previous-collision-antwerp-2016
https://www.vesselfinder.com/news/6675-VIDEO-Mega-container-ship-Dali-Allided-with-berth-at-Port-of-Antwerp
The F S Key bridge had those little concrete "islands" called dolphins protecting the supports. Apparently they were ineffective, improperly placed or there were not enough of them.
There were at least 3 on each side of the channel.
The new Sunshine Skyway bridge does have way more dolphins protecting it than the F S Key bridge.
Looking at photos of the scene the ship had already passed at least one of the barriers, and is seen along side the wreck. A structural engineer on the news said there is no "economical" bridge structure that could withstand the impact of that ship. Time will tell when they rebuild it what improvements are made. Also noted when the bridge was built in the 1970's the ships were a fraction of the size of the mega freighters they run now.
Back in 2007 there was a major bridge collapse on I 35 Minneapolis were 13 died. Within a few days of that accident, bridges all across the country were inspected, some were immediately closed and new construction was given priority. If any good comes out of this incident, it may lead to safer bridges too.
Quote from: Ianab on March 27, 2024, 09:35:27 PMQuote from: doc henderson on March 27, 2024, 09:05:17 PMI am sure they could design something shaped like a canoe, so it diverts the force rather than allow impact.
Someone's back of an envelope figuring estimated it would take about 30ft of concrete and earth to stop a ship like that. So not impossible, but adding that sort of buffer to an existing bridge could be problem, if you make the channel 60 ft narrower. With a new bridge it's possible to design more protection, and a greater span for the shipping channel.
The Sunshine Skyway in Florida was knocked down by a ship in 1980(?). It's since been rebuilt, with much larger "Islands" around the base of the towers, AND more space for ships to pass under.
This is an image from Wikipedia, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Skyway_Bridge_3.jpg
Image can be copied as long as you give them credit (details in the link)
Skyway_Bridge_3.jpg
But compare the protection around the piers of the new bridge, compared to the old one that's being removed in this shot. The shipping channel is both larger, and better protected with the newer design.
I ride over the Skyway bridge all the time. Last Sunday as a matter of fact. Beautiful bridge.
Local news is talking about what if and is there enough barriers around it as it stands now.
Big problem with it is it's too short limiting the size ship that fit's under it.
The bigger container and cruise ships can't get into Tampa Bay.
Supposed to be the highest concentration of sharks on the west coast. We did a recovery under it many years ago and you could feel the big fish swimming close by. Heebee jeebees man!
My daughter just flew out of Pennsylvania after a business trip and said truck traffic on that part of the coast was and predicted to be a mess till the bridge reopens and container ships can reenter.
I would think that they could get the shipping lane clear and the docks/harbor open this year but the bridge will take multiple years. There are 2 tunnels not too far from there but they won't be able to handle the volume plus no hazardous or flamable liguids are allowed to be trucked through the tunnels, that includes gas, propane, diesel, etc. They did recover 2 of the bodies that were found in a truck about 20' down, they have now suspended the search for the others as it's too dangerous.
Quote from: Texas Ranger on March 28, 2024, 12:36:39 PMMy daughter just flew out of Pennsylvania after a business trip and said truck traffic on that part of the coast was and predicted to be a mess till the bridge reopens and container ships can reenter.
Yeah, all the freight that's currently on ships in the harbour, or waiting to be loaded will have to be moved to another port, and freight scheduled to come in and out of the port will have to be re-routed. Add all that to the disruption of normal traffic due to the bridge being out. :uhoh:
I suspect the various freight companies involved aren't getting Easter off.
Getting the harbour clear will take months as they probably have to unload some of the containers on the ship, without the benefit of the big dockside cargo cranes. As well as clearing the bridge debris
Quote from: Resonator on March 28, 2024, 10:05:02 AMBack in 2007 there was a major bridge collapse on I 35 Minneapolis were 13 died. Within a few days of that accident, bridges all across the country were inspected, some were immediately closed and new construction was given priority. If any good comes out of this incident, it may lead to safer bridges too.
We had two bridges of the same design nearby, one for each direction of traffic over the Shenandoah River. Virginia takes care of its bridges, but they immediately re-inspected them. It was the big news in the paper for a few days. Both bridges have since been replaced. I miss the old trestle bridges, but their time is done.
The investigation, removal of the bridge remnants, hazardous materials on board and in the water, documentation of the deaths and any gravesites, legal wrangling. Its gonna be awhile.
Anybody familiar with the bridges over the Ohio River and Mississippi River near Cairo, IL? They are near Fort Defiance.
Talk about bridges that will make you draw up a bit! They are steel truss bridges, I think the Roman's built them. I've crossed them a few times. They feed my irrational fear of bridge collapse.
Last time over them the rivers were near historic low levels so the bridges seemed higher. That stupid little bridge on the Kentucky side before the Ohio River bridge isn't exactly confidence inspiring!
Another video with shipping lane info and more specific about why tugs were not attached.
Quote from: Raider Bill on March 28, 2024, 11:08:37 AMBig problem with it is it's too short limiting the size ship that fit's under it.
The bigger container and cruise ships can't get into Tampa Bay.
One might suggest that's actually a plus? If over size can't traverse the channel, then there is no risk of one going off course.
Quote from: SawyerTed on March 28, 2024, 04:59:22 PMTalk about bridges that will make you draw up a bit! They are steel truss bridges, I think the Roman's built them. I've crossed them a few times. They feed my irrational fear of bridge collapse.
It seems that a lot of bridges around the USA, and other countries too, are getting old and possibly past their "use by" dates. Regular maintenance can of course keep them structurally sound, but that costs $$. NZ largest bridge would be the one over Auckland Harbour. It was built in the 50s, so maintenance and inspection on that is pretty much continuous, when the crew get right across the bridge with the inspection / repair / repaint, it's time to start all over again.
Quote from: SawyerTed on March 28, 2024, 04:59:22 PMLast time over them the rivers were near historic low levels so the bridges seemed higher. That stupid little bridge on the Kentucky side before the Ohio River bridge isn't exactly confidence inspiring!
I've been parked in several miles of cars while they pulled a truck and mobile home back off that bridge... what was he thinking. We were all standing around and visiting when a cop came back. We asked if the driver got a ticket "Oh he's got a pocketful ffcheesy"
There is a lot to be said for simple spans if they can be done at that span economically, at least one would have probably survived.
The Tasman Bridge (partial collapse) near downtown Hobart, Australia was hit by a zinc carrying ship in 1975, in a similar manner to the the Baltimore incident.
The cars stopping with the front 2 wheels over the deck where the bridge should have been stays in the memory.
Story in recent years using 3d scanning of wreck and repaired bridge
https://youtu.be/WLLwCEIlDBk?si=z__M_LKhAxfABxgk
The historic old (road and rail)bridge further up river at Bridgewater(near Hobart( is being replaced by a new bridge.(expensive due to variable soil material under the river requiring very deep piles in places.
In watching those videos of the ship, you see the traffic passing over the bridge just before it falls. So you come off the bridge and you see all the flashing lights and police blocking the other direction lanes of the bridge and you hear/feel the bridge behind you fall. Yikes.
I would kinda miss a week of my life just wandering around in a daze.
There is a very good likelihood that the ship owner and insurance company will only be liable for up to a "couple of tens of millions of $$" worth of damage from this. Something about the "Titanic law" that greatly limits shipping liability.
Now you go and hit a highway bridge with your truck and see how far that sort of defense will get you.
Another little fact about the Sunshine Skyway bridge over Tampa Bay.
In 87 when they were going to officially open it a 70ft shrimper boat hit it I think 2 days before the ceremony.
Around here that was a big deal as all the news were saying another ship hit the bridge.
They postponed the dedication awhile but there was no damage.
There is plenty of width for the bigger ships but not enough height.
Quote from: SawyerTed on March 28, 2024, 04:59:22 PMAnybody familiar with the bridges over the Ohio River and Mississippi River near Cairo, IL? They are near Fort Defiance.
Talk about bridges that will make you draw up a bit! They are steel truss bridges, I think the Roman's built them. I've crossed them a few times. They feed my irrational fear of bridge collapse.
Last time over them the rivers were near historic low levels so the bridges seemed higher. That stupid little bridge on the Kentucky side before the Ohio River bridge isn't exactly confidence inspiring!
I drove across them last fall.
Those are very narrow bridges, I really puckered with a semi coming towards me
That's one of the positive things that can come out of a disaster like this. Suddenly, everyone is looking at their bridges and saying we gotta replace that.
The real problem is how to pay for it all.
Quote from: rusticretreater on March 29, 2024, 11:44:00 AMThe real problem is how to pay for it all
That's for sure.
We have some dubious bridges around NZ too, but generally in areas with low traffic. The high traffic roads get a bit more spent on them.
This is the bridge over the Haast River in the Sth Island. It's only one lane, but ~750 metres (almost 2500 ft) long, and it's single lane.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/Haast_Bridge.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1482820372)
This is a bridge a few miles North of Haast at Franz Joseph that washed out in bad weather. Luckily they had closed the bridge as the local road crews were worried (correctly) that it could fail. The detour around that bridge was ~12 hours and 1,000 km. As the bridge was a "Bailey" style, (prefab trusses), probably from when an earlier bridge was washed out, they were able to rebuilt it in only 18 days, and that was with some extra rain that slowed work.
This is what the river usually looks like, with the current bridge, and the rock barrier added at the Nth end where the last failure started.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HQE7DCoYtB1Qms2R6
With a few hundred million they could obviously build a better bridge, but the amount of traffic just doesn't justify it.
One lane, so the traffic sits and waits for oncoming cars to clear that lane?
Yep and you hope the light isn't malfunctioning.
After Hurricane Agnes back in the 1970's, the area I was living in got totally washed out. A 100 year old girder bridge in Occoquan fell, one of the two I-95 bridges over the Occoquan river had its footer washed out and they closed both spans for a bit, and the nearby US 1 two span bridge had one span fall(some fella got off of it just in time and stood there as it fell) and the other crippled. You could go south, but you had to go west 20 miles to get heading North.
Quote from: beenthere on March 29, 2024, 07:38:25 PMOne lane, so the traffic sits and waits for oncoming cars to clear that lane?
Yup, like I said it's not a high traffic area.
Quote from: rusticretreater on March 29, 2024, 07:50:52 PMYep and you hope the light isn't malfunctioning.
What is this light of which you speak? ffcheesy
The longer Haast bridge does have a couple of small passing bays on it, that are just wide enough for 2 vehicles to pass, so if 2 cars do end up on it, you can pull in and let the other past.
There was another one lane bridge up the Coast further, that's also a rail bridge. Not rail AND road, it was Rail OR Road. Trains had right of way. It's since been replaced by a nice new 2 lane structure as it's in a more populated area. The old bridge is still there though
https://maps.app.goo.gl/iVLpcTEgNtLLvTvQ7
We had a couple of those growing up, they were known as "chicken bridge",as in, "Go up to the chicken bridge on the Haw river" and everyone would know where you were talking about.
Heard one of those "experts" say that "we should have enough steel in the US to build the new bridge" ---- that's comforting that we have enough steel for one bridge...
Quote from: Southside on March 29, 2024, 09:29:22 PMHeard one of those "experts" say that "we should have enough steel in the US to build the new bridge" ---- that's comforting that we have enough steel for one bridge...
"Just In Time" manufacturing is a thing. Is there enough steel On Hand, or does it have to be ordered / produced / delivered and then made into the bridge parts. Usually a bridge project is years in the planning, so materials get pre-ordered and delivered as needed.
I'm sure they are in the early stages of planning a new bridge already, but what's the design and material list going to be, and who's going to supply it? I'm sure it will happen, US is still the 4th largest steel producer in the World, so there is plenty of steel available, just it may not actually have been produced yet.
Much will depend upon the aesthetics versus pure functionality of the new bridge. Will it be a work of art, an engineering marvel and visually appealing; OR will the new bridge be a functional and practical construction meant to convey traffic and allow ships to pass?
It's hard to have a masterpiece engineered in a short time. Innovation takes time.
QuoteHeard one of those "experts" say that "we should have enough steel in the US to build the new bridge" ---- that's comforting that we have enough steel for one bridge...
Has this "expert" ever even been to a steel mill? Yes they've got the steel, and roll out more hot fresh every day.
Engineering designs, contactor bids, government regulations, beam fabrication at the bridge builder shop, inspections and approvals, shipping the oversize loads, and final construction assembly at the site, that will take time.
QuoteThere was another one lane bridge up the Coast further, that's also a rail bridge. Not rail AND road, it was Rail OR Road. Trains had right of way.
Shared train and auto bridges were common in the early 1900's, trains were the primary means of travel and car travel was still in it's early stages. Often there was one lane of road, and one railroad track side by side or a double decker bridge with trains on top and cars underneath. It wasn't until Dwight D. Eisenhower was in office that the modern interstate highway system we have was built. Side note it's original purpose wasn't just for commerce, but as a means of defending the US. Hence the signs for I 40, I 80, etc. are shaped like a shield.
The original Mississippi River bridge at Vicksburg included both train and automobile/truck traffic. It was quite narrow and was a special "experience" to cross it with the then steam locomotives. :stunned: It still carries the RR traffic and the I20 automobile/truck traffic has it's own newer/wider bridge.
Back when the Key Bridge was built Bethlehem Steel was still in production and quite near to the bridge, it's been shut down for a number of years now. A quick search shows that the mill was officially closed in 2012 although Bethlehem sold it a few years earlier.
Just mulling this over a bit. Will there be disruption in steel and concrete supply in other areas of the country to prioritize the FS Key bridge replacement? Will the bridge replacement take priority over other projects, causing delays and supply chain concerns?
Even the Three Gorges Dam in China impacted concrete supply worldwide.
It might not be a bad time to have welding certification, concrete experience, crane operator or construction management skills in the region. Even a captain's license, tug operator, crew etc will be in demand.
There are lots of economic impacts and opportunities for jobs and businesses.
I suspect that much of the materials and labor will require overtime other than what is normal.
I can't imagine one bridge construction, even a large one, causing any huge disruption to supplies. There must be 100+ large construction projects going on around the US already. One more wont be the last straw.
The disruption the closed port will be starting to cause will probably have more and wider effects.
I see that some big crane barges have been moved in to start clearing the debris, which will be a big job on it's own.
If building one bridge, unless it is to Hawaii, disrupts any thing else in this world due to lack of ANY resource, we are already doomed.
Apparently the ship came to rest right on top of a high pressure natural gas line. At some point you begin to scratch your head.
US Steel in Pittsburgh is pending sale to the Japanese. Go Figure. Its big news around these parts. Seems just plain wrong.
The historic Portage Lake Lift Bridge in da UP is a 2 deck lift bridge, cars on top and train track on lower deck
Quoted from the National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark article,
The Houghton Hancock Bridge, officially known as the Portage Lake Lift Bridge, is the only bridge of its type in Michigan. When completed, it was the heaviest vertical lift span ever constructed. The unique bridge was designed as a double-deck bridge. The lower deck was designed for railroad traffic, and the upper deck was for highway traffic. However, to minimize the disruption of vehicular traffic on the bridge, the lower railroad deck of the lift span was designed to also accommodate vehicular traffic. This allowed the bridge to be raised slightly so that the railroad deck served the highway deck. While this would leave the railroad level of the bridge closed to trains, vehicular traffic could continue to cross the bridge, while allowing boats of intermediate size to pass under the bridge, where they would not have been able to do so if the left span was fully lowered. For large ships, the span could also be fully raised, which would completely stop traffic on the bridge. Today, trains no longer use the bridge, but the lower deck continues to serve as a crossing for snowmobiles in the winter. During the winter, the lift span is fully lowered, enabling snowmobiles to use the lower lift span deck level, while vehicular traffic uses the upper lift span deck level. At all other times of the year, the bridge is raised to the intermediate position, allowing vehicular traffic to use the lower lift span deck level, while closing off the unused lower snowmobile deck level. Today, the bridge does not raise beyond the intermediate level frequently, since large ships do not use the waterway as often. However it does raise beyond the intermediate position occasionally for sail boats.
Here is a ships Engineer's explanation for what was going on in the engine room of that ship. (edit: the website has disabled playback on other sites.)
Expert Ships Engineer Reacts to Baltimore Bridge Crash (youtube.com) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEzDh4RwpaM)
Key points of his expert analysis are:
The total time from first lights (power) out till contact with the bridge was under five minutes. During that time the first perhaps 60 seconds were waiting for lights to come back on and determining what went wrong. The heavy black smoke from the stack may indicate the engine room may have shifted engines to full astern. The problem is that twenty foot diameter prop acts like a paddlewheel and begins to pull the stern to port (left) while the bow of that 900+ foot ship drifts to starboard. He suggests that a better course may have been to go full ahead and use the opposite prop rotation to try to swing the bow away from the bridge. He also notes that the bow thrusters are totally ineffective above 3 knots and the ship was traveling at 8 knots but slowed to just under 8 knots before it struck the bridge piers.
Bottom line is the crew may well have done all they could to avoid collision with the bridge.
It was also reported in other places where the ship was fighting with power outages at the dock. One suggestion was there were refrigerated containers on the ship and one or more of those refrigerated unit may have been tripping the breakers at the dock. So it may well be the real cause of the accident was failure to resolve those power outages before departing the dock. Once the ship lost power the first time under way while still maneuvering in the port, it was just an accident waiting to happen.
Video of cutting the bridge apart. Close-up of the size of the steel to be torched apart. Not "live" as implied, and just some footage that is cycled over and over. But a glimpse at what it is going to take.
That is going to be like doing storm clean up in the woods. All kinds of different stresses and pressures on some of that steel.
That's what they said on the news, difficult for them to tell what beams are under tension or compression. I don't envy the ironworkers with the torch in that personnel basket. Crazy to see in the close up view shipping containers smashed like pop cans under the bridge framework.
The Army Core of Engineers said their plan is to open a smaller lane to get smaller ship traffic in and out of the port, until the main channel is open.
You notice in some of the shots, the crane ship is off to the side working on getting a sea lane open. That's probably where the workers were cutting the girders.
The real difficulty is getting the leaners off of the ship so that it can be pushed away from the area.
The rest of the operation is stuff that has been done many times before. Getting enough flotation under the pieces and tow them away, cleaning up the sea floor and assessment of the remaining structures.
I'm sure there is great anticipation for the shears.
It looks like there are almost 30 ships anchored between the mouth of the Chesapeake and Annapolis. Bulk carriers and Auto carriers.
Just happened across this video of the Port of Baltimore. Video made by a trucker picking up a CAT excavator that came into the Port from China, and he is loading it up to transport to Canada. The first 25 minutes shows the volume of equipment at this Port either moving in or someday, moving out.
Found it interesting enough to think other FF members might also find it interesting, both from the truckers side as well as the Port of Baltimore side.
A lot of our grub comes up those rivers, a lot from south of the US to. You would think a lot of the non US stuff could come into the Bay of Fundy with the deepest sea port on the globe. But it's an historical fact since confederation, the Feds will never give those jobs to a Maritimer. smiley_thumbsdown ffcheesy Open ocean, no bridges, rail service. Why make it tougher? Subsidies and politics will always overcome practical things. ffcheesy
I would think that the Bay of Fundy's extreme tide levels and currents would make for some challenges to cargo loading/unloading.
Never hear tell of it. Even Churchill during WWII couldn't believe the government didn't use it all the more. Was easy to defend. There a number of small ports there, 40 or so. But could be expanded for a lot more cargo. A port or two may be closed in winter because of thick ice. But that is not the case for them all.
Just GREAT!!!!
container ship APL QINGDAO lost power while transiting New York harbor (https://twitter.com/johnkonrad/status/1776786983097966862)
QuoteJust happened across this video of the Port of Baltimore. Video made by a trucker picking up a CAT excavator that came into the Port from China, and he is loading it up to transport to Canada. The first 25 minutes shows the volume of equipment at this Port either moving in or someday, moving out.
Found it interesting enough to think other FF members might also find it interesting, both from the truckers side as well as the Port of Baltimore side.
I hauled flatbed loads in and out of the Baltimore a few times. I had Oshkosh trucks going in one time, and compact tractors going out another. As seen in the video there are huge parking lots with all types of cars, trucks and machinery. Also there are huge warehouses where freight is unloaded out of containers and reloaded on trucks to be delivered. All of this dependent on the ship traffic in and out of the port.
Those ocean transport ships seen in the video have multiple levels inside, with ramps going to each area like a floating parking garage. The ships crew has to plan out the loads on each level like a giant chess game. Deciding where each machine and car gets put, sometimes with multiple stops around the world where different machines will get loaded and unloaded.
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Streaming video showing live happenings at the bridge cleanup. Some traffic talk, which is Barge's world these days. Offloading two containers at a time. Can just pick out the men on the Dali ship hooking up the containers.
Friend of mine got some good pictures the other day going thru, the boat I'm on brought down the container barge they are going to unload the ship with last week.
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Awesome size of that steel bridge when seen up close, and the man on the bow risks further collapse not knowing what is holding up the bridge structure above him.
Live stream video that I watch shows progress removing containers, bridge parts, huge clam shells to lift pavement from the bottom depths, and the many, many tugboats operating to keep the hundreds of barges in position at the right time. What a job.
Live stream
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sv7SA2Ybgg
Peeled that ship open!!!
A short video of some closer-up images of the damage, and the rescue operation.
Imagine that every tug has a "bargemonkey" working hard to keep the engines running. Hard to fathom how this entire operation can be coordinated.
News tonight shows they have a smaller temporary chanel opened and are letting some ships/barges out, chanel will only be open for 4 days and then close while they remove more debris.