I'm backed up

[Brad_bb]

Sorry no pic today.  We (meaning the tree service) has started taking down trees on a property I'm working on.  I had a pile of about 25 logs left to mill, but now the pile has grown to somewhere between 80-100, and they are not even close to done yet. 

With that many logs, plus I have a full log yard at home... I need help.  I am in contact with one local sawyer with an LT50 super hyd.  He doesn't like to go mobile and has a hauler who he says will haul logs relatively cheaply.
This way he can keep his mill indoors and work regardless of weather.  His rate seems pretty steep to me at $100/hr.  Is it steep or reasonable?  My logs range from 10" to 28".  I want logs that I can at least make a 6x6 from.  So another FF member suggested that I cut them into cants and send those over to that sawyer so that the sawing is more efficient for that rate.  I have an LT15 so I would be the bottleneck in the process.  I also have a problem slabbing heavy to make a cant and leaving a board on a slab.  Do I try to get those boards from slabs or end up with more firewood/waste to haul off?

[wesdor]

There is an LT70 owner near Rock Island Illinois (not me I have an LT15).  He has been working for about $75/ hr last time I talked to him. PM me if you think trucking that far might be worth it. 

[WV Sawmiller]

Brad,

   Lots of questions here. What kind of logs are they? Are you making other lumber beside the 6X6's? Do you have a market or use for that much wood? Do you have storage space and equipment to handle it? How long will you need to hold it before you can sell or use it?

   Another option might be for you to have the other sawyer make the cants and you store and cut them later if he can/will do that. That should reduce his time and expense.

    As to his rate it would be high for this area but their are others on the forum who apparently charge and get that for their services.

    The ultimate question is can you afford and make a satisfactory profit from that arrangement?

[Satamax]

Brad, may i ask. Wouldn't this be the time to invest into another sawmill? I mean, 100 trees. This could pay for a good part of a secondhand hand hydraulic mill.

[Ianab]

The $100 an hour depends how much he can produce in that hour. If he's well set up in a shed with log deck, roller tables and a fork lift etc he might be able to saw 50% more than a mobile guy working with a less than optimal set up. More time with the blade in the log, and less time handling materials / cleaning up / loading logs etc.

I guess you could arrange to send him a trial load of logs. He gets to see your material, and you judge his performance. Then do the maths and see if you are going to come out ahead on the deal. Worst case you might only be breaking even, and don't send him any more. But if you are coming out with a decent profit on the deal, then make it an ongoing gig.

I'd also plan to send him the bigger logs where his hydraulics and engine power will get good production. 28" logs on a manual mill are hard work, but ideal size for something like a LT50. You can make a 6x6 out of a 10-12" log pretty efficiently with the LT15, but I wouldn't want to be paying someone $100 an hour to mess around with them. I wouldn't saw cants because every log is going to loaded onto a mill 2 times, that can't be good for efficiency. Start with the logs that won't last as well. Some, the bugs and stain will spoil them fast, other will still be fine after 12 months.

Side boards or slab heavy?  Do you have a market or use for the boards? If you do, or the wood is something that you might expect to be able to sell (Walnut, Cedar etc) then recover the better boards for sure. If not, then slab heavy and make some decent firewood out of it.

[4x4American]

Did you ask him if he would do it at a bdft rate?

[red]

Job security

[Peter Drouin]

Free logs,  cheap trucking, Now you want a guy with a $50,000 mill to cut free logs and you think $100 an hour is too much. :
I get $100 an hour and would not start the mill for less.

[Don P]

I had some old fart friends... who are probably reading this  :D... running my stationary mill here this summer while I was milling at the job. Productivity is lower than you can do on the mill but it isn't like turning teenagers loose on the equipment. The metrics were different, the client was paying, some of the cost was defrayed in wood trade, but just another thought.

[nativewolf]

Bragging about being backed up with logs is just not cool  :D. 

8)

Congrats on the challenge though!

[longtime lurker]

Boils down to where you want to spend your money, but you either got to buy more mill or hire more mill. Or lose $ to degrade. Or build a pond.

Or leave some logs behind. Or sell some.

Plenty of choices anyway.

[TKehl]

How long would it take you to work through these?  Is this a one time "surge" or do you expect to continue getting an increased quantity?

If it's a one time thing, my thought is sealing the logs and talk to a nearby farmer about storing them out of the way for $, lumber, or firewood.

Helps to define value of the sideboards as well.  This is urban wood, correct?  Slabbing heavy and selling the slabs as firewood in order to get the beams you need quickly may make a lot of sense.  Should get decent money for firewood up that way.  It could be that chasing sideboards is pennywise and pound foolish in this case.  I have a hard time avoiding that myself.   ;)

[paul case]

I had that kind of problem a while back.

I like to cut ties so I piled up the logs that would tie easily and not make a whole bunch of side lumber. I also sorted off the best biggest grade logs and sold them to a neighbor mill as he pays a little better for them than I do and he sent a truck after them. I thought that we had so many logs on the yard at Dec 31 that we wouldnt saw them up by april fools day, but we ran out on valentines day.

Market for the wood is the biggest factor. If it pays enough, try the other guy. That is the only way you will know. I have helped other mills a few times that way and I think it worked out well for both of us.The good part is from now through early spring those logs will keep well and not deteriorate too much. Grade may still get some sap stain but they will probably stay sound.

I was going to suggest metamucil but thats for a different kind of log problem :laugh: ;D :D .

PC

[nativewolf]

I think Brad is mostly cutting for his upcoming Timberframe build, is that right?  Brad has posted bows, sweeps, forks, etc for natural TF braces, posts, etc. 

Though I kid around a lot if I were Brad I'd select the ho hum ordinary for cutting into plain ol timbers and bigger stuff that would be hard to mill on the lt15.  I'd keep all the difficult stuff sweep, forks, etc and do that because only you have the knowledge of your timberframe cut list and needs.  From previous posts I know you can think outside the box.  Anything that fits into the box send out but send good logs so his production will be high.  The price seems ok, good to have knowledge of another sawyer and he takes it seriously as he wants to cut indoors (no fool in IL in winter). 

Make the cut list as accurate as possible and label each log I guess.  If the guy cuts a lot of side lumber sell that off as firewood and recoup your sawing expense.  Put the slabs over a pallet and go to it, shrink wrap the top and you're done.  Easy to move with a forklift or bobcat.  If he cuts a couple of cords of firewood a day your timbers will almost be free.

[Brad_bb]

So sorry, I did forget to post a bunch of info.

These are all White Ash being taken down due to ash borer kill.  All the wood is good.  It could be stored outside stacked where it is and still be good a year from now but I need it milled very soon.  I had some from last year that I got to milling early this summer and it was fine.

The logs are all for my use.  I need a bunch of 2x6 that will become horse stalls in a barn(They'll get planed and T&G'd they go into metal frames, horses will not be able to chew on it).  I will also make maybe a dozen 12" cants that will go to a circle sawyer to become 12" wide circle sawn siding for an interior project.  I also need to make some 5/4 for flooring.  Lastly the rest will be come post/beams for where I can use them.  Any material I have left over I'll sell or find a use for.  I am going to use a lot of this.

This is a one time thing.  Like I said if there's 80-100 now, the tree service is starting a new area this week, so there could be 80 more??

I like the idea of sending the bigger ones to the other sawyer, and working the smaller and shorter and crooked'er ones myself.  I do have to not be so stingy with the sidewood.  It does have more tendency to cup too, which is another reason not to spend so much time salvaging it.

The 2x6's are priority #1 to get them sawn and back to my place stacked and stickered for air drying.  Their final use will be in ambient conditions, so no need to kiln dry.  So I need to get the bigger logs separated, trimmed up with chainsaw, and send.  I need to hire help because this needs to get done in the next 2 months to get it air drying. Then the question is how long til I can plane and T&G them? Priority #2 is the 12" cants, and #3 is 5/4 for flooring.  Beams are last as I will use them green.

Due to last year's very mild winter, everyone is overstocked with firewood.  Selling firewood now is very difficult.

nativewolf has really been paying attention to my exploits.  You're pretty spot on.

[Dave Shepard]

Free logs,  cheap trucking, Now you want a guy with a $50,000 mill to cut free logs and you think $100 an hour is too much. :
I get $100 an hour and would not start the mill for less.

And with $500,000 in overhead, that isn't enough.

I charge $100/ hour,  and you'll pay less than if you paid by the foot. Will the sawyer allow you to tail for him ? That will make a difference,  if you like busting your butt. With a helper sawing pine timbers, I've gone over 700 feet per hour.  That's less than fifteen cents a foot. And sawing timbers is finicky work.

[Brad_bb]

Dave, a question is a question here, not an insinuation.

[Dave Shepard]

I'm not sure what you mean? I'm just explaining why I charge what I do,  and that while it may seem high, it can actually be cheaper than a board foot rate.

[nativewolf]

Dave, I think Brad's question is a fine one.  I doubt he makes $100/hr or he'd have a lt70  :laugh:.  Neither do I just to clear the air there. 

That said I think Dave does bring up a good point, maybe if you tail for the sawyer his production would go up and your costs down.  That's a good idea because also it would help you get the right product from each log. 

Getting EAB kill means..I guess you can get all the logs you want this winter and even next year. 

Sorry to hear firewood is cheap, that was a good idea...shoot, I don't have those very often so I hate to see it wasted. 

Otherwise I think you have it figured out, you keep the slow hard to cut logs, send the bigger fast to cut logs out and tail if you can.  That's a decent process and would let you tail right into your trailer (do you have a trailer?) or onto a long set of pallets on your trailer.  At this point I believe you'd want to focus on the ease of moving the finished lumber back to your home or wherever you are drying.  You don't want to pickup and stack more than you have to.  paulcase 4x4 yellowhammer (think i got that right) and others have written about being efficient with pallets.  I've taken their advice to heart. 

Anyhow rather than fuss to much on the rate I think doing all you can to make the process as fast as possible is the key, tailing, stickers, moving back to your site, etc.  If you do that you'll have more time to do what needs to be done with the more interesting logs.

Finally, why don't you like your horses?  Don't you know horses love to crib, nothing is tastier than a bit of planned ash or oak on a cold snowy day.  You are just heartless.  Think of your horses and don't cap them with metal it's cold, tasteless, nasty stuff. 

[Dave Shepard]

And I was trying to answer his question: "His rate seems pretty steep to me at $100/hr.  Is it steep or reasonable?"

It's reasonable if he's producing at a high rate.

[OffGrid973]

My only experience with ash 2x4 is when i built the frame for my 20x10 barn and it danced like crazy on me.  If anyone is sawing to final dimensions get some weight on there, would hate to see unnecessary waste as it dries quick.  Not sure how that impacts cant vs $300 an hour but figured it couldn't hurt to mention from another "manual" side of things.

[Brad_bb]

Agreed Dave.  I wasn't sure if you were taking offense to the question -as if I was insinuating that it WAS out of line.  I am trying to determine if so or not.  Yes, speeding up his efficiency will effectively lower my cost as he will be able to produce more sawed product.

I only have a 12 foot trailer that can handle 2000#, and it has fenders which makes it harder to load and unload. 

I figure I cannot tail for that sawyer because I'll be milling on my mill...to keep things moving.
I'm sure he has someone....wouldn't ya think?  I'll ask him next time when I have some logs ready to go.

[Ianab]

You may find that if he is working alone, then tailing for him could increase his production more than you could saw with the LT15? Just something to think about.

If you are tailing, you can basically offload straight onto your trailer and avoid another handling stage.

And yes you want him sawing the big stuff where he's going to get the best bd/ft rate for your $$. The small and bent ones that you want to make braces etc from, need more thinking and setup, and the LT15 will be nearly as good working on them.

[nativewolf]

Agreed Dave.  I wasn't sure if you were taking offense to the question -as if I was insinuating that it WAS out of line.  I am trying to determine if so or not.  Yes, speeding up his efficiency will effectively lower my cost as he will be able to produce more sawed product.

I only have a 12 foot trailer that can handle 2000#, and it has fenders which makes it harder to load and unload. 

I figure I cannot tail for that sawyer because I'll be milling on my mill...to keep things moving.
I'm sure he has someone....wouldn't ya think?  I'll ask him next time when I have some logs ready to go.

I think I'd still look at how he stacks the wood if you can't tail.  Can you rent/borrow a trailer for a week or two? equipment trailer with no fenders and high weight capacity?  Have them stack on a pallet?   Move the wood onto the trailer with a skid steer, then take off at your home.  That will get you out of having to restack.  Stacking and moving 100+ logs of lumber is some chore.  You are an out of the box thinker.  This just seems the one part of the process you can really impact.  What ever tailing/stickering is done should be it until spring. 

[Peter Drouin]

Did you ask the guy with the 50 what he can cut in a day?

[Brad_bb]

Peter, how can you gauge that?  That would all depend on what log diameters and lengths you are working with wouldn't it?

[terrifictimbersllc]

I charge hourly and people ask me all the time how much I can cut, or how long their job is likely to take.  Answering that is my estimate.  I'd ask him for an estimate given what you would be bringing him.  Then try him out for a day or whatever.  There are some customers I would like to charge $100 an hour to, because at $75 I often leave them with lumber for 20 cents or less.  But I haven't yet,  because they are the ones, not me,  that put out with great logs and good help.  Also there is more to his service than quantity.  Another guy can ruin your lumber for $60 an hour for example.

[Peter Drouin]

Peter, how can you gauge that?

Easy, scale out 2000' of big logs small logs  short ones long ones real bad ones and a few nice ones too. See what he can do. Just drop the logs off and go home and run your mill.
When he calls, go get your lumber pay him, go home and do all the math.
Then you will see what you just paid for your lumber to be cut.
Look to see how good it's cut.

My dad would say liars can figure, but figures don't lie.  ;D

[logman 219]

woodmizer says a lt15 will cut 320 bd, ft per hour,  or 2, . 16" x 10 feet logs,8 hours  16 logs so what is the problem??just cut the log!!!

[WV Sawmiller]

 ??? ??? ???

[logman 219]

invest in a 12ooo to 14000 pound  flat bed trailer might help

[customsawyer]

Does he have a edger?

[Ianab]

woodmizer says a lt15 will cut 320 bd, ft per hour,  or 2, . 16" x 10 feet logs,8 hours  16 logs so what is the problem??just cut the log!!!

2 problems.

Woodmizer says "up to" in the fine print. In the real world you have to go fetch more logs, move boards, slabs and sawdust etc. So being able to saw one log in 30 mins doesn't mean you can saw 16 in 8 hours. Larger or smaller logs also slow production.

And, he has 100 logs, with more coming in.

Hence the idea of sub-contracting out some of the sawing. Like some of the larger logs that an LT50 will be able to handle more efficiently, and would be hard work with an LT 15. Give a good sawyer, with an LT50, some ~28" logs and a cut list, and he should be able to produce some serious volume for that $100.

[Brad_bb]

Spot on Ianab!  If I can average one log per hour, I consider it a very good day!  It doesn't always happen especially when you are by yourself, edging on the mill, moving boards by yourself, getting your slabs to the slab pile, and dumping my sawdust(I use the 5 gallon bucket hanging on the chute).  If i've got any sizable logs, I won't get 1 per hour.  If I'm doing small logs, I'll get a bit more than 1 per hour.  Small logs into a 6x6 or 8x8 goes pretty fast, especially if you're not taking any boards off the sides.  Big logs require a lot more manual handling.

I am essentially by myself so far on this Ash on site.  I don't have anybody to help tail or drive the loader.  When I have my mill at home, inside, my 65 year old buddy helps me on the forklift to load and unload.

I do not have an edger.  I don't know if the other sawyer has one.

[paul case]

I would be happy to help you out but the commute is too expensive.

PC

[customsawyer]

You asked if his price of $100.00 is to high. If he has a edger than his production is going to be around 30% higher than if he don't. Just food for thought.

[YellowHammer]

Give him a look at your logs, or have him tell you what he wants.  Scout him out.  As long as the logs fall into his sweet spot, he should be able to easily answer the question of his expected or average production rate.  If he has employees, then he really ought to know it, especially having to pay them by the hour.

I would send him a trial whack of logs, for sure, I wouldn't enter into any type of long term agreement unless I had seen the results of his milling.  Are the boards sawn accurately and consistently?  Does the dimensional lumber have square sides?  Does the lumber have excessive waves or defects you will find unacceptable?  What is his turnaround?  How does he stack green lumber?  Is it bundled for transport or just piled up? Does he have a forklift or other means to easily load your trailer?  Does it have a lot of wane?  Is it cut through the pith? Does he do this for real, or is he just looking to pay off his equipment?  Does he have an edger and the people to run it?

Finally, judge him on how well he does, the overall results, the price per boardfootage, the quality of the product, etc? The bottom line, is he productive enough to justify the cost?  If so, go with it.  If not, don't. 

From your end, what can you do to optimize the process?  Cherry pick logs for him, if there is a payoff.  Get a trailer that can be loaded with forks?  Pre buck the logs to length so he is just sawing the wood you want, not overage. 

Or as some have asked, is this long term, and does the expense of sawing justify monthly payments on an upgraded mill for you?  We have a local tree service here who bought an LT50 for the sole purpose of keeping his crews busy on rainy days.  As a benefit, he sells the wood wholesale, at the rate he can produce it.  With your tree service operation, is this a viable alternative? 

Anyway, since you have a mill, you are an educated buyer, and know what to look for.

[Brad_bb]

It's not my tree service.  I'm paying a tree service to take down dead/dying ash.  I'm paying good money.  keeping the logs makes life easier for the tree service and gives me material.  My average cost per tree being taken down is pretty good right now especially with some of the places and equipment they need to use - bucket truck, skid steer etc.  They have had some easy trees and some very difficult ones that they've had to remove from among other good trees I didn't want damaged.

The guy I'm talking to with the LT50super hyd, has been milling for a few years at least.  I found him on Craigslist as it's free advertising there for him.  He's milled a lot of hardwood lumber, slabs, and mantles that he selling in a good location close to town.  Where he mills is a few miles away.  He can easily load and unload logs and lumber, but I don't know exactly what equipment he has. 

My plan is to separate out the bigger logs, trim and buck them.  Then I'll go over and meet him in person and check out what equipment he has besides the mill.  If all looks good I'll have his "cheap hauling" guy take a days worth of logs over to him and see how it looks.  I'll also talk to him about the most efficient way of stacking the boards from his mill to get them to my place and stack and sticker them.  I suspect the answer will be to flat stack at his place and send sticker with and then stack and sticker at my place to make sure the stack is neat.  I'm hoping if his cheap hauling guy (not sure if that is him or someone else), can bring the lumber back  and then I can load him with more logs and do that a number of times until he's finished all logs that will be efficient for him to do. 

[Peter Drouin]

Good plan,  I wish you all the luck with this and hope the guy with the 50 dose good for you.